Winter Tires and Steelies

I run the ws50 blizzaks on my prius, so can't help you much. Couldn't find any cheap steelies when I bought 'em (Tirerack.com was out, and local stores wanted too much), so I went with Sport edition alloys instead (tirerack sells them, but my local guy matched, so I went local to get free semi-annual swaps). They were fairly cheap. Downside is that they might corrode. I like having the good-looking wheels on, though, because I run the snows for 5 months here in MN.

rpm

 

I just got a 2007 Prius and so I have not experienced any winter driving as of yet, but I ran into
a 2005 owner that said that the Prius and snow covered uphill driving don't mix.
He stated that the traction control system will not let the wheels spin at all.
Growing up in NW Ohio, I am very familar with snow driving and can see how this could be a very
big problem. If there is not a way to turn off the traction control, I would be looking into a set of
chains for your new snow tires as well considering where you live...

Anyone have any snow covered up hill road driving experience in the Prius??


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mountainprius_rider @ Sep 14 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]512450[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vizardknight @ Sep 14 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]512759[/snapback]</div>

I'm in total agreement with the comments of the 2005 owner. My brother and I both have 2005s. He and I both are most disappointed with the snow and ice performance due to the overly agressive traction control. In my opinion, my car is downright dangerous on snow and/or ice. This coming winter I'll be using tire chains every time I venture out in bad weather. Check out www.lacledechain.com , pricey but easy to install and remove.

This thread will now be taken over by those who will say I don't know how to drive in the ice/snow and that their Prius is the best vehicle they've ever driven on ice and snow. So be it. I'm only recounting my and my brother's experience.

PS: I've even had TC kick in and stop any forward progress on a loosely packed gravel driveway.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mountainprius_rider @ Sep 14 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]512450[/snapback]</div>

I've used the WS-50 in the past, but IMHO it's a poor value for a winter tire. Remember that only about 50% of the tread depth is the "special" winter compound. I picked up Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus studless tires for my FJ, and for about 12% more than a comparable Bridgestone winter tire, I have somewhat better performance on ice with a FULL DEPTH compound

For the Prius I picked up a set of Goodyear Nordic studded tires last fall. Although very noisy on dry pavement, I'm VERY impressed with the snow and especially ice traction. Several years ago I was in Norway on a business trip and spotted Goodyear Ultra Grip 500 - or was it 400? - studded tires on a car. They are a very aggressive winter tire, especially studded.

I'm actually shocked that Canadian Tire could introduce something that actually works. The stars must have aligned that day. The Goodyear EU site has the intro and a nice flash presentation, click on "Profile"

http://eu.goodyear.com/home_en/tires/repos...p?page=benefits

I like using steelies in winter, to keep the aluminum wheels away from road salt. Spray silicone stuff on the wheels before you install them, or a commercial product like Fluid Film, to keep rust away. Make sure to pick up proper conical lugnuts, the Toyota lugnuts will keep loosining up. I got my conical lugnuts at Napa, and was very surprised the same size works on my FJ as well

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(redryder @ Sep 14 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]512849[/snapback]</div>

My first summer with my Prius, I went with a few guys from the office out to a fishing camp for a few days of relaxation and fun. Until my Prius got stuck on a steep gravel hill and my co-worker with a Lexus RX330 had to tow me up using the emergency towing hook.

The other co-worker with the VW Golf tdi and stick shift had no trouble going up the gravel hill. He even had to stop halfway up when I ground to a halt. He just popped the clutch again, briefly spun, and zipped around me

 

Hey! Welcome to the waiting for a Prius club. I placed an order in the first week of this month with an estimated delivery date of December 15! We can keep each other company in the Green With Envy section.

Welcome!

MAB

 

I just bought a 07 package 5 and did not know this about winter driving. Thanks for the valuable information. I will purchase studded tires. do I need 4. can I use the stock rims?
My wife drives the vehicle/

.

Thanks,

Tony

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(focus022 @ Sep 26 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]518270[/snapback]</div>

Some of the 04 cars - like mine - and the 05's had the aggressive traction control problem. I've heard that issue has been resolved for the newer Prius cars

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Sep 27 2007, 11:38 AM) [snapback]518478[/snapback]</div>

I have a 2004 and I live at the top of a pretty good hill--which I cannot get up when there is fresh, uncleared snow. Like you said, the wheels don't even spin--it just sits there. Does anyone know if this fix is a software one which can be implemented in the older cars? I just wish you could switch the damned traction control off--it's the ONLY thing about this car that bugs me. So I am also looking for a recommendation on snow tires. I am in the Hudson Valley of NY, so a bit snowy, but rarely very deep snow. Can I make do with just putting snows on the powered wheels, if I stick to the stock size (I am still running the OEM tires)? I have always had separate rims for my snows. I guess I will try to find some cheep steel rims as some have talked about.

Any suggestions on snows (preferably unstudded) would be great.

Thanks,
John

2004 silver Prius (But I really wanted blue)

 

I bought Nokian RSI winter tires (185/65-15) and steel wheels from Kal Tire last year. The major winter traction issue here is ice and/or packed snow (rather than deep drifts), and the Nokians worked extremely well.

