My Prius needs a battery, Toyota denies warranty due to EV button

“Then I just have one more question for you Sir. How In fact did my client who used a button designed and sold by Toyota in other countries, installed properly per Toyota’s specifications, in a car that is electronically identical, that uses an identical battery, knowing that thousands of Americans have done this same install and have run there cars for years with no problems, HOW SIR, IS THIS ONE FAULTY BATERY OUT OF THOUSAND OF OTHER CARS WITH THE SAME BUTTON DAMAGED BY YOUR BUTTON?â€


Some questions that might be asked on cross:

Is that part available from Toyota in USA?
Is the wiring harness different for the overseas Prius compared to the USA Prius?
Does adding a EV switch in the USA require any splicing or rewiring of connectors or disassembly of the dash?
Does the USA Toyota service department install the EV switch?

To the Pruis owner:
Did the EV switch come with instructions and all necessary wiring from Toyota?
What language was the instructions written in?
Do you have any experience or education in automobile electrical systems?

Even knowing the EV switch did not cause the battery failure I think it's reasonable that a judge or jury might decide it was possible. Toyota has nothing to lose going to court. If they win, they don't have to pay for the repair. If they lose they set a precedent that doesn't matter since the EV switch can't cause the failure to begin with. I think Toyota did the correct thing by covering the battery under warranty mainly because it was a legitimate warranty repair and wouldn't look good not to cover the system, not because they probably would have lost easily in court.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(koa @ Jul 21 2007, 01:06 PM) [snapback]482861[/snapback]</div>

But if it goes to court the headlines will read "Prius Battery dies, owner out $4500". The press would be horrible and far worse than shelling out the money to fix the problem. They would be fools to take this to court. Their case is questionable at best. The onus is on them to prove the damage was the owners fault.

Toyota did the right thing. They don't want more headaches from this kind of thing (real or imagined). My EV mod seems to have died (it's a coastal tech). I'm not going to replace it, though I need to get into the compartment and verify that the wire taps are still connected properly. It's really a shame that the EV mod isn't standard. It's so useful when moving the car a short distance (as dogfriend pointed out).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 21 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]482867[/snapback]</div>

I agree. I also have the Coastal mod, but really only use it maybe 5 times a year. It seems to have stopped working also (doesn't go in to EV mode, but there are no beeps), but I'm not going to replace it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Jul 20 2007, 12:33 PM) [snapback]482382[/snapback]</div>

The EV mode button has little to do with saving gas. It is a way to keep the engine off when it has no need to be on. When I back out to wash the car, do I really need to pollute with gasoline to move 30 feet? Does allowing the ICE to start and run for about 10 seconds help anything or anybody?

This is just plain funny! You say that if it ain't broke that it probably doesn't need fixing (I paraphrase)... and you ask why people want to go trying to improve something that is already "good enough." And yet you've added the shark fin and the BT plate to your car. Were those broke? A wee bit of introspection would go a long way here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 20 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]482654[/snapback]</div>

Only time I've had that happen is when <strike>pulling a loaded trailer</strike> driving cautiously and safely up a steep hill and wanting to see how fast I could go. I normally never see the pink bars, though I do go all the way full (green) quite often.

And finally - I think it needs to be pointed out just one more time: Just because Toyota says something voids the warranty, and just because they (now) claim that something HAS voided the warranty - does not mean that the warranty is void. For that to happen, it must be proven! This is similar to getting a ticket from the Highway Patrol. They can give you the ticket because they think you did something wrong. A judge decides who is right - not the officer. Many tickets are issued that do not survive a court visit. What Toyota did here was to write the ticket. It still has not been decided if the switch actually harmed the battery. If that cannot be proven, the warranty cannot be voided. I'm not saying it won't happen, and I'm not saying that the switch didn't hurt the battery - I'm saying that nothing has been proven here, though it was a MAJOR hassle for Nate.

As usual, we mere mortal humans can barely compete with corporations (who wants to take Toyota to court?). We created the corporations, and now they can stomp us like little bugs just with the threat of expensive litigation.

