Another Smug Moment

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]527204[/snapback]</div>

You've got every right to fee smug over Prius drivers, but given that logic, Prius driver's have every right to be smug over conventional cars. There's a big difference between 55mpg and 14mpg.


BTW: I may have missed it in the thread if covered, but what are the major sources of electricity in Key West? Are they clean/renewable? That gives an extra point of smugness.


Actually that got me thinking about the rest of your post. It's true the Prius gets all it's energy from gasoline, but the electrical componenents are in essence part of the power train. So you can consider the Prius a hybrid power-train car. So the energy comes from gasoline.

Now, looking at ANY Electric Vehicle, the energy ultimately comes from what ever powers the grid, and is merely stored in the battery. So if you live in an area where electricity comes from coal, you really have a Coal Powered Vehicle. If you're in Los Angeles, you're being powered by the Hoover Dam, and have a Hydro-Electric Vehicle.


Just to be rediculous, if you take it back far enough, fossil fuel energy originally came from the Sun millions of years ago, so that Hummer next to you is really a solar powered SUV.


Edit: I found on the US Energy Information Administration website (part of the Dept of Energy), that in 2004, the electricity is supplied by 29% coal, 36% natural gas, 15% nuclear, less than 1% hydro-electric, and 21% other. So that means your Electric Vehicle is 65% Fossil Fuel driven (coal + natural gas). Still better than 100% fossil fuel driven (or 90% with E10).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 10:29 PM) [snapback]527204[/snapback]</div>

As Ellie's father said (in Contact) SMALL STEPS. My first small step was the Prius. If a good EV came out that didn't cost much more than the Prius and the city had the infrastructure to support it, I'd get it in a heartbeat. That would be another small step. Unfortunately I think I'll be waiting a while.

 

I'd love an electric car when I can afford it, as I'm paying off my house the Prius was as far as I could stretch. Of course until there is an electric car on the market here in Australia, and one that has a 100km range, I guess I'm stuck feeling smug driving a Prius. By the way I also feel smug that I pay a little extra for my household electricity to come from renewable sources, 100% of it.

PS: - I can't afford the risk of converting a car to electric and finding it doesn't meet my needs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]526882[/snapback]</div>

You'd also have to add some pennies on the EV side for battery replacement, since I believe the RAV4 uses lead-acids, as it is now decade old technology. Unfortunately we've put so much money into engine performance research, there hasn't been the equivalent done on batteries. The NiMH, Li-Ion, perhaps with supercaps augmentation should be viable options and should be widespread by now, but almost everybody is sitting on the fence because the big names don't think there's enough interest (or they would sabotage their services and manufacturing networks if the much simpler EVs were popular, according to some conspiracy theories). Now the economics and technology are obviously there and the little guys (Tesla, NMG, CommuterCars, Zap, etc.) are forcing them into the game or get left behind.

I'm a big fan of electric vehicles, and I think Darell is doing it right - walk, bike for lowest impact, then electric bike, then EV, then an efficient hybrid, then an average vehicle, lastly a gas guzzler. When I traded in my Subaru Outback for the Prius, I had to make some sacrifices. About once a year I buy something that won't fit in my Prius that I would've been able to fit in the Outback. So I rent a truck from Home Depot for $20 for 75 minutes. I save the $20 on one tank of gas. I see the same thing if EV owners want to travel cross country - rent a hybrid, or take the train to your destination (much roomier and less hassle than a plane, if it goes to where you want) and rent once you get there. Pretty simple solution, definitely cost-effective. As for the argument that your commute is too long for an EV (assuming your workplace doesn't have outside outlets), do what I did - change your commute! We shouldn't expect that everybody has a right to live 40 miles or more from their workplace.

I don't have an EV yet, but I've definitely looked into it, and seriously thinking about it when our next vehicle is due. For now it's the Prius or my bike for the commute. By changing jobs and buying a Prius and biking when I can, I've reduced my gasoline usage from 48 gallons/month to about 12 gallons/month for all transportation. It's a step.

(And I've replaced the leaky windows in the house and upgraded the furnace. Next is on-demand water heating and dual-flush toilets. Save future money and the environment simultaneously. Our houses are the other half of the equation.)

 

The RAV4-EV is NiMH. Never had Lead-Acid. Some RAV4s are going 100,000 miles:

http://www.evnut.com/rav_owner_100k.htm

Mine is at almost 62,000 miles. I'll get back to you if I ever need batteries.

I used to believe my Prius was a true hybrid. I don't believe it anymore. I have seen the light, so to speak. I want others to understand the benefits of the plug as well. It's the same thing as converting regular car drivers to Prius drivers, only taken one step further.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 07:20 AM) [snapback]527289[/snapback]</div>

Agreed! And I never meant to imply otherwise. I just look at the title of this thread, and it still makes me cringe though - because of the subtitle. Smug... at the gas station.

