UTSUNOMIYA, Japan -- Honda Motor Co. Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said so-called plug-in hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles offered too few environmental benefits for his company to pursue, and noted that an advanced hybrid vehicle called the Chevrolet Volt that General Motors Corp. is aiming to launch in a few years made little sense. If Honda was able to come up with low-cost, safe and high-performing lithium-ion batteries, the Japanese executive hinted Honda would rather use them for an electric vehicle. "My feeling is that the kind of plug-in hybrid currently proposed by different auto makers can be best described as a battery electric vehicle equipped with an unnecessary fuel engine and fuel tank," Mr. Fukui told a group of journalists Tuesday at the company's research and development center here, north of Tokyo. He said he was referring to plug-in hybrids such as the Chevy Volt. "Assuming that we can come up with a really high-performing battery that we are working on currently, I think a battery electric vehicle [that uses such battery technology] would actually be a plus from an environmental point of view." Mr. Fukui's cautious comments about an early deployment of lithium-ion batteries to realize a vehicle like the Volt followed a similarly guarded view outlined earlier this week by Toyota Motor Corp. (See related article.) Japan's No. 1 auto maker on Monday noted that it is taking a "step-by-step" approach to developing plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, and mapped out a more cautious strategy than rival GM for using lithium-ion batteries to power hybrid cars for longer distances on electricity alone. GM, in a series of public announcements, has said it plans to bring an advanced hybrid vehicle called the Chevrolet Volt to the U.S. market by as early as 2010. The Volt concept shown by GM at the Detroit auto show earlier this year would use lithium-ion batteries to operate for as many as 40 miles on electricity alone. GM has promoted the Volt concept and its aggressive timetable as part of a broader effort to burnish its image as an auto industry green technology leader. Toyota executives on Monday poured cold water on some of GM's claims for its Volt technology, as did Honda's Mr. Fukui Tuesday. The executives said Toyota is concerned that many customers may not accept a plug-in hybrid electric car that has to be recharged every day, despite the enthusiasm for the plug-in hybrid concept from environmental groups and from a relatively small group of electric-vehicle enthusiasts. On Tuesday, Mr. Fukui stressed Honda could easily develop a plug-in hybrid within two years. "But I don't think that would contribute to the global environment, to reduce [global warming gas] emissions," he said. Lithium-ion batteries are commonly used now to power laptop computers and other small consumer appliances. But overheating lithium-ion laptop batteries have been blamed recently for a small number of fires. Auto industry executives have expressed concern about the tendency of lithium-ion batteries to overheat, and GM has said it is reviewing a number of different lithium-ion technologies before settling on batteries for the Volt.
I wonder what would be Honda's opinion on plug-in Hybrids if they owned the patents for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate LiFePO4 batteries? Japanese companies typically will only sell a product that contains parts that they directly manufacture or have strong control of. LiFePO4 battery technology - which is ideal (perfect) for hybrid cars - apparently is American owned and you can bet that no Japanese automaker will breathe a word about LiFePO4 batteries for fear that it will drive up the value of the American companies that own the patents. Instead, the Japanese auto manufacturers will keep running down plug-in hybrids to keep these somewhat underfunded American battery startup companies from prospering, which would weakening the stranglehold that the Japanese auto manufacturers currently have on Hybrid car technology. Side Note: A visionary US Federal Government would recognize that next-generation battery technology leadership is the linchpin or cornerstone technology for all passenger vehicles of the not too distant future and would make certain that America is the unquestioned leader (in advanced battery technology).
Joe, I am not sepcialize in Chemistry or battery, for that matter, but a bit of googling shows that ithium-Iron-Phosphate LiFePO4 batteries have been used in several countries (China, Taiwan, Canada). Apparently, one could patent some improvements with nano technology, but I doubt that patents are really that difficult to by pass. Smart people could find ways around patents. This happens EVERYDAY in every engineering department (US included). There was an article (in IEEE Spectrum) on A123's battery technology. What is special is their cathode design with nano technology, not the LiFePO4 basic configuration. The way I see it, Japanese are being what they are, being cautious and conservative. I won't read too much into it. Besides, the automotive cycle has not been litigious for years. They know lawsuits only make lawyers happy. They are more into profiting and mutual licensing when necessary. Again, I am no expert in this battery field, but I am the inventors of 5 US engineering patents.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe1347 @ Oct 23 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]529439[/snapback]</div> I assume you are referring to A123systems developing the battery pack for the concept car, Volt. A123's uniqueness is the nano-technology which allows eye poping charge/discharge and life cycle. It is ideal for hybrids like Prius where HIGH power and LOW energy is necessary for those short bursts.... just enough to synergize with the ICE at ideal most efficient state. For plug-in hybrids, more energy (capacity) is more important since the pack will be bigger and higher number of cells... therefore, more power can be discharged. A123 cells (even the HD ones) have less energy than other Li-ion cells because of the lower voltage by nature of the chemistry. There are other LiFePO4 manufacturers, although not in Japan but in China, Taiwan and Korea. For example LiFeBATT make bigger cell than A123 M1HD cells. Also there is Kokam that makes huge up to 200AH Superior LiPo cells that is used in SmartEV. They have a very unique manufacturing and the cells are about the size of a magazine.... very easy to package. Another idea is to use hybrid battery. Say, a small (1kWh) A123 pack or Ultra Capacitors combined with a huge (5kWh) Kokam pack. For heavy acceleration and regen, use A123 pack and send the overflowing juice to the kokam pack. This should keep the pack at a reasonable price, size and weight.
