BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boo @ Oct 10 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]523847[/snapback]</div>

He has raised no questions that has not already been raised over and over and over and been discussed the same.

Numbers and figures are great if they "confirm" what you already know, but I never let numbers defy what I know.... scientist are continually correcting what they "know" to match reality.

Some folks need numbers to snuggle up to and others can take someone at thier word... its not like there's much money on the line here, but the buyer wants someone else to spend thousands on tests that he will never recoup when the general public already supports the plate...

If it were your company would you invest so?

I've seen so called facts and figures all my life designed to pursuade those who "can be" pursuaded with facts and figures... and their tainted and squewed to match the desired "image".

Truth no longer matters in the world of advertisements... only image......

That truth is why he wants the facts, and that truth is why I don't believe the "so called" facts..... but he doesn't realize that those who depend on what they see and understand become vulnerable to snake oil salesman because the majician only has power because he knows what you see and will think.

Many of the Einsteins of the world take no care to spell correctly or use proper grammar, yet thier concepts are deep in other ways......

Those who spend all thier time crossing the T's and dotting the I's, often miss the obvious.

If he wants "proof"..... great!... let him generate it on his own, he shouldn't expect anybody owes him proof before he will buy... if he doesn't want to buy... no one needs him too.......

But he still wants to complain and gripe that his fears are not soothed and his doubts are not gone.........

I'm pretty surprised folks like that ever buy the prius in the first place..... few really understand the true workings of the enginneering before they buy most things, yet they are trusted because so many who have bought before vouch for them.

If he wants to compare this to psychic fortune telling because it has nothing he can put his hands on, then so be it... he shouldn't buy the plate.

If he can prove the plate works on his own without it costing himself or someone else a fortune, then lets here it!......

Because no matter what "proof" you come up with, folks like himself will pick it to pieces and nullify it.....

The proof is in the tasting of the pudding or the pie, if you have to understand all the ingredients before you partake, then you will miss out on allot in life.

Remember intelligence is not always measured by outward parameters....

Those who depend on outward parameters, miss the simple things in life like love, relationship etc..... see if you can put that on paper and understand it?????

Toyota put a plate there for some reason and they admit they engineer thier cars for "comfort".....
It makes common sense that a thicker plate would add some performance abilities they didn't see as a priority....

Mark Twain said the problem with common sense is it isn't common!

And sometimes people are just too smart for thier own good and they become dangerous because they only see and know facts, but possess no wisdom or understanding with it.

Once I grew up, I concluded I don't always have to "understand" everything, and I also don't have to in order to enjoy and benifit from it!

I'm amazed that Poor Jimbo is already being depicted as the Victim here.... why don't you defend a fine company thats is doing an awesome service that people are more than happy to pay for?

If someone doubts and questions.... fine, but when he starts cutting down everyone else that is sold on the product, he deserves a counterstrike, don't start turning the aggressor into the victim... someone might accuse you a being a liberal!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 10 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]523881[/snapback]</div>

So just point that out as IsrAmeriPrius did on page 49, and which JimboJones then gratefully acknowledged. No need to call someone a troll for asking a question.

Again, it's hard going thru this thread's 1000 posts, the overwhelming number of which are not useful. That's why I'm still hoping for a Greatest Hits collection for Christmas.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 10 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]523881[/snapback]</div>

Jeez, I already said that I like the Plate a lot. Then I said that posing a question in apparent good faith should not be answered with ad hominem attacks. It's not personal.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 10 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]523881[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I'm considerably left of liberal. But why should that matter?

* * * * *

That's it. Not planning on reading this thread again unless someone comes out with its Greatest Hits collection or Brian announces BT's new products on it.

 

Based on your criteria... you will be back.....

Anyone is welcomed here..... but Jackals have historically loved to take their shot at a product that can only defend itself with its sheer customer satisfaction and beauty.

I said the liberal thing because if you remember the post you read, you will see the repeating pattern of how the attacker of the product mysteriously becomes the victim.

No one minds questions, and attempts to prove or disprove the integrity of the plate..... as long as its honest and at their own expense......... No one is obliged to spend big bucks to sooth anybodys fears.

