Another Smug Moment

My RAV4 goes about 2.5 miles on a Kwh. So, in Key West, a RAV4 EV at 13c per Kwh would cost about 5.2c per mile. A Prius, at about 45 MPG and $3.03 a gallon costs about 6.7c per mile. Oh, also, I'm going to add another penny per mile for an oil change, assuming $30 for 3000 miles, so that goes up to about 7.7c per mile. Transmission fluid change, say $120 every 30,000 miles, that's another .5c per mile, now we are up 8.2c per mile... How about coolant flush and fill? Drive belt Air filter? Exhaust down in Key West where it's salty and moist all the time?

Am I making my point?

Nate

 

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ELZBETHKW @ Oct 16 2007, 01:16 PM) [snapback]526510[/snapback]</div>

You know not of what you speak. "charging up" takes less of my time than buckling my seatbelt. The charging happens while I sleep. I don't drive out of my way to a gas station and stand around in the heat/cold/wind/rain while the thing fills, then pay, and drive back onto the road to get home. I drive into my garage, throw the paddle in the slot and go live my life. In the morning, the car is full and ready to go. 70,000 miles and zero trips to the gas station. It takes me longer to charge my cell phone than it takes to charge my EV... and it takes me WAY longer to fuel the Prius than it does my EV.

Just for you, I have a video of what is involved in charging my EV: LINK

Only if you count the price you pay at the pump, and not the cost of using it. Did you read any of my message above?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 17 2007, 06:38 AM) [snapback]526806[/snapback]</div>

I never forget that, but I don't bring it up all that much since it just stirs debate. The other undebatable reasons are plenty good enough.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Danny Hamilton @ Oct 17 2007, 07:49 AM) [snapback]526834[/snapback]</div>

Excellent bit of research. Now let's see if we can determine just how much we pay for our gasoline. That would include price at the pump, plus all the social/health/security costs that we ALL pay, regardless of consumption.

The key here is to push for cleaner, cheaper, more renewable electric power - and gradually eliminate petroleum from our transportation fuels. Then we can ALL be smug once we are not beholden to other countries for the energy that powers our way of life.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]526882[/snapback]</div>

Wow, the "fuel" costs are a lot closer than I thought they'd be. At 50 MPG and $2.60/gal. (or 55 MPG and $2.86/gal.) the fuel costs would be identical.

Yes, there are others costs associated with each vehicle, and there are various benefits each vehicle provides. You'd have to assign a value to every benefit/drawback and a probability to every potential cost to do an actual comparison of estimated cost of ownership.

The comment that was being addressed here by posting electricity costs was "Where I'm from the only thing more costly than gasoline is electricity." Apparently as long as the price of a gallon of gasoline in the Florida Keys is above $2.60, the statement is backwards for the average Prius driver.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Danny Hamilton @ Oct 17 2007, 09:25 AM) [snapback]526910[/snapback]</div>

You are also comparing the most efficient gasoline cars to one of the least efficient electric cars. You are also using an area with (apparently) one of the most expensive electricity rates. Take the EV1 for example, and you'd have to have really cheap gas to catch up. The EV1 went more than five miles on a kWh. (oh, and I personally get over 3 miles per kWh in my Rav, and 50 mpg in the Prius). And this is from a car built 12 years ago! Our batteries, chargers and controllers are now signifcantly more efficient. A modern EV (like the Tesla roadster) would be a better comparison with today's Prius. With all things being "equal" the EV is gonna win this one every time. But it isn't just about the money! If it were, we'd all be driving Yugos.

And yes, as you say there are MANY other costs to consider than what we pay for the fuel. What price do you put on national security, for example? Our electricity can be 100% domestic. Hell, it can also be 100% renewable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]526876[/snapback]</div>

My only joy comes from placing shill ebay auction bids on the RAV4-EV's . . . driving the eventual buyer's price even higher . . . since the spouse won't actually let me have one . . . yet.
Buaah ha ha ha

 

I usually don't charge my car. My 2 1/2 year old daughter does it. It's her job to "do the charge" when I get home.

