GM, the Volt, and catching up

Hey !! Wait !!
A thread on GM's Vaporware, and the OP isn't Volty?
How strange!

 

Wow, that story is so knew! How is GM able to milk so much media attention from their vaporware? Every month there is a new story with no new information.

 

I, for one, hope that the Volt project is wildly successful; so much so that it changes GM's direction so they stop focussing on/marketing SUVs and trucks.

The problems I have with the Volt is not that I don't think GM will ever make it, but that they're using it first as a way to improve their public image so they sell more gas-guzzlers and second as a persuasive tool to try to keep Washington from enforcing higher CAFE standards.

Because of how GM uses the Volt as propaganda, I can't help but feel they're insincere about actually wanting to become "green".

 

I hope GM sees the value in having choices for all customers. They are making much more efficient vehicles in China so they can get part of that big fast growing market. Why not here.

They have proved they could do it if they really want to and I hope they do. Just like Toyota they can have some big trucks and large SUVs as long as they also have efficient 50-100 mpg choices. Even thepast GM GEO Metro had pretty good mpg at around 50. A 2001 Saturn SL1 I had got 40-45 on the highway. They can make lighter vehicles and help their profits as well as the world.

All large automakers should have divisions that make different types of vehicles so they can cover all markets. If GM can make a 600 hp 200 mph Vette why can't they make a 100 mpg car ? I think they can and will see it's the way to cover all needs of the markets.

 

They might build it and then crush it? I can't say I think a lot of GM.

BTW, have you read that the Th!nk City might come back via Norway (I didn't know any actually went back there)?? They are calling it Th!nk Global.

http://www.thealarmclock.com/euro/archives...ectric_car.html


--des

 

Anyone remember the Rock Hudson movie (Lover Come Back) where he developed a successful advertising campaign for VIP? Except there was no such product. So then he had to develop one.

Kinda reminds me of the Volt.

 

Wow! I didn't know that Bob Lutz is 75 years old! It sure is nice to see GM pandering to the boomer generation, they sure know how to get things done.
I wonder about the design of the Volt; how low the roof looks, low door openings, interior space. If the vapor becomes a solid one day, will I be saying "GM had their head up their butt designing such an f'ed up car", then spend my money on another Toyota that is very fuel efficent and well designed/built. It just seems that GM is building a very narrowly focused car that won't appeal to most and certainly won't pull any SUV or truck converts.

 

Even if Volt make it into production, I think it will be like Honda Insight. I don't mean the size or functionality. I mean the use of expensive and special parts as a showcase car but not meant to be mass produced.

Come on with the battery that will cost $20k and weight 400 lbs. Even if the prices come down, it will still be the most expensive and heaviest part of the car.

I remember (from Prius that shook the world book) Toyota engineers were making fun of Rav4 EV by calling it a battery carrier because the battery was the heaviest part of it. Volt will be a battery carrier all over again.

I think the spec of Volt is too ambitious and can not reach mass market. I think it is better to make it PHEV10 or PHEV20 but technical limitation of series hybrid design will not allow without sacraficing performance.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 26 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]485438[/snapback]</div>

Any EV will have the battery as the heaviest part of the car. That is what the Volt is, a EV with a range extending generator. I don't like the execution of the Volt but the series hybrid concept is sound.

I see things directly opposite from you. Parallel hybrids are the technology with technical limitations for what most people do. A very large percentage of the population drives a very short distance per day. I believe the average is 24 or 25 miles per day. But the parallel hybrid focuses on being good at what people do very little, the several hundred mile drives. A as long as you are dragging along a full size engine and transmission, a parallel hybrid is just a conventional car with additional components added to make it marginally more efficient. The Camry Hybrid and Civic Hybrid are each about 40% more efficient than their gasoline counterparts. This is impressive but not revolutionary.