The more the Japanese downplay the benefits of PHEVs, the more I wonder if GM really will overtake them in green technology. Up to now, I figured that Toyota would have their similarly efficient plug-in around the time the Volt hits the road, but now I wonder... :huh:
GM doesn't have a lock on A123 because they'll be selling kits for the Prius in 2008. As for Honda, I see them skipping the PHEV and going directly to EV. They're planning on being the first/best for EV, thus making whatever they put out synonymous with EV the way the Prius has become synonymous for hybrid. They lost the hybrid race. They plan on winning the EV race. More power to them. (Just don't make it ugly or cheap, please.)
As I have said in many posts Honda is a laggard now in hybrid and electric technology. Honda has just one hybrid now and its a mild hybrid. Of course they are uninterested in plug ins because their hybrid system is not really adaptable to them. Then Honda introduces its 'dedicated' hybrid in 2009 it will probably still be an assist or mild hybrid but with a really good gas engine. That is their route and while I still like them they are a gas dominant company and will continue to be one. GM will be the number two hybrid maker soon and have beaten Honda to the punch with full hybrids.
On this battery issue, I see nothing wrong for any automaker to be conservative. Can you imagine the cost of a total battery recall? If I were Honda CEO, I would have made the same decision to be conservative. Unlike GM, the business of Honda is doing very well. No need to take such big risk.
How can Honda have a plug-in if all their hybrid systems are mild systems? They're good at giving us mild systems which brings more people into the hybrid stream because of the lower "premium" associated with mild systems. But hey, if Honda rather do EVs, I'm all for it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rigormortis @ Oct 23 2007, 05:10 PM) [snapback]529420[/snapback]</div> Guys, I think we're missing the real story in this piece, he's saying that Honda are working on a new type of lithium-ion battery and when it comes, we can ditch the engine completely! I think the title of this thread should be changed to "Honda very interested in plug-ins" !
The problem with Honda is they listen to the engineers too much. If Toyota listened to the engineers there would be no Prius. Engineers make sense and consumers don't. Well, consumers buy the cars and if they want a car that has unlimited range even though 80% of them go no more than 20 miles 95% of the time that is what they are going to buy. So until they make an electric car that can recharge in the same time as a gas fill up and as common as gas stations consumers won't buy an EV. Plug-in is a good compromise.
Although I have been guity of it I'm not sure it's right to knock the Honda Hybrid. It performs very well on the highway as far as fuel economy goes. The Prius is superior in the environment most drivers spend the most time in, urban areas.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Oct 23 2007, 08:41 PM) [snapback]529483[/snapback]</div> Selling kits to third parties is not the same as selling to Toyota directly. GM has an OEM lock on A123.
Having been an Acura owner for 12 years before I bought my Prius, and knowing that the Acura line is aimed at the performance enthusiast as their line has lots of engines that have more HP than most people need, I am not surprised at this announcement. It makes me glad I bought the Prius, and I have no regrets in doing so even though the Acura dealer where I had my car serviced offered lifetime guarantees on all repairs. With an announcement like this, perhaps it will be Honda that is losing business in a few years. Personally, with the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory report's conclusion that the current electrical generating capacity in the US is capable of powering some 80+ percent of all light-duty vehicles currently on the road in the US, I think this kind of announcement is irresponsible. Electric/PHEV are and will be more efficient than other technologies. Perhaps Honda is being too complacent. This announcement sounds like it comes from a western educated management team, i.e., profits at all costs. But, if you look at this post, perhaps it is apparent why they did this. They believe that Hydrogen is the way to go even though the scientific community is coming to the realization that Hydrogen is not the way to go.
i would be wary of buying a honda. the way they shoehorned their battery behind the back seat is quite... i would expect their engineers to commit suicide for such disgraceful engineering.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACORNBLUES @ Oct 24 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]529745[/snapback]</div> Oops... You may have to include Toyota engineers in that group suicide. According to you and by the same token, the Camry and several other Toyota hybrids are equally disgraced. :blink: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 24 2007, 06:39 AM) [snapback]529633[/snapback]</div> Of course it is OK! This IS Priuschat, is it not ? Cheers; MSantos
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Oct 24 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]529647[/snapback]</div> About 4-6 months ago, the Washington Post newspaper had an article stating GM has signed development contracts with two U.S. battery companies. One of the companies is A123; I don't remember the name of the other company. The contract contains a clause that prohibits the companies form selling any product that results from the GM funded R&D to any other auto company. This makes sense. Why should other auto companies benefit form GM funded R&D. The contract does not prohibit the companies form selling their other products to auto companies, like Teslar. How in the world are they going to develop a battery, design the equipment to manufacture the battery, build a factory to build the battery in 2 years for the 2010 Volt????? Talk about blowing smoke!!! That's assuming the R&D is successful.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACORNBLUES @ Oct 24 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]529745[/snapback]</div> Yeah.. what MSantos said lol.
I think Honda is looking more at the Japanese market where people drive smaller cars and there's a lot less driving long distances and in that case, he's right the environment impact of hybrids is probably not as significant. Due to much more indulgent use of gasoline via large vehicles and/or distances in the U.S., I don't think his statement holds true here. I suspect Fukui is betting that by the time the EVs have been picked up in Japan that some sort of breakthrough will have occurred allowing fast charging, fast battery swapping, or something that fixes the range issue for the American market. This would allow Honda to be leader in the pack when EVs come along by not expending effort on plug-in/hybrid development. I'm pretty sure he's wrong about that bet, but either way, it'll be beneficial overall since I'm sure Honda's EV R&D will advance future personal transportation as a whole.
