Hello everyone - this is my first post to this forum and I'm very grateful for having found it. This looks like a wonderful site and community. We are currently deliberating on how to best move our young family around and are looking into two options to replace our Honda Odyssey. We are looking at (obviously) a Prius and the forthcoming VW Jetta Sportwagen (basically, a Jetta stationwagon). I'm also fully versed on the previous poor customer service and reliability issues of VW (which I believe to be much better now). That issue aside, I'm looking for what fits us best - two small boys in the back and a load of stuff in the trunk. I'm looking for practicality, functionality, fuel economy and safety so I'm sure I have the right two cars in my sights. I did a search to see if any other Hybrid vs. Diesel threads existed, and they did. However, those covered the now defunct VW diesel technology, soon to be replaced by the new (much cleaner) Bluetec diesel platfrom shared by Audi/MB. So based on that, I decided to bounce this new technology debate off of a few of you Prius vets out there.....and I hope this is the right place to do it! The new recently released VW diesel tech numbers are impressive, 40mpg city and 60mpg highway. I'm primarily a highway commuter, so that plays to my favor. I figure with my driving style and commute, the mileage is a wash with either car. The new Tier2 Bin5 diesel fuel is also much, much cleaner than the previous dirty diesel we had here (nasty stuff). I also think it is interesting that Honda is pulling the plug (no pun intended) on hybrids save for the Civic, and swithcing to diesel in NA. Subaru and Nissan are also jumping onto the diesel bandwagon here too. (Hybrid diesel anyone?) So my question is, does the new diesel tech make the VW product a attractive option for a perspective buyer like me? Given that each of you didn't own a Prius today, and had your choice of a Prius HB or a VW Sportwagen, what would you do? Would you be more willing to consider the VW? Why or why not? I will say I like the ergonomics of VW better than the Prius (no telescoping wheel or height adjustable seat). But that is getting pretty picky. However, I found the inside of the Prius to cavernous and have much more space. Pros and cons each way. Sorry this ended up so long - thanks in advance for your time and comments!
Seems you've done your research. I think it's really going to come down to what you like for your own needs. I've not seen or been inside the VW but can tell you that the Prius is quite roomy for it's external appearance and it's been very nice to have that capacity. I can tell you that some of the little things that you come to appreciate with the Prius are 1)The quiet, 2)The electronics (BT, NAV, SKS). Safety wise the Prius rates very high...don't know if the new VW has been tested yet and, again, I don't know if ESC and 6 airbags come on it as they do on the Prius. Finally, you didn't mention your purchase window...if soon then you're obviously going to be buying the latest Prius technology (if you go that way). If in a couple of years then we may have some Plug-in options available that may make it more desireable of a choice.
Our family of four made the switch from VW (Golf, Golf diesel, Vanagon td, Jetta) to Prius last year. We also debated long and hard between the Jetta tdi wagon and the Prius. We are now more than happy with our move. We turned over 75,000 miles on our '04 Prius last week. We got it used with 41,000 miles on it 17 months ago. It has performed flawlessly all along-- only oil and filter changes and a set of tires. Our VW experience was different than that. The new Sportwagon with BluTec definantly complicates the decision. Reliability would be my biggest concern. Do you know whether the 40/60 mpg rating compares to the old 60/51 for the Prius or with the updated 48/45? Do you know how the price of the new ultra low sulpher diesel will compare with the current diesel? PA P
Just the fact that diesel is not as readily available in north america and often costs more has to enter into the equation as well. Toyota's reliability vs. VW has to enter into the equation. The rest is nothing more than personal preference towards styling and the like.