I don't like the looks of plain steel wheels, so I got a set of wheel covers from Canadian Tire. Here's what the car looks like ready for winter:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nagrath @ Oct 17 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]526824[/snapback]</div>

Yep, mine would behave exactly the same way. Kind of hard to keep going when you have the gas pedal to the mat, and nothing is happening

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nagrath @ Oct 17 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]526824[/snapback]</div>

Some say yes, some say no. I thought mine was a lot better last winter, but I was also running new studded Goodyear Nordic winter tires from Canadian Tire. We had some exciting blizzards, and I managed to bog down in a snow drift near my hobby farm, comming off the gravel sideroad right at the highway.

Once the car bogs down the front wheels refuse to budge. There are reports the +2006 cars do not have such an aggressive traction control system. Of course, it can't easily be defeated, unless you enter a special diagnostic mode that could put you at risk of grenading the PSD

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nagrath @ Oct 17 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]526824[/snapback]</div>

A lot of folks do that to save a few bucks. It really isn't a great idea, as you could experience dangerous fishtailing. I prefer to run winter tires on all four wheels.

As far as suggestions, the first winter I tried the Dunlop Graspic DS-2 and it was ok overall: really good in snow, and better than "all seasons" on ice. A lot of folks swear by the Bridgestone Blizzak tires. They're a bit pricey and remember one thing, the special winter compound is only one half the total tread depth, so in essence you're paying full price for half a tire

For my FJ I got Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus, which uses a special hard walnut shell compound embedded in the tread. I only had them on for a couple of weeks before the Spring melt came, but was quite impressed with their snow and ice traction. For passenger cars Toyo makes the Observe G-02 Plus, with the same special compound embedded in the tread. Unlike Bridgestone, the entire tread depth is the special winter compound.

For running steel rims, I strongly recommend you stop by a local NAPA and pick up some conical lugnuts. The Toyota lugnuts that fit the factory aluminum rims will loosen up on steel wheels. Mine are M12-1.5 x 21mm. They even fit my FJ Cruiser

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Oct 17 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]526886[/snapback]</div>

Wow, thanks for a lot of useful information! Snow seems to be my biggest problem, and primarily inclines! The Toyos sound interesting. I have also heard a lot of people say good things about the Blizzaks. I guess I will buckle down and get 4 wheels and tires. I'll see what my local tire guy can do. I am not looking forward to winter driving again. But I don't think the Prius is any worse than the Civic it replaced, so I'm still ahead of the game. My wife had to pick me up from the bottom of the hill with the Subaru a couple of times in the Honda, too.

One thing I don't understand--I read that the TRAC system prevents spinning the wheels too fast (which can damage the electric motor, I have read), but why couldn't one find a way to disable the the electric motor at the same time and just use the gas engine when the TRAC is off. I would think you could implement this in software (and/or just include an rpm limiter) as an option to get you out of a bad situation. Oh well I hear the new ones are better.

Thanks again--I've got some research to do!

-John

 

I am a big fan of factory-studded Nokia Haks and have run Hak 2s on a 98 Outback for the past 3 years. We now have an 07 Prius, and this is the tire (studded Hakkapeliitta 5s) that I will probably run on that car as well -- they are beasts on snow and ice. We live in SLC, ski in Little Cottonwood (Alta/Snowbird), use the car mainly for commuting but there are a number of steep hills that we need to climb and they are often snow/ice covered in the winter. The down-side is that they are pretty noisy on dry roads, feel a little "loose" at speeds over 80mph, and a little pricey @ $130 USD per tire. (I am also considering the Rsi, but the Hak 5 is my number one choice)

(When I bought them, the tire-center owner asked if I was from Alaska because every set he ever sold was to a person who had recently moved from there)

 

I think a lot of people don't understand why the traction control is so sensitive.

Say you are sitting still on ice/snow. Because you are not moving, the engine may not be turning. Worst case is if it is not.

You depress the accelerator, and MG2 starts to spin up the tires. MG1 is also spun up by the mechanical connection.

To protect MG1 from overspin once the wheels are going at or above the RPM needed to do 42 MPH or 66 kmph the engine must turn. But it's not yet started.

So the problem is the wheels can spin up to overspin MG1 -before- the engine can be run up enough to get the RPM under control because there is effectively no load on the wheels.

To protect the HSD Toyota engineers had to make the traction control very aggressive.

As far as which tires, I decided to go with the Nokian WR in the stock size, with the 88H load/speed rating (there are two ratings available). I can leave them on year round. They work very well in pretty much any weather condition, though deep water might be a problem at speed (greater than 1" deep). Nokian claims on ice they have as much traction as the Mich. ICE tire. They don't squirm on dry pavement, and they last just fine in the summer. 100,000 km treadwear warranty (that's 60,000 mi). They are just fine at higher speeds.
Pearl now corners faster than I can stand. So they work well on dry pavement too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(focus022 @ Sep 26 2007, 10:20 PM) [snapback]518270[/snapback]</div>

PLEASE DON'T - Unless you live where you will be on ice with some frequency. I'm sure I'm too late for you now, maybe not for someone else. Studded tires are bad for you and the road. Traction is WORSE on wet AND dry pavement, your stopping distances will be LONGER. The studs' effectiveness decrease as it gets colder (the ice is harder). And the studs rip up the roads our tax dollars pay to repair.

