1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owner

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by IsrAmeriPrius, Nov 16, 2004.

  1. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    4,333
    7
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    DMV Chief Backs Tax by Mile[/b] (Click here to read complete article)</a>

    New appointee has advocated a levy based on how much and where motorists drive. Idea is gaining support, but privacy advocates worry.

    By Robert Salladay, Times Staff Writer

    SACRAMENTO — Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday appointed a new Department of Motor Vehicles director who has advocated taxing motorists for every mile they drive — by placing tracking devices in their cars.

    The idea would mean a significant overhaul of how California collects taxes to maintain its often-crumbling roads. Under the plan, the state gas tax — now 18 cents a gallon — would be replaced with a tax on every mile traveled by each car and truck.

    As Californians drive increasingly more fuel-efficient cars, state officials are alarmed that the gasoline tax will not raise enough money to keep up with road needs.

    Charging people for the miles they drive also worries some owners of hybrid cars, because it could wipe out any gas-tax savings they now enjoy.

    Dan Beal, managing director of public policy for the Automobile Club of Southern California, said altering the system would remove one incentive to buying new-technology hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius, because its owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owner.

    The idea has been circulating because more Californians are driving fuel-efficient cars, the review warned. Less gasoline consumed means less money for the state's coffers from the gas tax — even though people are driving and damaging roads just as much. "Electric vehicles, fuel-cell vehicles or other future fuels would not be taxed under" the existing per-gallon system, the report said.
     
    #1 IsrAmeriPrius, Nov 16, 2004
  2. NiMHPrius

    NiMHPrius New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    33
    0
    0
    Location:
    S. Calaifornia USA
    Re: Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owne

    Californian's would rather pay a higher fuel tax than have monitoring devices placed on their cars. The total mileage traveled by Californians in 2000 was 400 billion miles. So if they add a 10 cent tax to gasoline that would bring in $40 billion dolors. Let the Feds match that and we would be able to raise $80 billion dolors to fix our roads.

    In America our home and our cars are religiosely considered our private property. Any government intrusuon into that "space" will be fought over tooth an nail.

    No way will this idea become realized.

    Big Brother is Watching !!!!!

    NiMHPrius
     
    #2 NiMHPrius, Nov 16, 2004
  3. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    14,816
    2,498
    66
    Location:
    Far-North Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NiMHPrius\";p=\"50973)</div>
    First, you're dreaming if you think the new money will be spent on roads. That just makes too much sense.

    Secondly, let me tell you a story about a facility manager who thought he had a really good idea.
    We were sitting in a board room coming up with easy ways to reduce costs without affecting business or employees (lay-offs were out of the question). Here's what he said: "In a crunch, employees have proven that they can perform five days' work in only four days. We can have them work at that performance level for four days and give them Friday off. That way, all the work gets done, they get a three-day weekend, and we don't have to pay Friday's wages." He was so freakin' proud of this break-through epiphany.

    For those of you not laughing yet, let me explain.
    - The employees would work consistently at 125% their normal performance level.
    - They would receive 80% their normal pay.
    - For most, working only 32 hours disqualifies them for benefits.

    I'm just saying that sometimes people sit in their board rooms and think they have devised a really good idea. In reality, though, once they think through it, they usually wish they would have skipped that meeting.
     
    #3 TonyPSchaefer, Nov 16, 2004
  4. Cyndrax

    Cyndrax New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2004
    56
    0
    0
    Location:
    Newark, DE
    This could be one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Not only does it remove one of the incentives for buying fuel efficient cars, there is no way in hell I would let the state government put a tracking device into my car to take extra money from my pocket. I keep my EZPass double wrapped in those goofy baggie things when I am not actively using it.
     
    #4 Cyndrax, Nov 17, 2004
  5. montolchik

    montolchik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    33
    0
    0
    Location:
    Mentor, Ohio
    Re: Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owne

    I am in full belief that people who are bad at fuel economy SHOULD pay the same percentage in fuel taxes. Does a sales/VAT tax go down in percentage with a higher-priced purchase? Why should fuel tax? A flat fuel tax should be the social darwinism that culls these road hogs from the herd.
     
    #5 montolchik, Nov 17, 2004
  6. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2004
    3,054
    301
    19
    Location:
    Northwest VT
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Re: Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owne

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(montolchik\";p=\"51070)</div>
    Gas, not at the moment. But big electic users pay less per kilowatt than small home users. I gather it is justified by the administrative cost of many individual homes, vs 1 big business.
    We already have a flat fuel tax and not much has been culled. And the owners rightly contend that since they use more gas, they pay more road tax. They don't factor in the increased road wear or pollution though.

    We hashed this over some months ago when the idea was proposed for OR or WA. Plenty of good "IF they go through with it" proposed calculations based not only on miles, but also including vehicle weight and pounds of crap out the tail pipe to account for the real cost. Also dealt with what to do about cars from other states, etc.
     
    #6 bruceha_2000, Nov 17, 2004
  7. rflagg

    rflagg Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    947
    9
    0
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    As mentioned before in another thread on this, it's very, very, very, very, very simple:

    You can't base it on miles travelled. A moped does not incur the same damage on the road in one mile as a trucker does.

    vehicle weight * miles travelled * emissions = vehicle tax rate.

    Problem solved, except no politician would ever suggest a sensible solution that wouldn't offer kickbacks. Oh well.

