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Some Good Iraq News - For a Change

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by dbermanmd, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    Iraqi's are moving back to Iraq as the violence eases:
    http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695224628,00.html

    US casualties are at a near low even with the given fact we have 30,000+ more troops in theater and more offensive operations on-going:
    http://icasualties.org/oif/

    Iraqi civilian casualty rates are dropping significantly:
    http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/23538

    Agreed, its a short term trend - but it sure is appealing.

    There is a window of opportunity available to Iraqi's to get their act together. It is my hope they can do it.
     
  2. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    thats all just fine and dandy. now the iraqis want us to give them money to rebuild the areas/cities that we destroyed. what about us? how bout we get some funding to rebuild the cities in the usa we destroyed?
     
  3. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Nov 6 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]535433[/snapback]</div>
    what cities in the US did we destroy?

    And why would the Federal govt be responsible for rebuilding cities in the US save for the occasional Katrina - and even there i have some issues with that (i would like to know where all the federal monies for levee construction went and other protective measures, i would like guarantees that federal monies goes for the specific projects being funded, i would like assessments made as to what areas of NO are too high risk for human habitation, etc)

    And i am for aid Iraqi reconstruction and construction the same way we send aid money to dozens of countries - hopefully soon we will start seeing other countries step forward and private investments being made.

    Seems to be a very nice turnaround from before - A well done to Gen Petraeus and US Forces and Iraqi's! Looks like this might indeed be winnable.

    I am trying to find data on Iraqi economic indicators -
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    In this morning's local paper it was talking about 2.3 million internally displaced Iraqi citizens.... guess it depends what news you choose to believe. But I am glad to hear the good stats as well. I just don't think it means that everything is coming up roses.
    http://www.feedsyndicate.com/articles/7009058542
     
  5. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 6 2007, 10:27 AM) [snapback]535454[/snapback]</div>
    Good morning to you too.

    I am not saying we are looking at a bed of roses yet, but it encouraging to see that some of the buds we planed and fertilized with our blood seem to be taking root. There are lots of other encouraging signs too. Lets hope its working.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I'm with you on the hoping.
     
  7. tballx

    tballx New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 6 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]535452[/snapback]</div>
    Considering your gift for metaphor I would think you would get the point regarding the destruction of US cities. What would you call the opportunity cost of expending over $10 billion dollars a month overseas to fight a war for God know what reason while relative to where we began our own citizens have reaped nothing from it except a staggering deficit? If you don't think the federal government has a responsibility to return its taxes collected to its citizens in the form of aid to cities then where should it go? Eighty percent of the US population or better lives in cities. Funny how what started as an appealing short term trend transmogrified to a well done turnaround worthy of accolades. Let's try one more metaphor...Take your utterly transparent axes and grind them somewhere else. You remind me of the clerks that say "sir" instead of "Go to Hell." You really think you're fooling anyone?
     
  8. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tballx @ Nov 6 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]535492[/snapback]</div>
    Heck, i think the federal government wastes so much money as do the state and local people its torture.

    specifically with expenditures related to iraq - a large sum of that money stays within our economy in any event - whether it be buying tanks, bullets, paying soldiers, paying US construction companies, etc. it is not staggering by any stretch of the imagination given our $16 TRILLION gdp (give or take a few Trillion) and our fed govt budget of what $2 or $3 trillion dollars - its pocket change. how much pork our our representatives spending on bridges to nowhere???

    i am very libertarian in this regard - i dont think the feds have any right to play robin hood - rebuilding cities or funding them should be on a local or state level save for acts of God.

    And, how much foreign aid do we give a month and for what?

    And, how do you feel about the defense budget - and NASA - are those wasted $'s?

    And, how much are we still spending by keeping our forces in Germany or in SoKo, etc??
     
  9. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Nov 6 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]535433[/snapback]</div>
    :blink: :huh: :unsure: :huh:
     
  10. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Nov 6 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]535552[/snapback]</div>
    I am still confused about his statement referring to US cities we destroyed?
     
  11. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 6 2007, 12:30 PM) [snapback]535563[/snapback]</div>
    given basic fact: things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

    by putting $720,000,000 per day into the iraq war, that is the same amount we are not putting into rebuilding our infrastructure. therefore put $720 mill per day into war=take $720 mill per day that we could be spending to lets say, build better levees, aaaaa, maybe better pay to inspectors who inspect bridges, aaaaa, more pay to teachers, aaaa, more police, aaaaaa, anybody for border security, port security...if we're putting out and not taking in, we're destroying our cities by the examples above..i dont know about gotham, but last time i was there it was no hong kong, if u catch my drift.
     