And who knows, like some people with AWD or 4WD, you might think the studs will allow you to drive 'as usual' any where, any time when conditions warrant slowing down or staying inside regardless of your vehicle.

Get good quality NON-studded snow tires.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(redryder @ Sep 14 2007, 10:28 PM) [snapback]512849[/snapback]</div>

Stock OEM tires or something better?

The Integrity tires don't have much integrity on ANY loose surface, a patch of sand is enough to cause wheel spin and have the TC kick in.

They are also lousy on snow of any depth, even 'just plowed'. I discovered this early on when I slid at a stop sign on almost nothing. Climbing a hill (from a dead stop) that HAD been plowed, but still had a little snow on it, "pedal to the metal" the car came to a stop after TC kicked in, then slid back until the tires got traction. "2 steps forward, one backward" up the (thankfully) not very long hill. That's when I got the TripleTreds. On the SAME hill, with 4-5" of UNPLOWED snow and 3 miles on the new tires, the situation was different. Yes, the car still stopped, but it didn't slide backward, I had to let off the accelerator so the car could ROLL back to more packed snow. With a 10 to 12 MPH start, the car climbed with a few TC 'hits'. In the same conditions as the original experience on the Integrity tires, no problems at all.

With almost 50,000 miles on them, I've just put on Nokian RSi Winter tires for this year. Better to save the TTs for next spring than not have decent traction this winter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bruceha_2000 @ Nov 26 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]544227[/snapback]</div>

Actually, the research I have from VTI disputes your claim

The Swedish transportation research institute VTI (Vag och Transport forsknings Institutet) has done extenstive research regarding studless and studded winter tires, in temperatures down to -40, and have concluded that studded tires are safest on cold ice. You are entirely correct that older style studded tires were generally less safe on wet and dry roads, the newest style directional studded tires are *very* safe on wet and dry roads

To quote Olle Nordstrom of the VTI:

"No age related deteriation of the ice grip was found for the fully studded winter tyres ... the results also show that on wet smooth ice the studded tyres ... are much superior to non studded tyres including the specialised studless winter tyres often called "friction tyres."

The VTI also studied the impact of road wear with studded tire use. As you may be aware, the Scandinavian countries have winter tire laws. They concluded the extra wear of *cold* road surfaces was minimal, and the reduction in accidents, injuries, and fatalities more than made up for the minimal extra wear. There is also the debate over the health effects, and VTI concluded that PM10 emissions are higher with studded tires, depending on road surface and whether sand was used as a traction agent

http://www.vti.se/Nordic/3-04mapp/particle.htm

http://www.pneusrupp.ch/pdf/GranulatesVTIT...2001English.pdf

http://www.vegvesen.no/miljovegdekke/fored...-gustfasson.pdf

http://www.vv.se/filer/30375/Fatal_Skid_Co...tudy_report.pdf

To improve ice traction and decrease road wear, the Scandinavians also reengineered the studs. The factory studded Nokian winter tires are a direct reflection of this engineering philosophy. Their winter tires offer superior winter grip with minimal road wear. Old fashioned American studded tires do not

Consider that Ontario for a long time was the only Canadian province to BAN studded tires for winter use. Enough lawsuits and testimony from folks like Nordstrom finally convinced Ontario to reintroduce studded tires to the "northwest" region of Ontario

I have personally used Dunlop Graspic DS-2 and Yokohama Ice Guard 10 studless winter tires on my Prius. Overall the winter traction was superior to the Michelin Harmony "all season" tires. However, ice traction was lacking, so I went with a Canadian Tire brand studded winter tire called Goodyear Nordic. It's identical to the Goodyear Ultra Grip 500 sold in Europe, click on Profile to watch the Flash presentation

http://eu.goodyear.com/home_en/tires/repos...p?page=benefits

On ice, especially in bitter cold temps, the Goodyear tire has far superior traction compared to the studless tires I have used. During the Spring melt, the directional tread design has excellent performance on water logged roads.

For my FJ Cruiser, I looked at the factory studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta SUV 5 and the studless Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus. Primarily based on cost, I went with the Toyo tires. I can tell you than on glare ice, my Prius with the studded Goodyear Nordic tires will stop much faster, and can take off almost as well as the FJ in 4WD. I may yet reconsider my winter tire choice, and put the Nokian Hakkapeliitta SUV 5 on my FJ

I agree with your comments that drivers can become overconfident with high traction tires. I always slow down and build in a margin or "cushion" to all the vehicles around me. Then if the SUV in front of me spins out on Fermor after the overpass, I can safely steer and avoid the idiot

 

So far not a lot of experience here regarding the traction control sensitivity, the few times I have driven on ice I notice if the ICE is running, the traction control seems less aggressive. The computer may compensate.

Something to keep an eye on anyway.