Business Week: Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 16 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]540816[/snapback]</div>

Ok, sure, yeah... ask Hino why they didn't use it in their Truck then... I'm just pointing out the facts... you're the one wildly speculatin!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 16 2007, 10:58 PM) [snapback]540816[/snapback]</div>

How soon after the GM hybrid pickup debut do you think it will be until Toyota releases their's?

Working on the next generation design for the cars, while waiting for a marketing blunder from outside, is a good use of time. There's simply too many assumptions at play still.

GM is gambling that people won't be interested in genuine green (SULEV for trucks)... which is a risk, knowing that diesel has been a rather appealing choice in the past. Who do they think the competition is anyway?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 16 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]540816[/snapback]</div>

The auto magazines (Car and Driver, etc) have had multi-page (eight pages) advertisements in them for the Yukon Hybrid. Looks pretty good if you need an SUV if the technology and the hardware turn out to be reliable.

Funny thing is that many of the features read like they were copied from a Prius ad.

1. "Reshaped aluminum hood reduces weight and drag"

2. "Aluminum liftgate with fixed glass reduces weight and drag"

3. "Wheels are light weight and streamlined"

4. "Low rolling resistance tires"

5. "Grill and lower facia tailored for drag reduction"

6. "Navigation display works with rearview camera" (see attached picture -- looks familiar doesn't it.)

Some of you have made comments about the big engine, but if you need to tow heavy loads there the power is there. Anyway, just thought you might want to see the MFD.


It won't let me attach the picture, I will try to get it on next.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2007, 02:14 AM) [snapback]540820[/snapback]</div>

Umm, maybe you misunderstood his point. HSD has been put in vehicles with engine sizes from 1.5L to 3.3(V6) to 5.0L (V8). So technically, HSD does work with larger engines, that is a fact, not speculation. Why Toyota hasn't put it to better use in some of their vehicles like the RAV4 and Sienna are beyond me. Speculation can run amuck there since they have used it with large engines (up to 438 HP and 395lb torque)

 

Here is a link that should work for the Yukon MFD.

http://www.wbcoxco.com/yukon1w.jpg

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2007, 07:22 AM) [snapback]540709[/snapback]</div>

Note, it's a Hybrid Diesel... Diesel engine technology was deemed to be a competitor against hybrids (by some Euro originated groups). Anyway, it's already been replaced with Dutro Hybrid 2.0 (refer to the link below).

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/hino_to_roll_ou.html
Factor in torque values between electric and diesel engines, not just kilowatts.

Outside the US market, there's Estima Hybrid minivan which uses THS-C.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rval @ Nov 17 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]540980[/snapback]</div>

Estima-Hybrid now uses HSD.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2007, 07:22 AM) [snapback]540709[/snapback]</div>

It's already been replaced with Dutro Hybrid 2.0 (refer to the link below).

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/hino_to_roll_ou.html
Factor in torque values between electric and diesel engines, not just kilowatts. Like the Prius, conversional engine takes over at a given speed.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/toyota_and_hino.html
The FCHV bus uses twin fuel cell stacks and traction motors combined
with a version of Toyota’s THS-II hybrid drive and management systems (used in the Prius).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]540820[/snapback]</div>

I presented a fact that you can buy a V8 HSD. You are the one speculating why Hino does not use HSD in their truck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Nov 18 2007, 06:22 AM) [snapback]540983[/snapback]</div>

I'm aware, newer 'Estima Hybrid G' is known to use THS-II.

I'm just using Toyota's internal THS revision from it's business review reports.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/ir/reports/annu...ness_review.pdf
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environmen...lReports_12.pdf
For example;
THS-M, mid-hybrid
THS-C,
THS-II, aka HSD (from Toyota's marketing department) e.g. Prius II,
THS, e.g. Original Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]540820[/snapback]</div>

"HSD" is a just a marketing speak(from Toyota's marketing department) for THS-II. There are several THS types e.g. THS-II/THS-B, THS-C, THS-M, THS.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rval @ Nov 17 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]540985[/snapback]</div>

Thanks rval. I forgot about the HSD buses in Japan. They may not use ICE but Fuel Cells. Another fact about scalability of HSD that will extend from gasoline to hydrogen.

2-Mode can not extend to Fuel Cell because it is not an integrated design like HSD. In HSD, the powertrain and transmission are one unit closely working together. For 2-Mode, it is just a transmission replacement with a battery pack.