    -m.
     
    #7 rflagg, Nov 17, 2004
  8. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    14,816
    2,498
    66
    Location:
    Far-North Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Re: Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owne

    I've spent some time thinking about this. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a whacked-out idea, but here's what I've managed to come up with so far:

    1) We have toll roads around Chicago; the tolls pay for upkeep and snow removal. Only those people who drive on the tollways pay the toll. If you don't want to pay the toll, drive the sideroads. Even though out-of-state visitors complain about the toll, it certainly addresses wear-and-tear from out-of-staters.

    2) There is some merit to the argument that even though high-efficiency vehicles pay less in gas taxes, they basically drive just as many miles on the roads. However, you would have a hard time convincing me that my 2,900 lb. Prius inflects just as much damage as a 5,500 lb. Escalade.

    3) Drivers of high-efficiency vehicles will still be saving tons of money at the pumps. I can't imagine that hybrids owners are going to run out and buy guzzlers as a result of this tax.

    4) If the state's going to create a tax to pay for road maintainance, why not just come out and call it an "Infrastructure Development and Maintenance Tax" and add it to the regular tax statement every year. At least this way, the state's being honest and fair to everyone. A portion can go to roads, some to water filtration and distribution, some to electrical grid upgrades, etc.

    5) What's the loophole? There's always a loophole. There's got to be a way such that some people can get away with not paying the tax. A professional exemption or something.

    These are just my thoughts. I think that "bugging" a citizen's car is deplorable. The only way to enforce such a plan is to read someone's odometer in much the same way the utility company reads a meter.
     
    #8 TonyPSchaefer, Nov 17, 2004
    Putu Ariawan likes this.
  9. priusprints

    priusprints New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    29
    0
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Re: Prius owner would pay the same fuel tax as a Hummer owne

    first of all, i must announce that i took the first step in getting a new prius yesterday: i junked my 1990 ford taurus. it will never be driven again. so, hello los angeles public transportation! (and my "first" bus ride was quite the entertaining experience).

    so, i heard for the first time about this whole tax/mile idea on my way to the DMV yesterday and it has my blood boiling. here's my thoughts, and i'll admit i'm not too educated about this deal yet, but i'd like to think that this is some good logic:

    1. there is obviously a point at which the scales tip to favor certain drivers when it comes to tax on gas vs. tax on miles. i'm not sure at what mpg rate that would be, but obviously it does not encourage higher fuel efficiency to have a prius and a hummer taxed equally on the miles driven. suddenly the savings on fuel costs is lessened for prius drivers and gas is cheaper for a hummer driver? what the hell? how backwards is that. there will be a perfect mpg rate where it doesn't matter how you are taxed--on fuel or miles--it will be equal. like an intersection of two lines on a graph. for everybody else, you'll either pay more or less if we change to tax on miles. am i wrong to say it is obvious that gas guzzlers will benefit?

    2. out of state drivers. there is no way california is going to be able to track them. there are TONS of people driving cars in california that are not registered here. technically, these people are breaking the law, but all the college students, etc that are here driving their cars for school easily get away with not having to register here. so how on earth will they be forced to comply with a tracking system? right now, they still pay the same price for gas, but if they aren't being tracked on the road, how the heck will the state get their tax dollars? this applies to college students, tourists, and all other people driving out of state cars in California, and their numbers are high. there is a hummer from new york that is on my old route to work. registered in NY, driven all the time in CA. i know CA wants him taxed for driving on our roads.

    3. HUGE problem: you cannot tax a small car the same as a hummer or large SUV. so my question is: will cars be taxed per mile based on the type of car? will there be some sort of coefficient for each car that is calculated based on weight, emissions, etc? obviously, the effects in terms of road wear and pollution from a prius and a truck or hummer or SUV are vastly different.

    4. big brother. i'm not paranoid about being watched, but you can bet the ACLU is going to hate this with a passion.

    5. so if the state can track miles driven, they can figure out how to spread the repair funds, right? i doubt it would work out that way though. something tells me that roads in need in certain areas would still not get any addtional love.

    6. regarding a potential loophole: yup--professional exemption. you are so right on. tons hummer and large SUV owners got a tax break when they bought their vehicles because they claimed they were for business and not just intimidation and image, and it would not surprise me one bit to see those same drivers get exempt somehow because it is a "business" vehicle.

    7. what is the best way to discourage excess miles driven and encourage more efficient and smaller cars that will do less damage to the roads and pollute less? make gas more expensive. tax it up. we pay so little for gas compared to europe. making gas cheaper will take us steps back on the progress that has been made with fuel efficiency and green cars.

    i can just imagine it:

    OIL INDUSTRY: hey california, those hybrid cars are hurting our profits. people are driving the same miles and spending less on gas!

    ARNOLD/BUSH/CA: well, we tried to encourage people to buy hummers and big gas guzzlers with tax breaks. i (arnold) helped to make hummers on our roads a reality!

    OIL INDUSTRY: well the hummers aren't being driven enough. and the prius owners can go from LA to San Fran and back on one tank! don't you think you should tax them per mile they drive instead? that way, they won't hesitate to buy more gas and then they'll drive more and we'll be richer and you'll be richer!

    ARNOLD/BUSH/CA: yes! you're right once again! we'll do it!
     
    #9 priusprints, Nov 17, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)