For many EV drivers, yes. For ANY EV drivers, certainly not. The beauty of an EV is that it is the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle. You can make the electricity from ANYTHING. As the grid gets cleaner (as it does every year, in theory) then EVs get cleaner. A gas car pollutes more every year that it is driven as the pollution controls wear out. But back to the point... it doesn't matter where I live and what my grid is powered with if I'm replacing all of my electricity usage with solar power. I create the fuel for my car on my garage roof - with zero effort and zero carbon. I'm storing sunshine in my batteries. Others might make their electricity with wind. Or hydro... or burning gasoline in a nasty generator.

Have a look at what is going on here, as an example:

That's a bunch of EVs charging under a large PV shade structure at a Park-and-ride just a few miles from my house. More here: http://evnut.com/vaca_dedication.htm

Just add the sustainability part into the equation, and you can quickly see why this is a non-sequitur. A gallon of gasoline represents about 100 tons of decayed plant matter... and millions of years. There likely does not exist a less efficient version of "solar power.' It took us 125 years to consume the first trillion barrels of oil. We're on schedule to consume that second trillion in 25 years. And "made with sunshine" or not... this isn't something we can sustain, of course.

As above... no it does not mean that my EV is 65% Fossil Fuel driven. What it means is that everybody's house that is on the grid is fossil fuel driven. And we should work to change that. EVs can be powered by anything you choose to make electricity with. We are not totally reliant on what is offered - unlike the gasoline situation. If we could harness just a part of all the effort that is put into finding the faults with EVs - and instead directed that at creating renewable energy - we'd really be somewhere!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Oct 18 2007, 09:11 AM) [snapback]527349[/snapback]</div>

Nate already got this one. NiMH was *invented* for EVs (the EV1, actually). Few people realize this now that the chemistry is so common. The Rav always used NiMH batteries, and almost nobody has had to replace any modules. While some of our 5-year-old private cars have passed the 100,000 mile mark with no issues, the fleet vehicles passed that mark a long time ago, and many are over 150k miles with the same batteries. At this point, we consider the batteries to last the life of the car. I know of many gas vehicles that have needed new engines, mufflers, transmissions, etc before 100k miles! Few people take that into consideration when they look at all the negatives of EVs! EVs are perfect - but they sure don't deserve the reputation that they've recieved.

Back during the ZEV mandate, many battery companies stepped up to the plate to develop large-format battery packs for this promised market. The rug was then pulled out from under them, and they were left holding the short straw. Many lost million$ and were forced out of business. Now the battery makers are gun-shy. They want REAL assurances that the cars will be built before they take the risk again... and of course the cars can't be built until the batteries are available. It is a significant hurdle. Not a technological one by any means.

That's awesome.

Our houses and our diet are two parts of the other half, yes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 18 2007, 09:13 AM) [snapback]527351[/snapback]</div>

Huh? A vegetarian who flies five days a week and drives a hummer from his coal-heated house in Alaska to the airport has a zero carbon footprint?

So you're saying that a vegan Prius driver beats a vegan EV driver, or bicyclist or walker? Doesn't add up very well.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 11 2007, 09:10 PM) [snapback]524340[/snapback]</div>

my buddy has a truck and spends $130-180 a week on gas. I spend roughly $25-30 every 10-14 days depending. He wants a Prius or Hodna to commute in now lol. Even with a new car payment the base model is going to cost him less a month than driving his truck.

 

@Darrel,

I still say that if your EV is powered from the grid right now, and your grid is 65% fossil fuel, then your EV vehicle is 65% fossil fuel driven.

I agree we need to move to renewable/sustainable power, but I'm talking right now.

It's still better than 100% fossil fuel driven, like a Prius (again, unless you're on E10 or E15, then it's 90% or 85%).



I really like the solar powered charging stations.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Oct 19 2007, 01:41 AM) [snapback]527349[/snapback]</div>

I was talking to guys at work about this the other day. I currently live in Woodcroft, about 22km south of Adelaide central business district (CBD), my work place has changed location twice in the 7 1/4 years I have been with them and is currently 12km north of the CBD. One of the locations they are considering for the next relocation is about 15km away and another is just outside the CBD. If I move closer to the CBD I will have to pay more for a house than this one will sell for and if I move north of the CBD by 22km to be in a similar price band I will be further from the first location being considered for a relocation.

A couple of other things to consider are that my 15 year old son's education would be disrupted if I move and the government would expect me to pay about $15,000 in stamp duty should I sell my current home which I will either have to fund through further borrowings or move further from the CBD into cheaper suburbs.

I'm a compliance officer working for the State Government and as such I work shifts making public transport impractical. The only outlying branches are in country locations over 100km from the CBD. My wife works about 3km from the CBD.

How do you suggest I reduce the daily commute?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 19 2007, 05:28 AM) [snapback]527432[/snapback]</div>

Power stations + EV car are way more efficient that your ICE engine so they burn less fuel per mile.

 

I used to laugh my nice person off at you tree-huggers when I had my monster Triton V-8 354 HP 4x4. The more you saved, the more the prices dropped, the more I could burn!
Bwaaaaaahahahah!