Darell (the bastard) has me beat, though, his daughter did it at an even younger age.

http://www.evnut.com/ev1_kyra.htm

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 17 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]526988[/snapback]</div>

I only wish I had a video of her doing it back then. She still does it today, but it isn't as cute now that she doesn't fall over every time she pulls the paddle out of the car.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 17 2007, 11:45 AM) [snapback]526994[/snapback]</div>

Absolutley!

Not putting down the Prius! Just putting down cars that use gasoline. At least the Prius does it better than most other cars! And hey, I was almost topical with my comment above, "Then we can ALL be smug once we are not beholden to other countries for the energy that powers our way of life."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 17 2007, 12:45 PM) [snapback]526994[/snapback]</div>

Take it from me, you can never go back. Once you've been unsmugged, that's it, you'll want an EV.

Nate

The average KwH rate in the USA is 10.53c.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_3.html

The average price per gallon is $2.776

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/

This puts the RAV4 EV at 4.2c per mile avg.

This puts the Prius at 6.2c per mile avg.

Thus it costs almost 50% more (energy costs) to run a Prius than a RAV4 EV, on the average.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ELZBETHKW @ Oct 17 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]527115[/snapback]</div>

Bummer that all you are hearing is the negative in this. EVs aren't practical for everybody. Neither is the Prius. Neither is a pickup truck. EVs are just one of the options that should be available - and isn't. It doesn't have to be practical for everybody to work for the others. Think outside your neighborhood - nation wide and even world-wide. That's the view we need to take. Owning a gasoline vehicle used to be the epotme of impracticality. And yet somehow - through lots of public and private money - we made it work. A gas station on every corner, and two cars in every garage. Regardless of how convenient gasoline cars may seem... they're bad for us, and are nowhere near sustainable. One thing that just about every EV driver agrees on is that fueling an EV is WAY more convenient than fueling a gasoline car.

There is no need for a garage. CA has several thousand public chargers - the vast majority are in exposed parking lots. The chargers are rated for out-door installations even though most owners also have them in their garages or private parking spaces. They can be installed anywhere. They *should* be installed at places of employment at in front of businesses that want your money. Then you wouldn't even have to charge at home. Go do dinner? Charge. Go to a movie? Charge. Go to work? charge. That's how it is around here, at least.

First off - I ride more bicycle more miles than I drive any car, so I'll take this as a free pass to keep feeling smug. And secondly - you really paint a bleak picture of where you live. Have you considered moving to some place nice?

Most people "believe" that. And most people are mistaken. The more expensive your energy is, the more affordable the alternatives are.

My solar system is mounted on half of my garage roof. Significantly smaller than that surface area, at least. We can also have "big solar" where there is one lare solar-generator that people can buy from - just like a central "traditional" power plan. Many options that can work... if we want it to work.

I'm thrilled to see you doing so much to conserve energy. This is all part of the same equation - what we drive is just one part. And for many, driving a Prius is the best they can do in that regard. My hope is that this situation will change soon.

For many, that grass hut and coconuts IS a perfect world. We've collectively decided that polluting our nest to go faster and do more things is the better life. And yes, I'm one of the collective of course.

And again, that is fantastic and appreciated. It just needs to be understood that we cannot indefinitely continue to burn fossil fuels like we do today. Amazing to me that it seems acceptable to so many to burn gasoline for the 1/2 mile trip to the store, or to drop the kids off at school or soccer practice. Something like 80% of urban trips are of two miles or less. And over 90% of those under-2-mile-trips are driven in a gasoline car.

Let me come clean here: Because I'm an EV proponent, most people think that I travel mostly by EV. But really - using any vehicle that weighs +/- 3,000 pounds to move a couple hundred pounds of human flesh is a big waste in my mind. I travel about 800 miles per month. 600 of those miles is by bicycle. My wife commutes in the EV, and the Prius typically stays parked. I don't live in a grass hut except on vacation, and I do like coconuts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rick12Player @ Oct 12 2007, 09:22 AM) [snapback]524548[/snapback]</div>

Don't do that. Around Philly, you could get hurt.

 

[There is no need for a garage. CA has several thousand public chargers - the vast majority are in exposed parking lots. The chargers are rated for out-door installations even though most owners also have them in their garages or private parking spaces. They can be installed anywhere. They *should* be installed at places of employment at in front of businesses that want your money. Then you wouldn't even have to charge at home. Go do dinner? Charge. Go to a movie? Charge. Go to work? charge. That's how it is around here, at least.