<div align="left">The problem with the Jetta is it's made by Volkswagen. They always seem to have some sort of reliability issue. Other than that I'd consider a diesel...or even better a diesel/hybrid.</div>
I fit a 50" samsung plasma, a full sony 5.1 theater system, and my wife in the prius. Space and storage limitations are not an issue.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slair @ Sep 5 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]507422[/snapback]</div> You replaced your MFD with a 50" Samsung plasma. Dude! PA P
I'll try to answer your questions back to me so we can further discuss: Yes, the "new Jetta" crash test ratings are 4 star front, 5 star side (front and rear) with six airbags standard and two more optional in the rear. Stability control is also standard (optional on Prius). I would say safety and ergonomics go to the Jetta. Size and reliability obviously go to Toyota. Style is a matter of taste - for me it's VW (slam dunk), but not so much so that I won't buy the Prius if that is what the overall picture points too. I'm still not used to the now 4 year old exterior design and funky dash. My purchase window is either a) now (Prius) or B) next Spring when the VW Sportwagen arrives from Germany. I don't see waiting two years for plug-in technology. If it's that great when it comes out, I'll upgrade. The mpg rating, while not yet "official" since the cars are not even here yet, is wide spread among the info being distributed to VW dealers. These are the new EPA numbers I am told (40/60mpg). I new the Prius numbers went down (as did everyones) but wow - 48/45 vs. 60/51? Zoiks! I know there is an entire MPG forum on here - but what do you guys actually, truly get day to day? I'm a 28 mile (each way) commute, 2/3 highway but with several stoplights. Are there mods to help with fuel economy? I'm in engineering, so getting good mpg is neat science to me and a bit of a game. I don't see the price of the ultra low sulfer diesel going up much if at all over current diesel prices. It normally parallels gasoline. And it is readily available in my area (central Indiana) as is 2% and 5% bio-diesel (very cool). On cost, at least here, half of the time diesel is cheaper than gas! Currently, it is up by about .20 cents/gallon over gas. Last fall it was as much as .60 cents/gallon cheaper. Over the course of a year, it's a wash. I don't disagree with the reliability issues. That is of course a concern. However, the VW dealer I would use has a very high customer satisfaction rating (highest in Indiana) which counts with me, and also gives you a loaner on service and warranty repair until your car is ready. I also know that VW warranty claims are down almost 50% since the management shakeup two years back. Heads rolled, things changed when they brought in a new man to run the entire show (former Rolls Royce exec). Thanks for the feedback everyone! I really enjoy and appreciate it. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA Prius @ Sep 5 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]507426[/snapback]</div> Dudes from Indiana man - that's how we roll B)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SB2 @ Sep 5 2007, 02:49 PM) [snapback]507433[/snapback]</div> I have hard time believing the new EPA numbers, but it doesn't really matter. What matters most is what actual every day driving will get you and you'll find that a lot of people are beating not only the new but also the old EPA MPG figures. My car is just over 7K miles and the only mods I made is at around 5K I inflated the tires first to 40/38 then to 42/40 psi (factory setting are 35/33). I have no EBH or EV button and most of my driving is on the HWY with relativelly short 14 mile drive to work and one long weekend get away trip. My last 3 tanks were all 60+ MPG all around 500 km per tank. Lifetime average >54MPG increasing with every tank to-date. A lot of people are experiencing even better MPG, but some don't. Driving habits; mods and the type of driving / location all influence individual MPG. Good luck with your decision Gabe
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius 07 @ Sep 5 2007, 03:30 PM) [snapback]507458[/snapback]</div> Gabe, U.S. or Imerial gallons? If you allow the car to teach you, mid 50's are common. If you prefer to drive like the average driver in the average car you will likely be in the mid 40's. Those in the latter category are likely not attracted to PriusChat. PA P
No personal experience, but my understanding is that the clean diesel technology is creating a cost in FE..a significant reduction. I'd also like to know the source of the numbers you quoted and if those are Imperial gallons, if it's the same emissions controls that'll be on the US version, etc. That said, I don't think 60hwy is impossible.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA Prius @ Sep 5 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]507461[/snapback]</div> US gallons and agree with your comment about letting the car teach you ... then you can supplement that knowledge with all the good advice here