Of course, I just filled up for $27 after driving 432 miles. I are a happy tree frog now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]527432[/snapback]</div>

You need to remember that gasoline does not arrive at the station by magic. Vast amounts of electricity are consumed in order to pump it, refine it, etc. The numbers work out such that an EV uses less electricity than a gasoline car simply because it takes so much electricity to make gasoline.

The sunlight at Darell's rooftop does arrive by magic, however.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 18 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]527456[/snapback]</div>

Good point!

So smug away.


Edit: I've been looking up refining costs for gasoline and such. I wouldn't call it really "vast." So what I found was about 113 BTU of energy to make 82 BTU of fuel. So that was 100 BTU of crude, 10 BTU of refining energy, 3 BTU of distribution, and 82 BTU of refined fuel (gasoline, deisel, jet fuel...etc).

So for every gallon of gas that a conventional or hybrid car uses, 0.38 equivalent gallons of gas are useed(really energy from lost petroleum and whatever electricity sources for refining and other fossil fuel costs for distribution).

To keep things simple, if all the electricity / energy in refining comes from fossil fuel (which it doesn't typically), then 138% of energy comes from fossil fuel, used by a conventional / hybrid car.

 

I have just spent the last 3 weeks driving a Chevy Malibu while my 2004 Prius was in the shop (accident) getting worked on. In those 3 weeks I spent about $35 every four days for a grand total of almost $200. I was sooooo happy to get my car back yesterday!

Victorria

 

So that's about 35,000 BTU's to make a gallon of gas. Or about 10 Kwh.

Which would propel my car about 25 miles.

I'd call that vast.

Here's what's coming: Nuclear power to extract oil to power gasoline powered cars. Note that the article linked here is Rigzone, THE oil industry newsletter, not some sort of green, liberal rag:

http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=30703

Nate

 

I filled up yesterday (9.7 gallons) for $29.11. The brand new Ford Expedition in front of me also filled up - took longer and he spent $79.00. Speaks for itself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 10:20 AM) [snapback]527289[/snapback]</div>

There are two companies that serve the Florida Keys' electric needs. One is Florida Keys Electric Co-op serving from Key Largo south down thru Marathon, a span of about 83 or so miles along US 1, ending at the north end of the the Seven-Mile Bridge.

FKECo-op generates some power via oil, but mostly purchases power from Florida Power & Light which serves most of South Florida. FP&L has the Turkey Point Nuclear plant just south of Homestead (which is in Miami-Dade County). I'm not all that familiar with FP&L's sources, but I don't think they rely solely on nuclear power at this time- but they are planning on explanding the plant.

There's a 'tie-line' that phsyically connects FKECo-op to the FP&L grid. During the hurricanes of 2004 & 2005, most of South Florida was without power for weeks & some for months, hence FKECo-op had to fire up their plant. Rotating brown-outs for several weeks up the Keys, but nowhere as bad as in Miami, Ft Lauderdale where the storms did so much power-line/pole damage.

Keys Energy Services is based in Key West. It serves Key West & the lower Keys up to the Seven Mile Bridge [50 miles along US1- Marathon). If you're at all familiar with the Keys, you know there are 42 bridges connecting the Keys to Florida City/Homestead on the 'mainland'. One highway in and one out, the Overseas Highway, better known as US Hwy 1, which ends at the south end of Key West. When FKECo-op was so overtaxed, KES shared power with them thru our own generating plant, which had been in moth-balls, so to speak. Its definelty NOT renewable energy, it uses oil, which is barged in from the Gulf Coast states.

Altho Key West & the Florida Keys are hot tourist destinations and many snow-birds have second homes, the population of Key West is steady at about 25,000 & the Keys seem to be around 50,000 total, spread out over the 120 mile span of the highway. Hence, Key West seems crowded but its only 2 miles wide & four miles long. EVERYTHING is very expsensive here, but the pay-scale hardly covers the cost of living. There's an interesting article on the Keys trying to go green at www.keynoter.com which points to some of the costs of trying to do so.

That being said, this is my home and I love it here. Its never seen frost, the temp has never dropped below 41 degrees. We could use more rain, we're in drought conditions as is a lot of the country. Skies are blue, fishing & boating are unsurpassed. If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes- its sure to change.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 18 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]527489[/snapback]</div>

I guess "vast" is relative. I thought of vast as a LOT more energy goes into refining the fuel than you get out of it. For example, coal fired plants use about 3 BTU of prerefined fuel, refining and distribution to get out 1 BTU of electrical energy.

So that 35,000 BTU to make a gallon of gas (assuming we're talking refining here), compared to the energy content of the gas at 125,000 BTU.

So I wouldn't call that vast, but that's just me, I guess.

BTW: I think you're getting your units confused. 1 BTU = 1.06 kJoule = 0.000293 kWh.
Otherwise, at $0.10 / kWh, I could burn a gallon of gas in a generator and sell back to the grid and make $3,500.