It gets weary listening to people who want someone else to foot the bill and they don't intend to buy anyway because they are insecure and cannot be fixed, so they only cause trouble.

Lets face it..... if the money is an issue, they really shouldn't own a prius..... get a corolla instead!

There is an extremely small number of folks who regret their purchase of the plate... maybe none????..... that should be good enough to take a chance with the bucks....

If they won't buy because of the money, they never intended to in the first place or they let their fears paralyze them and become a fly in the ointment of BT Plate bliss!

No one has a problem buying what he believes in.... just some people can't believe in anything, not even themselves, so they have real struggles with anyone else............ again.. that would be a liberal!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 10 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]523919[/snapback]</div>

OK. I'm back. It's like Mallomars. Not very useful. But tasty ... until I get sick again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boo @ Oct 10 2007, 05:37 PM) [snapback]523923[/snapback]</div>

Wow! At the rate the posts are pilling up, we will be at 1,100 in no time (quite likely before the end of the month). Should we start a pool for how long to 2,000? Anyone for July of 2008?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 10 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]523881[/snapback]</div>

I beg to differ, and if you look at the questions I asked, and the non-answers by BT Tech in all his posts about his plate, you will see the difference.

I'm not interested in playing your slanging match, especially since you really take this personally. It might be a good idea to step back, take a deep breath and re-consider your priorities in life - are your ad hominem attacks in this website, over a piece of metal, really part of what you aspire to in life?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boo @ Oct 10 2007, 05:37 PM) [snapback]523923[/snapback]</div>

Just take it in moderation.... No need to overdo it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimboJones @ Oct 11 2007, 09:04 PM) [snapback]524363[/snapback]</div>

Thats and excellent idea...and a good question on your part.... I wonder where you came up with the inspiration?

Lets see who can step back the longest.

 

deleted... double post due to priuschat locking up for about 60 seconds when I hit the submit button.... I got a "server shutting down" error, so I hit reload and thats what happened.....sorry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Oct 11 2007, 08:12 PM) [snapback]524391[/snapback]</div>

windstrings, it seems you can't exercise patience.... Too many clicks of the submit button???? It would appear you could not step too far back for very long.... On our way to 1,200 posts....

 

Okay, here is my report of how my Prius' handling has changed since installing the BT Plate.

Today, we are having a storm. Heavy winds, incredible rain... the usual winter thing for us here.

Previously, semis passing me would push me noticably sideways on the highway.
Wind was easily felt, also pushing me sideways.
With the OEM tires, I hydroplaned twice, at under 50 MPH.

We did change the tires (I highly recommend the Michelin Hydroedge tires), and that did resolve hydroplaning issues, and made the car feel more secure in wet weather. Did not resolve the "pushing" issue as far as semis, hard gusting winds, etc.

Okay, this morning, I'm driving through what amounts to a car wash with all the blowers on, doing 55 - 60 MPH, and huge semis are passing me, and I might as well have been on dry pavement
They aren't pushing me.
I can SEE the wind, as the trees are whipping around, but I'm not drifting in my lane at all. I'm not having to countersteer much (not noticably).
Some of the puddles out there were big enough that I felt the drag going through them, but did not for a moment feel like I was disconnected from the highway, the car did not shimmy at all.

Climbing the mountain (two-lane road, kinda rough, windy), the Prius handled the tight curves very well, as good as on dry pavement (it is still storming, after all), and I was able to do a 20-mph curve at 40 mph, without any sway, or skidding, or drifting.

So, yes, in my opinion, the BT Plate is a valuable modification, based on the road conditions that I experience.

 

Thanks Rae Vynn for taking the time to post your review of our BT Tech stiffening plate. I am glad you are plased with your purchase!!

For those of you that are interested in purchasing one for your Prius, we currently have them in stock and ready to ship. Please visit the link listed below that makes it fast and easy to purchase one.

Purchasing products through the PC (Prius Chat) store is a way that users can help contribute to this site.





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 18 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]527319[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 18 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]527319[/snapback]</div>

I had a different - not bad, but different - experience. I still have the OEM tires (at 32K and still looking good) - I know the Prius will handle better with upgraded tires, and I suspect I'll be doing that in the next month or so.