Sucks, Nate! (No worries in the Rav at least - you have NO chance for a warranty there! )

And that reminds me. I need to take the ICE button out of the RAV4EV before somebody discovers me, and voids my ICE warranty.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 21 2007, 07:15 PM) [snapback]482993[/snapback]</div>

I've had it down to 2 pinks on the Coq at the top of the snowshed hill at 122 on Cruise and one time on West Broadway in stalled traffic with the defrost going to keep from fogging up. Other than that it's normally blue or green. I think Nate has a computer problem.

 

I've got 4000 miles on my 2007 and the best MPG i'm gettings is 45. Should I be getting better for highway milage?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 21 2007, 07:30 PM) [snapback]483000[/snapback]</div>

Would definitely be interesting to hear what they say if there is still a problem (with no EV button to "damage" the battery). The original problem happened so early on, that you've just really got to wonder what the answer is here. Sounds like whatever made the battery go bad the first time is working its magic on the new one!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freezer @ Jul 21 2007, 08:13 PM) [snapback]483025[/snapback]</div>

You *could* be getting better mileage, and you are current getting close to the average of all Prius drivers. There are very few "average" Prius drivers on this list! I can easily get down to 45mpg. All I have to do is drive faster, or less steady. Don't fret about 45mpg, but know that you CAN make it better if you want to work at it a bit (or simply drive slower which takes now more *work* but a bit of self-control.

 

the first flash to "cure" the stalling problem cause poor mileage and battery operation, plus the dealers were killing computers left and right trying to do the flash, lots here on PC reported that. Then Toyota had a code set that crashed the computer and finally told the dealers not to use it, then another that sort of fixed all the problems. If Nate only had the first flash and skipped the others he's got one that really was poor in relation to the latest. Dealer can get the number off the THHT and check it, but I think he should demand a reflash with the latest code set.

 

You can do an impedance check on the Prius battery (the CAN View reports this in the EV screen.) This information is on the CAN bus, so probably not limited to the Can view for decoding. If you have any scan tools, I think the hardware geeks out there might want to take a look at the raw data.

Still a very curious what is happening exactly for you to get down to 1 bar. The lowest I've ever seen the car at is 2 pink bars. (iirc, the battery was at something like 177V at that point.) As soon as the car starts moving, the engine kicks on, and drives like a dog. (you can see the car trying to recharge the battery, sacrificing performance in the process.)

As for it being a firmware issue, I would be really surprised that this would be the only unit experiencing problems. There aren't that many possible combinations of firmware out there.

On the other hand, I know that the prius HV pack dosen't like to be deep cycled, not even once. For one thing, looking at the internal photos of the pack, there aren't any cell balancing circuits in there! Unless of course, they're inside the 7.2V frame? So, if something is causing 'leakage' then this could be a problem.

Toyota has done a marvelous job on the Prius, there's some fantastic engineering in there, looking at the DTC's list shows that they are looking at a LOT of things already.

Just my random $.02

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Jul 20 2007, 05:32 AM) [snapback]482137[/snapback]</div>

I just had the same issue, the Toyota dealer said computer controlled and nothing can be done.

I am going to try another Dealership...

 

I would like to see the well-founded engineering PROOF that Toyota
would offer for this, and hold them to it. Answer? There isn't
any, and Toyota knows that perfectly well. The battery in EV mode is
subject to the SAME limits as in non-EV operation, and safely self-
cancels to start the engine and add charge at 40-something % SOC.
Trying to claim that an EV switch has ANY adverse effect on the
battery is pure horsehockey, and since Toyota listens to all the
forums and is following this discussion anyways, how 'bout making
sure your dealerships do NOT try to nickel-and-dime customers with
frivolous excuses like this? TAKE THE LESSON, because the owner
community here is a powerful influence you do NOT want to mess with.
Look on the bright side: you have vast minions of free salesmanship
out here, as we go around daily activities and car shows and tell
potential buyers how much we enjoy the Prius. Toyota owes that
collective entity the best and most truthful support it can muster,
no question about it.
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freezer @ Jul 21 2007, 11:13 PM) [snapback]483025[/snapback]</div>

It depends. 45 MPG is not bad for someone driving the Prius out of the lot with no modification of either vehicle or driving habits. Much depends on that, plus terrain, traffic, length of trips, temperature, etc.