A series hybrid on the other hand if you downsize the generator so that it is just adequate for those longer drives can be incredibly more efficent for the typical 30 mile drive. The series hybrid also allows automotive engineers to total rethink component layout in a vehicle allowing for roomier and safer vehicles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarkMN @ Jul 25 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]484838[/snapback]</div>

Totally. An article in the SF Chronicle from a couple of days ago compared the Volt with the Prius...and they published pics of both cars along with specific performance data, like the Volt even exists yet!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Jul 26 2007, 10:12 AM) [snapback]485380[/snapback]</div>

I agree. It's built on the Cobalt platform. I've read the spec and looked at the Cobalt, and the Cobalt does not have enough backseat legroom to allow adults or even large kids to sit in comfort. But it's the same platform as the Chevy HHR (small wagon). This would be a lot more useful if GM would built it as an HHR rather than as a Cobalt.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 26 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]485607[/snapback]</div>

Nicely said. The ultimate evolutionary step could be a tow-behind genset. Leave the ICE at home unless you'll need it that day. Aside from the awkwardness of towing a trailer, that is. That's an option on some currently produced electrics.

 

Maybe this time GM will go from R&D right to Crush & Dump without that bothersome Market & Sell step.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 26 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]485607[/snapback]</div>

The full size engine in the Prius is a 1.5L job. As for that transmission you mentioned, the Prius doesn't have one worthy of the name. It only has one gear, plus the magic of electronics and software.

Perhaps if a high capacity battery existed at an affordable price I might change my mind, but right now the parallel hybrid makes the most sense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jul 26 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]485681[/snapback]</div>

Oh... they didn't bother much with the "market & Sell" step in the EV1 program either....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Jul 25 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]484850[/snapback]</div>

It's odd, too, how Lutz refers to "beating the Japanese," instead of focusing on creating a better product. I really think, if this sentiment is true, he ought to go back into retirement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 26 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]485709[/snapback]</div>

Yeah... I'm afraid that the whole "beating the Japanese" cat has already left the bag. Day late and a dollar short, anybody?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 26 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]485607[/snapback]</div>

Actually, we are in agreement ... just need some clarification. Parallel hybrids like Honda's Integrated Motor Assist do have technical limitations but not the Hybrid Synergy Drive. That is why you don't see them with EV mode.

You see, all Toyota hybrids (HSD) can operate in series or parallel mode. In the PHEV Prius case, it can operate in electric only mode to 62 MPH. Accelerate harder or battery runs low and the engine will kick in to assist (parallel hybrid mode). You come to a stop and the computer decides that it is the best time to recharge the battery... now you are back in series mode. If you put it into reverse, it will still be in series mode while recharging the battery. You accelerate forward with both ICE and battery providing power, you are back in the parallel hybrid mode. The switch between series and parallel mode happens so many times that you don't notice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 26 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]485607[/snapback]</div>

In a pure electric car with a range extender ICE like the Volt, the battery will need to provide maximum hp. You down-size the battery and the peak power goes down. In the case of Volt, the high power nano li-fe $20k pack can deliver 160hp for a given number of cells that gets 40 miles range. If you down-size the battery pack for 20 miles range, you are left with the pack that can output 80hp only. We do not have a battery technology that can output 160hp and have 20 mile range. That is what I mean by Volt's technological limitation. Rav4-EV's NiMH pack makes 67hp and get 125 miles range. EV1's NiMH pack makes 137hp with 100 miles range.

You may be thinking Volt's diesel engine can kick in and assist the big electric motor thru the generator. If this happens, Volt will become series hybrid and NOT an electric car. Range extender ICE is not to assist. It's purpose is to as the name suggest, extend the range so you can get home. It is very important to distinguish and Bob Lutz made this clear in an interview with MSNBC. He basically told the engineer to use the last drop of the allowed battery power and then use the ICE.

HSD has advantages of both series and parallel hybrid models. HSD requires smaller battery and it has the advantage now because the price of the battery pack is very high. For the best bang (MPG) for the buck, HSD is the best solution now. Once the nano lithium battery become much cheaper ($5k), Volt will be very expensive to mass produce and be limited in production like the Prius.

The order of cars that need less to more powerful battery:
Start/Stop Micro hybrid -> Parallel Hybrid (IMA) -> Series/Parallel Hybrid (HSD) -> Series/Parallel Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV Prius) -> Series Hybrid (train locomotive, no cars yet) -> Series Plug-in Hybrid (none yet) -> Electric car with range extender (Volt) -> Pure Electric car (EV1/Rav4-EV)

Required Battery Power in the same order:
0.25 kWh -> 1 kWh -> 1.5 kWh -> 3 kWh -> 5 kWh to 40 kWh Extremely High power -> 5 kWh to 40 kWh Extremely High power -> 16 kWh High power -> 30 kWh High Density