After installing the stiffening plate, there was a noticeable (to me, anyway) difference in cornering - much better handling.

On the other hand, there wasn't (to me, anyway) any noticeable difference in handling in windy conditions or when I'm passing - or being passed by - a bus or large truck.

While I have been a little disappointed, I'm not complaining - in my view, the plate did provide better handling some of the time. But I think new tires will have a bigger impact than the plate did.

Just my two cents - no axe to grind.

 

Thanks GreenGene for your purchase and comments regarding our BT Tech plate.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreenGene @ Oct 18 2007, 02:14 PM) [snapback]527382[/snapback]</div>

 

It's no different than having a psychologist...or is it a psychiatrist, I can never remember which one can write prescriptions...telling you to take an antidepressant or some such..

He or she takes his best guess at what might make the problem better, you try it, then report back if it worked or not.

I mean, really, that's how it would go, right...?

---------------

This is how the supposedly sophisticated medical arts treat our bodies...asking US to tell THEM if we feel better.

Surely relying on the same process to determine if the plate works or doesn't work for each of us and our automobile, isn't asking too much...is it...?

For me, it's not.

 

Here is my review of the BT Plate after installing it myself for less than 1 month.
We don't have strong side wind here (unless you travel on Bay Bridge often, I don't), so
I can't comment on that.

On my route back home, there is a 270 degree ramp where I descend down to get on freeway.
With my BMW 540iA, I could do 42mph before the 235f/255r tires start to "complain" about it.
Before Plate was installed, my Prius could do 31mph with the skinny 185 tires.
After Plate installed, my Prius still does the same 31mph.
-> no gain in roadholding in my book. A bit disappointed.

On my route of commute, there are two roailroad crossings.
With Plate installed, my Prius has a more solid feel to it when going over the crossings.
So much so that I can say that it feels as solid as my BMW '98 540iA. Not bad.
-> significant gain in rigidity.

Is it worth the $$$? That is very sibjective. I will not comment on that, either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 18 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]527518[/snapback]</div>

The psychiatrist is the dealer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 18 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]527518[/snapback]</div>

They do more than guess, they analyze your symptoms, determine your state of mind, and such. They also prescribe drugs that have properties able to deal symptoms within what they determined for you. For example, whether SSRIs are more likely to improve your condition or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 18 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]527518[/snapback]</div>

I hope not. I'm not going into a debate about "good" and "bad" doctors, though.

---------------

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 18 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]527518[/snapback]</div>

I doubt that surgeons dig into your body and excise things out, and rely only on you telling them that you feel better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 18 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]527518[/snapback]</div>

Well, a doctor can give you a placebo and make you feel cured.

BT Tech is only trying to make a living, good on him for doing so, and at least he's not stealing people's money (you guys bought from him willingly). However, the issue for me isn't whether he is giving people what they want, it's whether his product is actually doing what he and you are claiming.

Those for the plate have the basis of their argument as follows: "After shelling out $169, I feel a difference in handling/wind/truck/stiffness etc, therefore the plate works".

Those like me, who are NEITHER FOR NOR AGAINST the plate (note that statement again), have as an argument the following: "a direct measurement test proved the plate does not increase the stiffness of the Prius chassis (i.e. allende's test). However, many people are claiming that it does, so how can we quantify the effect of the plate, to eliminate the placebo effect?" Note also that the issue is NOT whether the BT plate is stiffer than the OEM plate, it's whether a stiffer whatever plate in that location actually makes a difference in chassis stiffness.

On the other hand, we all like to buy different waxes/soaps/oils/wash mitts etc, with there being little difference between these, and so if happiness is the only criterion, then whether the BT plate's effect is significant or not is moot.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimboJones @ Oct 18 2007, 06:17 PM) [snapback]527542[/snapback]</div>

Regardless of your claim to the contrary, based upon reading your numerous posts on the subject, it is readily apparent that you are firmly in the naysayers column concerning this product.

I have previously directed your attention to an extensive explanation by Ken Stewart, a mechanical engineer with vast experience in the field of automotive frame and suspension design and testing, who concluded that Allannde's test is scientifically invalid.