GM has another architecture (E-Flex) that will scale up from hybrid (Volt) to Fuel Cell. That still demand a huge and costly battery pack which is not mass market ready yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rval @ Nov 17 2007, 05:30 PM) [snapback]541001[/snapback]</div>

Assuming this is the reason, it is a business/scale issue. Not a technological issue of HSD being uncompatible with large Toyota vehicle SUVs. It not being an inherent flaw of HSD is the point we are trying to make.

 

Is GM's green tech better than Toyota's?

Prius is real, it gets better with every version. It can even be make into a plug-in at 100+ mpg.

GM is still all talk. Until they can get better mpg and less emissions that Toyota it's not green.

 

Rather than bothering to compare Toyota and GM, let's compare the government policies of Japan, Europe and the US with respect to encouraging consumers to buy the most green car possible. The auto companies will ultimately be forced to deliver.

If people want to continue to drive gas guzzling hogs, then they should have to pay a carbon tax to buy them. How about $7,500 extra dollars for that Toyota or GM giant truck or SUV that gets only 15mpg. The worse the fuel economy the greater the tax imposed. And on the flip side, cars that get better fuel economy, should get instant subsidies, like $10,000 off every Prius or HCH purchased.

Furthering this agenda, we should impose a tax on gasoline so that it always stays at least $3 a gallon with increases for inflation. Then we can use this tax money to help our country rather than the money going to the coffers of petrofascist governments. This public policy helps shape cars of the future, electric cars, fuel cell cars, mass transportation.

Problem is those conservatives who have their heads buried in the sand. They'd rather watch us go into debt and spend a trillion dollars in a war on Iraq, along with the unquantifiable loss of human life. Oh right, and also make sure abortion is illegal.

 

Whoa Hot topic here! For that last poster, get real, you impose a $7500 tax on a pickup truck you will drive a LOT of people out of business let along cause every municipality that uses a pickup or SUV for public safety and maintenance to have to hugely increase their budget and cause losses in other areas. Not smart!

Comparing America to other countries is also not right. First of all America has the largest network of highways and roads than any other nation on earth. If you look at Europe most of the roads there are small two lane roads barely wide enough for two small cars to pass. Second, most Americans are assholes who like to drive big expensive luxury SUV's and wouldn't be caught dead in a Prius. I know I drive here! Third, America has NO public transportation system to speak of, just a few lines around large cities, but outside of those areas you don't have much at all in PT. Fourth, America is HUGE compared to other countries, the only others that come close or larger are Russia, Australia, China and a few others. Most European countries are not much bigger than Texas, And you know how Texans like everything big! Keep in mind too that some of those countries larger than the US are also sparsely populated, Russia for example has Siberia, where its mostly frozen tundra.

Now back to the topic at hand. There are better solutions to creating a higher MPG pickup or SUV than a Hybrid with the current technology. First of all, the Prius was designed as a Hybrid from the ground up, not the other way around as is being done with all other hybrids. It is much more difficult to slap hybrid technology into an already existing platform and still keep the weight down. It takes a hell of a lot more to create a hybrid than sticking an electric motor to the back of an existing engine and slap some batteries on the chassis. What I don't understand, and it may be due to all the recent CARB crap from California and a few other states, is why the truck and suv manufacturers aren't using more diesels? Clearly a diesel is more fuel efficient and cleaner burning than a gasoline engine for the same displacement and horsepower. Take for example a Ford Excursion which weighs in at nearly 8000 pounds with a driver. It can get up to 24 miles per gallon highway and 19 City using the 6.0 liter powerstroke diesel properly tuned for its power band. That is better than most mini vans with a whole lot more room. Look at the VW Jetta TDI, it gets damned near what the Prius gets without any hybrid tech in it. As far as emissions go, the only downside of diesel is Nox, which they are finally able to control while getting more power output. Mercedes has their new diesel tech out now that gets 40-50 MPG in their large sedan, unfortunately the cost is near $60K or more for one.

So what does a family do that has 3 children? They get n SUV or Minivan, why, because they cant fit 3 children and themselves into a Prius let alone any other freaking car made today. Once you put two car seats in, there isn't any more room for a third. Trust me I know this for a fact! My current fleet consists of an F350 Crew cab dually Diesel pickup, which is not a luxury item for me, it is a necessity, I have horses and 6 acres. I also have a 2001 Crown Vic, the largest family sedan still being made, and with two car seats in that, the 13 YO has a hard time fitting in, and like all other cars today it only seats 5. So what other options are there? An SUV or a Minivan, and guess what, they equally suck at fuel economy. So if you could only afford one vehicle, and you needed room for your family, which would you choose? A Prius or similar small car that barely seats 4, or an SUV, like an Excursion that got 20 MPG but you could fit your entire family in and still have room for your shopping? Or how about this, take two cars whenever you want to go shopping or out to dinner or a movie? That is what we are now doing, driving the Prius and the CV which barely gets 18MPG.