Everyone knows that things are way better in California. :lol: Thanks, but no thanks, lived here most all my life and here I'll stay. When there are chargers all over the state, or all over town. I'll consider an EV, but for now, I'm smug with the Prius.

Say, how have your cross-country trips in the Ev worked out?

 

When you arrive at the shops and all the chargers are in use how do you charge up? This is important if you NEED to charge your car.
How do you cope with a long drive? I have a 70km commute each day, would an EV be OK for me?
When you calculate fuel costs do you factor in initial purchase price and battery costs?
Is there any point in quoting range or efficiency of the EV1? We all live in the real world today.
Can you recomend an EV I can buy in Australia for a similar price to my used Prius which has a minimum range of 100km?
What do I do when I want to drive interstate if my only car is an EV?

I feel smug driving a Prius because I'm doing a better thing for the environment than the average Joe, don't rain on the parade.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ELZBETHKW @ Oct 17 2007, 05:27 PM) [snapback]527146[/snapback]</div>

As long as we wait for somebody else to fix the problem... we'll all be waiting a long time.

Like ~95% of the driving population, I don't drive cross-country. It has been done many times, however. If I had to do it, I'd take the Prius. Right tool for the job.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 17 2007, 05:29 PM) [snapback]527148[/snapback]</div>

Didn't mean to. My goal is to make everybody's parade better. If we don't strive for something better, we'll be stuck with what we have. Don't bother asking the questions if you don't really want to hear the answers. I assume that your questions were more of a statement than a desire to hear the answers. I won't bite.

Seriously... what's everybody afraid of? I don't propose taking your gas car away. I just want EVs to be available to those who want them. If you're smug in a car that burns gasoline, all the power to you. For me, an electric car is a wonderful convenience, and a simple way to maintain my fast-paced lifestyle while NOT polluting our air and water, and without sending a bunch of my hard-earned money to countries that hate us. We own a Prius and an EV (and about eight bikes - I say "about" because I don't know how to count tandems and unicycles). When we drive a car, we choose to drive the EV about 90% of the time. Not to suffer, but because it is the the more practical, more convenient, and more economical option for 90% of our vehicle trips. YMMV.

 

I'll see darell's 20 smugs, and raise him 30 :lol:

[attachmentid=12088]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Oct 17 2007, 06:42 PM) [snapback]527160[/snapback]</div>

Whoa! I have enough trouble staying upright when the big rigs pass me at 65mph. I can't even imagine trying to deal with a REAL sail! If it works, it is cheating.

 

I just gassed up half an hour ago and had a mini-smug moment. Same thing, I finished filling up before the conventional Sedan finished, when they started first. Unfortunately, I wasn sort of cheating, as I only had to fill up 2/3 of the tank (I was at the CostCo anyway for groceries).


Unfortunately for me, I live in Los Angeles, where Prii are a dime a dozen (Prii and SUVs are almost numerically equal or seems like it). I just got cut off by a Prius yesterday on the freeway, and let another Prius owner into slow traffic earlier - so they're pretty common. So not as easy to be smug.

That and half the people at my work actually bike into lab. So they got me beat in carbon footprint.


Oh well, I still love my new car - here's a shot.

 

Key West, you make it sound like driving an EV is a sacrifice and you prefer the luxury of the Prius, and aren't ready to make a personal sacrifice of an Electric Vehicle.

Quite the opposite is true! My RAV4 EV is a step up! The extra cargo space, ride height, heated windshield, heated seats, pre-heater and air-conditioner, more headroom in the backseat all were enticing features for me.

I really like the car, even if it wasn't electric.

I don't think Prius drivers should feel smug. I felt smug for years in my Prius, until I realized the truth, that a car without a plug is a gasoline powered car. It's not so much that I want the gasoline engine to go away, I just want the car to be an actual hybrid. Calling the Prius a hybrid is really a scam. It's a gasoline powered car, period. Now, a plug-in Prius, that's a hybrid. Those of you with the plug-ins, know thy smugness. The rest of you, buy gas.

Nate