Brian of BT Tech has a successful business which has nothing to do with car modifications. He developed the BT Plate out of his love for automobiles and based upon his extensive racing experience. The plate is not for everyone, but he makes it available to those of us who appreciate the difference that it makes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Oct 18 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]527560[/snapback]</div>

I can't help you feeling personally attacked by this. However, you're a grown man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Oct 18 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]527560[/snapback]</div>

Well, where do I start? That critique is full of holes, yet it seems to be the "staff of light" that the pro-BT plate people hold high to justify their purchase. I'm sure Ken is competent, but his critique lacks strength.

Here, let's go through Ken's critique:
"One of our jobs at the time was to measure the strength of the frame of a certain Ford vehicle, (which one I don't remember.) The methodology used at that time was for us to take this frame to a company that specialized in taking these measurements and that is all they did. This company had a special fixture for attaching the frame to a Rota table concrete structure and then measuring the deflection of the frame at over 240 points along the frame. We would then make our modifications and the test would repeat, often taking 6-8 hrs per test In this time, the frame would be rotated at different angles to simulate loading. It was imperative that the frame was mounted in this fashion. At all of the measuring points, we were able to measure the results in .0001"! These tests were often very expensive and even the auto manufacturers often balked at the bills they got for executing these tests."

Vehicle chassis tests of that sort require that deflection, resonance, stiffness and flex be measured directly, using design loads at frequencies based on projected usage. The chassis needs to be mounted specifically and thoroughly instrumented to characterize its loading and frequency responses. All good so far.

"I have read Alan's data and although I give him a lot of credit for going through all of this to conduct his own tests, I am sorry to have to say but the methodology is completely wrong and subject to many errors and inconsistent results. When you are measuring a chassis, frame or a uni-body structure, you can not have the wheels or any other compression type devices coming in contact with the ground to achieve accurate results."

The wheels on Allan's tests did not contact the ground.

"This is why when we tested the frames we had to bring the car to the facility and the cars actual frame/body was bolted to the concrete barriers. This was done so that there were no outside forces like the tires, springs, shocks and struts that compress and expand making any measurements suspect at best."

None of the above were in contact with the ground in Allan's test.

"In addition, the testing should be done on 3 axis that can induce loads to the structure, none of this was done in Alans test."

Incorrect. Testing done on 3 axes characterises the deformation and frequency responses of the chassis with given loadings in 3 directions. You do this if you want to see the 3D deformation of the chassis. However, the deformation being looked at in Allan's test is being measured in one axis - the fact that 2 axes are not measured is irrelevant, since a deformation in the "vertical" direction (i.e. perpendicular to the ground) is all that's required to test the effectiveness of the BT plate. Let's go on.

"It is my opinion that Toyota added the brace in that location because they knew there was significant flex occurring in the latter portion of the vehicle's structure. To say it was there because there was a battery sitting on top of it is horse manure. "

Well, Ken's opinion is worth much less than his KNOWLEDGE. Unless he got information from Toyota, his opinion does not substitute for fact.

"The company I worked for later went on to do testing for race car sponsors and it was imperative that they had the best/stiffest chassis so that the cars of that day could withstand the 1+ G turns of that era. In order to test these chassis' with a degree of precision, we built a device that we called a twist fixture and would attach this to the chassis but again we would attach the fixture to concrete and the actual fixture would suspend the chassis in order to get accurate measurements. What was great about this fixture is that we could simply lower one side using a type of tie-rod end to lower or raise the chassis with great precision and measure the deflection at number of points along the chassis. The fixture was also able to be rotated so that additional forces could be placed during the measurement process and documented. "

Fine. This describes 3D loading and response characterization. This does NOT invalidate Allan's test - Allan's test was for static deflection measured in one axis.

"He also conducted no tests of the effect of compression while measuring the amount of deflection anywhere on the body under amy type of load."

Just what components will have any measurable compression, when the compressibles (shock, springs, tires) have been taken out of the measurements? Sorry, this doesn't even seem to be looking at the test done by Allan.

"The methods used for measuring were not proven to be scienfiically accurate and the person (Alan) in this case is not known to be proficient in using scientific meausring tools (un-calibrated) with an unknown degree of accuracy."