As for a hybrid SUV, whoa baby thats a farce!! As you see above, my dilemma is having a vehicle I can take the whole family out in and still use as a daily driver for our 100 mile a day round trip to and from work with the wife and dropping off and picking up the two little ones, and still be economical. Cant be done! I considered the Hylander hybrid, until I priced one out. I could NOT find one for less than $42,000!!!! I might as well buy another Prius and we stick with driving two cars, but it again isn't practical as the one car would sit outside when we aren't using it just like the CV is, plus having to pay for insurance on another car, etc. etc.

Now onto the topic of engines. I see a few posts that show that some people don't understand horsepower or torque or displacement. Sometimes there are needs for larger engines and in fact there are times where a larger engine is indeed more fuel efficient. A properly sized engine to the vehicle so you get a good power to weight ratio is key to good fuel economy. If a car weighs in at 5000 pounds and you put a small engine into it thinking it will be more fuel efficient, eh wrong it actually has to work harder to move and maintain that vehicle at any given speed, which means it has to produce more power which requires more fuel. A larger engine that can easily propel the vehicle and maintain it at any given speed will use less fuel than the smaller engine thereby being more fuel efficient.

What really needs to be done is eliminate the Gasoline engine altogether, use diesels in the interim until a better type of power plant can be efficiently and non too costly to manufacture. Gasoline engines are really so old school its not funny. To produce the same amount of power and torque from a gas engine that you get out of a diesel requires high octane fuel, and lots of it, along with a lot of high tolerances and lots of hardware, the downside of which makes it a maintenance hog, that kind of power production in a gas engine causes early engine failure. OTOH, a diesel is designed with high power in mind, and produces that power at a lower RPM than gasoline engines, which right there makes it more fuel efficient. New technology in the diesel area has also produced a much cleaner burning diesel too, and diesels are cleaner to start with, especially if you use a bio diesel. Combine diesel technology with hybrid electric technology and you produce an even more fuel efficient vehicle that can easily haul a family of 5 and all their stuff. So my question is, Why hasn't it been done yet? Why all the hype over gasoline hybrids which to me other than the Prius, are a waste of money as they are not improving anything other than an image. People will not spend $4-6000 more on a pickup just because it is a hybrid and gets a whopping 6 MPG more if you drive it right, but if it were a diesel and got a consistent 6-8 MPG more than a gas engine in the same truck, people will buy it, because they can expect to get that 6-8 MPG without having to learn little tricks and such in order to get it. How many Prius owners here can say they didn't have to learn how to drive their Prius to get to 51+ MPG? If you went from a regular car to the Prius and drove it the same way you will not get 50+ MPG, in fact if you hit 40 you will be lucky. If I were to take my truck and load it to a set weight, then have someone with the same truck with the same weight but the 10cyl triton gas engine and went on a road trip, I will get much better MPG than the other truck even if I were to drive it like a nut and he were to drive it cautiously. One reason would be I have more power that is easily produced, second would be with more power I use less fuel to maintain the same speed. My truck weighs in at 8000# empty, and gets a consistent 15 MPG. If I were to drive it like I drive the Prius I can get 18, but would pay the price in maintenance as it would dirty up the oil from soot buildup, and cause a buildup of gunk on the valves, and would also produce more pollution as a diesel runs cleaner the hotter it gets and going slow does not make the diesel hot. On the highway though, once I am up to 65 MPH I get 18-20 MPG, and the funny part is when I slow to 55, I barely get 18 if at all, the truck is geared to do 65, as are most vehicles made today, more fuel efficient at 65 than any other speed. My Vic is the same way, at 68 MPH I get a nice consistent 24 MPG, but at 55 barely hits 20, my normal driving gets 18, barely. Too many stops, turns and hills to get good fuel efficiency from any of my cars, it takes quite a bit of watching what Im doing to get what I get on the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Nov 22 2007, 01:30 AM) [snapback]542785[/snapback]</div>

There's no reason that there couldn't be an exemption for commercial vehicles or large families. I know of one couple that just went out and bought a 4-door Chevy truck when they got pregnant with their first kid. A tax penalty of some kind I think would have made them think twice about being such a vehicle.

Comparing the US to other countries is not wrong. Just because the roads are larger and people like to drive big vehicles doesn't mean they should be able to do so without penalty (beyond high gas bills). Not having a viable public transportation system doesn't mean we all should go out and get large trucks/SUVs. Lastly, since America is so large and spread out, then it would make more sense to get a more fuel efficient vehicle.