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 5 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]507464[/snapback]</div> I have both a 2005 Prius and a 2003 TDI Jetta Wagon. If I was to choose between the new TDI Wagon and the Prius I would purchase the TDI. I have 140K miles on the TDI will no problems except for replacing the glow plugs. It will easily get 50 mpg on the highway at 75 mph. I will be commuting 150 miles per day on the highway so the TDI is the natural choice for me. Getting diesel has never been a problem. I log the price of diesel vs regular gas and over the last 5 years diesel has averaged $0.01 more per gallon. The Prius gets about 45 mpg on the highway at 75 mph. Right now now my wife uses it for a 25 mile city commute so it is the better choice for that. It has been getting about 50 mpg it that use. To me the VW is just a much nicer car. It handles and rides MUCH better and also a better interior and ergonomics for me. (5'10", 180 lb) The VW has more cargo room, the Prius more rear passenger room. I have no problem believing the new TDI will get 60mpg on the highway using the new EPA formula. As I said, I can get 50 to 55 mpg with my TDI and it was designed it 1993. The newer BMW's, Mercedes, and VW diesels I've driven in Europe have returned outstanding mileage. I got 30mpg in a C-Class with an average speed of about 95 mph and a top speed of 150 mph. Feel free to ask me any specific questions. Jason
Diesel was like 30 cents per gallon more around here last I noticed. No encouragement there come replacement time...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 5 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]507464[/snapback]</div> I have to admit being skeptical of those 40/60 mileage numbers as well. A little googling did reveal an independent source . That said, the source is VW, so it will be interesting to see if EPA tests bear that out. from http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/08/diesel-...al-fuel-sipper/ Inside Line is reporting that VW expects 2008 Sportwagens ordered with the 2.0 diesel engine to get EPA numbers of 40 city/60 highway. from http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120684 VW of America Spokesman Keith Price said the automaker is anticipating EPA numbers of 40 mpg in city driving and 60 mpg on the highway for the diesel SportWagen.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadPhish @ Sep 5 2007, 04:17 PM) [snapback]507508[/snapback]</div> The new TDI Jetta is expected to start at between $19K to $20K. Last I checked the Prius starts at $23K. I would put the purchase cost comparison squarely in the TDI's favor. I expect that the first TDI's will sell above MSRP though.
Hi SB2, As Jhinton experience is evidence of, I read somewhere the only TDI to buy was the Jetta Wagon, as it was the only one availabe in the US, still made in Germany. Do not trust the EPA on the Prius. The Prius is the first car I have ever driven that routinely kills the EPA rating, and then some. Even the old ratings. I imagine the TDI will be like other cars, and come in a little worse in the real world experience. I drive in Chicagoland traffic all week long. The Prius easily beats the TDI, even the new Bluetec in this enviorment. Cruise control at 70 mph, the Prius would probably tie the TDI on energy used, but as there is 13 percent more energy in diesel fuel per gallon, the TDI would probably get better mileage. Also consider your summer versus winter driving. Diesel is more expensive than gas in the winter, and ties, or slighly less in the summer. Are you planing on a manual or automatic transmission in the TDI ? In a rural enviorement from VW, the manual probably makes more sense. Does the automatic impact those TDI mileage ratings somewhat? On Biodiesel, over the life of the car there will probably be bio-gas (bio-butanol) available in the US in similar, if not higher mix ratios. On maintenance side of things, there are brakes ( $300+$500+$700), alternator ($200), PS pump (?), starter ($200) and turbo ($1000) costs in the TDI ledger. Assuming manual trans - clutch ($1000) None of these costs in the Prius ledger to 125 K miles. So, the TDI will need to be like $3900 cheaper to cover these things. If you plan to sell the car before these maintanence items come due, well, that is what the blue book is for. You still pay for what you have used up at the time of sale in reduced resale value. The other issue with the Jetta next year is that its the first year of the car in the US. So there may be some US shakedown issues.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Sep 5 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]507666[/snapback]</div> The TDIs get slightly better mileage with the Automatic... (not a typo).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 5 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]507464[/snapback]</div> I believe VW said that (40/60mpg US). A 2.0 litre BlueMotion diesel might be able to crack that 60mpg mark.. esp. if you're doing 60mph. Note that the new Jetta Wagon is actually called the "Golf Variant" in Europe... I guess it's big enough to be called the Jetta here since a Golf wagon would look odd. I've sat in the 2.5 litre Jetta Sportwagon earlier this year at the autoshow. The large panoramic moonroof is a nice touch and the buttons and dashboard definitely feel more upscale and of better quality than the VWs we have here. It does feel very European. The downside is that the black interior is quite dreary. Also, I think it'll have the edge in cargo capacity (both seats up and down).