  12. tballx

    tballx New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 6 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]535523[/snapback]</div>
    If your argument is that since GDP is large, then the manner in which government collects and distributes taxes collected is irrelevant then there is not much more to say. You clearly don't have the data to make that assertion.

    I'm not sure what you mean by play "Robin Hood" but ad hom attacks are simply more bluster.

    How I feel about NASA is irrelevant. You are then one having trouble understanding the previous post.
     
  13. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Nov 6 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]535745[/snapback]</div>
    I think this is called "lost opportunity cost" and its a common valuation. If I got the term right, that is.

    I understand the concept, but our legislators are voting in millions for pet projects in their home districts rather than addressing the serious issues of infrastructure. Buildings, museums and other projects that .... surprise! ... get named after them are not-so-subtle ways of lining the pockets of their contributors, cronies and friends. We should have a law that nothing can be named after a living legislator; once the guy dies, if you still respect as much as you did when he held the nation's purse-strings, by all means name your project after him.

    If they weren't spending it on Iraq, they would be spending it some other way, but not on infrastructure. There is no pressure from the population to limit spending, and Dr. Berman and I are pretty lonely in the Republican Party with the departure of all the rest of the "limited government" conservatives. I suspect he and I could fashion a hit-list of entire cabinet-level departments that could be eliminated wholesale that would put the old Grace Commission to shame. Somewhere, we Republicans traded the words "limited government" for "compassionate", and in so doing created a much harder life for the very ones who were to be the subjects of all that compassion.
     
  14. Jeannie

    Jeannie Proud Prius Granny

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 6 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]535563[/snapback]</div>
    with some interpretive license -
    depending on what 'we' means, if 'we' is a group of people who are the wealthy and privileged, then 'we', throughout the history of our cities, often ignored opportunities to use that wealth and privilege to improve the lot of 'them'. This, in turn, contributed to urban decay, poorer health and nutrition, etc.

    It's sort of like the view 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence', but with an added twist - if I'm on the less green side of the fence and you're on the greener side, then YOU made the grass on my side less green, and furthermore, YOU are doing everything in your power to keep me on the opposite side from YOU.

    Now there, doc - does that make you want to repent your evil ways and give me all your wealth and privilege???
     
  15. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jeannie @ Nov 7 2007, 01:25 AM) [snapback]535968[/snapback]</div>
    You have me totally confused now. Are you suggesting some form of socialism or the govt playing robin hood?

    i would posit that if we paid less taxes we would have more income to give to charity or other worthy causes.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Nov 7 2007, 12:39 AM) [snapback]535952[/snapback]</div>
    For the most part i agree with you. it is amazing that there are no responsible adults controlling the check book in DC. I would cut the fed govt to bare bones, get rid of entire cabinet positions, cut programs right and left. i am a big believer in SMALL govt and local and state control. they employ too many people, waste too much money and hinder the true engines of this great culture and society - individual participation in the marketplace of economic growth, charity, and self improvement.
     
  16. Jeannie

    Jeannie Proud Prius Granny

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 7 2007, 06:53 AM) [snapback]536062[/snapback]</div>
    Actually, I'm not suggesting anything at all - just adding two cents to the kind of tangent that political discussions often seem to take here! One person makes an emotional reply to a post, then someone else tries to pick nits about the the 'factual' content of the emotional reply. From a 'logic' standpoint, the discussion evolves into a 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' thread - so someone else gets frustrated, and starts making other emotional replies that descend into personal attacks.

    So, I was being sarcastic.

    It looks to me as if your original post was intended to spread 'hope', not 'contention' (and I think earlier in the thread, Evan applauded such a presumed intention). I also applaud you for this - thank you.

    My personal political opinions tend to be far different than what I believe yours to be, and I'm pig-headed enough that I doubt you'd be likely to sway those political opinions. But I get frustrated when threads like these descend into the arena of personal attacks, name-calling, etc. So, I repeat - thank you for expressing hope.
     
  17. RinMI

    RinMI New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Nov 6 2007, 06:00 PM) [snapback]535745[/snapback]</div>
    Pretty strong words from someone who chooses to live in a region that is quite often hit by hurricanes and thus benefits from federal disaster aid.
     
  18. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 6 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]535411[/snapback]</div>
    It's been chilly in my hometown these last few weeks...confirming that man-made GW is a lie.