I agree with you about the designing a hybrid from the ground up is the best way to get high mpg. However, I disagree that diesels are the panacea that you are making them out to be. Sure a diesel is better than a conventional gas ICE. However, you example of the Excursion mpg can't be compared since there are not any estimates for it. The only user report in a quick search with both mpg was I saw was 17/20, with most just saying 14-17 mpg combined. Most SUVs are around 17/24 based on new EPA. The Excursion is larger, but doesn't have better MPG than most minivans. The Jetta TDI (under last test) was 30/38, while I have heard that the 2008 is speculated to be in the 45 range, which I would bet is highway. Until I see actual mpg tests otherwise, the I would suspect it is going to be in the neighborhood of 35/43, combined 38, which is 20% worse than the 48/45 and 46 combined of the Prius. Until the TDI gets close to the hybrid city mpg, it isn't going to be savior of vehicles.

You argument about having 3 kids (I didn't quote for length) doesn't hold water IMO. Having 3 kids doesn't require a land barge that fits more than 8 people. It may require a larger vehicle, but minivans or larger midsize cars can be a good compromise between mpg and need. Sure you aren't going to get 30mpg, but you can still get in the low 20s to mid 20s, but better than the mid 10s. There definitely is a gap though for a 5-7 passenger vehicle in the 25-30K range that gets 30mpg, which is why I think Toyota would make out if they brought the Estima over to the US.

That's really inaccurate in my experience. Hitting 40 if you are lucky? People may get on PC and say they are only getting 35 or 38 mpg on their first few tanks, but this is almost always a function of commute (and them having no idea of their mpg in their previous vehicle--probably much worse than EPA as well). Yea, I got better MPG in the cit after I had some time in the Prius, but that's not because I was learning to drive it. Rather I was learning how to drive less aggressively, which is something that is not depending on your vehicle. The Prius just gives you more instant feedback to know how much you are rewarded by keeping a steady pace. Under normal conditions at first purchase, it took no effort to get 45-50 in the city. And highway travel doesn't require any learning to get 45-50mpg. My own experience and the number of people who come on saying they got 45-50 mpg on their first tank says otherwise.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Nov 22 2007, 11:30 AM) [snapback]542928[/snapback]</div>

Well Kudos to you! It took me several tanks to learn to drive the Prius to get the mileage I get now. When going from a big v8 heavy car to a little crap box 4 banger that wheezes to get out of its own way, it takes time to learn how to drive it. And just as you said, it takes a few tanks to get the numbers up, IE Learn how to drive it! There is a special way to operate this car, you cannot take a regular car and drive it the same exact way as a Prius. I have tried, and it actually uses more fuel to drive a regular car that way, IE Pulse and glide. Highway driving also takes different techniques to get rated mileage, drive it like a normal car and you will be lucky to get near 45. In 7 months i have put on over 18400 miles on the prius, I do a LOT of driving, and have driven a lot of different cars and trucks, and believe me when I say this, there is a big difference between the Prius and a car/truck when it comes to driving it efficiently. If you drive the Prius normally like any other car, then you will get the same numbers as the Jetta TDI or less. Turn off your MDF and drive a few weeks and see how your mileage is, I bet it will suffer.

As far as the excursions getting good numbers, first, the class of vehicle does not require EPA ratings, so you will not see any baselines on it. Go to Dieselstop forums and look around, you will find a lot of owners with Excursions and F250/350 diesel trucks getting consistent 20+ MPG with them. Search other forums where people have mini vans and such and you will find they seldom get better than 20 MPG. The Pacifica is rated at ~ 24 MPG, but real world numbers are putting them more around 18MPG. Honda Odyssey, rated between 16 and 25 MPG with a curb weight of under 4700 pounds. Toyota Sienna, curb weight under 4500 pounds, 16-23 MPG. Nissan Quest, curb weight under 4500 pounds, 16-24 MPG. All these examples are just a little over half the weight of an Excursion with a diesel engine and get similar if lower MPG numbers. All of these vehicles will be lucky to see 20 MPG in regular daily driving, where the Excursion, or F250/350 with diesels do get those kinds of numbers. So my point still stands, Diesels can improve MPG numbers no matter which vehicle they are in. In an Excursion with the 5.4 or V10, they are lucky if they see 15 MPG. Marry a diesel with hybrid technology and you could easily see 80 MPG. Study the differences between a gas engine vs a Diesel, you will soon understand why it is a better engine to use. I should have some results regarding actual MPG numbers for the Diesel Excursion/Superduties in a few days.