Reading a ruler is scientifically accurate. One does not need a qualification to read a ruler.

"A vehicle in motion is also affected by outside forces such as road surfaces, gravitational loads (g-forces) and aerodynamic forces which put additional loads, (sometime great amounts) on the vehicles body."

This is referring to the loads imparted to the chassis. All true, but not relevant to the static test done by Allan. If you can't bend the chassis by the vehicle's weight (say 3000 pounds divided by 4 corners = 750 pounds), then the stiffness effect is not significant. Perhaps Allan could have placed weights on the car's unsupported corner in his tests, to improve his deflection curve range.

"Having a part that stiffens the body would counteract these effects to an extent. The more stiffening the part provides, the greater the result will enhance the differences the driver feels. "

Fine, but the issue is whether the part "stiffens the body", and Ken has not offered any scientific proof that it does, only his "opinion".

"I never claimed to be a race car driver but there is no doubt in my scientific mind that the BT plate is providing a stiffening effect on the body of the car. This would explain why the car feels more stable to me when driving it."

Fine also, but there is likely a big difference between what Ken feels and what actually happens.

"What is in question is the amount of stiffening that the BT plate provides and I personally do not have the inclination or financial ability to dive into that."

And this statement negates all the arguments that Ken gave above. He's basically admitted that he does not know how much stiffening the BT plate provides. Surprising that he took all that time and effort to try to discredit Allan's test, then goes on to say that he really doesn't know anyway.

"In response to your post, you are never going to see a deflection of 1/2-1"! A 1" deflection is huge and would be indicitive of either a very poorly designed body or something that was in the process of structural fatique/failure."

Fair enough. But ANY measurable deflection is what's required to differentiate between the BT and OEM plates, and Allan's test did not show any.

"Often at times when we made changes to a cars frame/body the associated change would show a deflection differential of less than .02" which sounds like a very minor amount but when measured at the contact patch of where the tire meets, this improvement can translate to a tremdous increase in overall TR!"

Sorry, but without figures this really doesn't mean much.

"This is why I mentioned earlier that not only does the structure have to be secured in such a way but the accuracy of the measurements must be calibrated to a known standard and the person taking such measurements must be qualified to do so."

Accuracy is certainly important, but consistency more so. The reason why the above is followed is because of the use the data is put to by the manufacturers, plus the certifications that the measuring companies have to provide to their customers. This is called standardization, and the only reason the person taking measurements need to be qualified is because of the specialist nature of the instruments involved.

This does NOT mean that tests such as Allan's are invalid, using less sophisticated instruments - it merely indicates that there are no legal impositions placed on Allan to provide certifications of his service.

"Things have changed drastically in the automotive world and manufacturers typically rely upon resonant frequency measurements where the vehicle structure is placed in anechoic chamber and the point at which the structure begins to resonate is a definitive test to know the actual stiffness of the product they are testing. The higher the resonant frequency the stiffer the body and vice versa. These tests can also be conducted on high speed computers using complex software where it can detect to a great deal of precision what the resonant frequency of the structure will be. Often times the manufacturers will still test the structure for confirmation but computers have saved engineers a vast amount of time and at the same time money."

This is just telling me that there are new ways of measuring stiffness - it does NOT tell anyone that it's the only way.

"As I mentioned previously I think it is great that someone went through the effort to conduct this test however I feel it is my duty as a M.E. to point out the flaws on how the test was performed and that the results whether they were positive for the BT plate or negative against it serves no real purpose other than to say that someone actually did a test."

As an ME and MEngAero, I don't feel it is my duty to do anything here on Priuschat. However, my background and knowledge propels me to correct and dispute your critique of Allan's test.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Oct 18 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]527560[/snapback]</div>

Good for him, but this is beside the point.

You and all the others who have only "felt" the effect of the BT plate will have to accept the fact that your opinions are not scientific proof - and this is as non-judgemental, non-malicious statement that anyone can make on this issue.

 

Jimbo, it's pretty, damn clear that that only satisfactory information you're going to get is to test the plate yourself. I don't think even TOM's or TRD would be able to give you the stats you want with their products.