There is much discussion here (Indeed a whole forum) dedicated to fuel economy.

First step: Increase tire pressure. Second, Learn how the gas engine/battery/electric engine system works so you can maximize your milage. Simple tips: drive like you had an egg between your foot and the gas pedal, and another on the brake pedal. Watch the MPG screen and keep acceleration so that the MPG reads half your MPH. The rest gets technical.

 

In Australia we have the EV button.
We have a 100,000km 3 year new car warranty and a 5 year warranty on the Hybrid battery.

I think US cars have to have a 10 year warranty on the hybrid battery and to extend the life of the battery there is no EV button. So I guess they should honour the hybrid battery warranty for 5 years if you fit an EV switch. There are several other differences between the AU Prius and the US Prius, like the reverse beeper can not be disabled on an AU Prius, only 1 power outlet, only 2 trim option levels, wider high pressure tyres, no sunroof, etc.

 

Two cents here (since I do not have EV Mod). Does anyone know if it was Toyota USA or Toyota Japan that generated this EV warranty violation issue? Does anyone know who retracted (at least for this case) this as being a warranty issue? "Toyota" MAY be getting a bad rap for doing the right thing. Don't lose sight that the OP made it clear that Toyota finally did the right thing in his case. The biggest shortcoming is still not knowing the official position.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 21 2007, 04:30 PM) [snapback]482935[/snapback]</div>

Who says you have to take "them" to court to fight back? :huh:
The internet is a great amplifier of the individuals' voice.
There is the possibility, in Nate's case, that some higher-ups at Toyota were persuaded into making the correct call knowing that bad press can easily start at a grass roots level (ie. Nate badmouthing Toyota here on PriusChat - if Toyota would have denied warranty coverage) - but stamping out that bad press would cost much more - monetarily, and in terms of lost goodwill - than the (non-retail) price of a, apparently very rare, battery replacement under the terms of the warranty.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jul 27 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]486539[/snapback]</div>

ABSOLUTELY IN AGREEMENT!!!
If Toyota can prove the EV switch has very little affect on the longevity of the traction battery, I'm sure Toyota dealers would love for Toyota Corporate to make an announcement that an OEM EV switch mod does not void the warranty . . . so long as the switch is either installed at a Toyota dealership, or, if not an OEM switch, that the switch is inspected for safe design, installation, and operation by a Toyota dealer PRIOR to Toyota discovering the existence of the EV mod (amnesty). If the above were to be complied with, a battery warranty claim would not be denied due to the existence of an EV switch mod.

Toyota has received some 'good press' from Nate. Now they just need to capitalize on it with a definitive, official policy.

*** I would love and EV switch for moving the car in and out of the driveway. It would be the ecologically correct thing. The Toyota dealer would love to see me again, and I'm sure Toyota wouldn't mind selling thousands of OEM EV switches.

 

Toyota's stand was perfectly clear. EV switch, no warranty. But I agree that there should be some official procedure for doing the mod. If it's in all the Prius outside NA and no problem with battery warranty Wth gives with that. OK Toyota give us the REAL story here. No BS, no mubojumbo, no lies or nothing. Just the straight story, why we in NA don't have it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 28 2007, 02:25 AM) [snapback]486607[/snapback]</div>

It's probably something simple.. Toyota did the test bed thing with 10 drivers in europe, 10 in america and found that 8 of 10 americans continually pushed the button trying to get the car to drive on 0 gas so they could get something for nothing.

Who'd have guessed they picked 8 freeloaders out of 10, just bad luck when choosing a test group for a new car. So, the button was removed from our cars because we're not smart enough for it. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 20 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]482314[/snapback]</div>

The new Lexus 600hL also has the EV button. . .