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Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Comparing hybrid sedans is a little like pitting Rush Limbaugh against Al Gore in a Thunderdome-style death match. The fight itself might put you to sleep, but the results, which speak volumes about the commitment of the combatants, will have everyone taking notice.

    Despite the politics, now is a good time to compare hybrids. Environmental factors, ever-increasing fuel costs and the simple need for social responsibility are creating a market ripe for the hybrid. Manufacturers are responding with midsize sedans — the most popular car segment in the largest car market in the world.

    We've assembled the three big players in this segment: Nissan's 2007 Altima Hybrid, Saturn's 2007 Aura Green Line and Toyota's 2007 Camry Hybrid. We left out Honda's Accord Hybrid since it's been discontinued for the 2008 model year. We're simply looking for the best car by factoring in fuel economy, performance, price and usability in an all-out slugfest of green.

    Full Article
    So here are the excerpts:


    "The Camry and Altima are each certified as Advanced Technology-Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles (AT-PZEV). This means the tailpipe emissions are 90 percent cleaner than the average new vehicle, the fuel system has zero evaporative emissions and the powertrain carries a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty. Meanwhile, the Aura is certified as a Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV)."

    - hmm.. not even ULEV? I think Edmunds might've made a mistake???


    "Toyota proved it's got the fuel economy game wrapped up, as the Camry produced the best combined mileage of our test group with 43.2 mpg over both loops — 44.5 mpg in the city and 42.6 mpg on the highway. The Altima's fuel economy in the city actually proved marginally better than the Camry's at 47.3 mpg, but its 38.1 mpg on the highway dropped its combined rating to 40.1 mpg .

    The Aura wasn't even close. Its combined fuel economy was just 26 mpg, largely as a result of its 18.9 mpg in city driving — where it doesn't benefit from true electric-only propulsion like the Camry and Altima. On the highway loop, the Aura produced 31.5 mpg."

    "The Camry again came out on top, producing 32.6 mpg. At 31.5 mpg, the Altima is a close 2nd, while the Aura lags behind at 24.5 mpg."


    "The Aura's acceleration and handling didn't win it any points against its competition, either. It was off the pace in acceleration to 60 mph, where it registered an embarrassing 11.0-second time — more than 2.5 seconds behind the 2nd-place Camry. The story is the same in the quarter-mile, where the Aura posts a 17.9-second time at 81.8 mph."

    And we thought the Prius was slow!

    "The Aura did win points with several features that the Altima and Camry simply don't have. Its mild hybrid system requires fewer batteries, which are traditionally packaged in the trunk of most hybrid sedans. Less intrusion by the batteries means more trunk space than both of the other cars. The Aura also has a 60/40-split folding rear seat, which the Altima didn't have, while the Camry makes a half-hearted attempt with a split-folding design that's partially blocked by batteries. The Aura is also the only car in the group that comes standard with an emergency assistance system (OnStar)."

    Finally, something positive. Gotta post that right otherwise someone might think I was skewing the report

    "The Camry hits 60 mph in 8.4 seconds and stops the quarter-mile clock in 16.2 seconds at 87.5 mph. Sixty to zero required 134 feet — the shortest stop in this group. And despite a softer ride, the Camry nearly equals the Altima's handling numbers by circling the skid pad at 0.76g and splitting the slalom cones at 61.0 mph."
     
    #1 Tideland Prius, Jul 23, 2007
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 23 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]483955[/snapback]</div>
    That's likely to be correct. In non-CARB states, the traditional Aura only achieves a Bin-5 rating.

    Of course, the ULEV rating doesn't represent an improvement over the typical non-hybrid anyway.
     
    #2 john1701a, Jul 24, 2007
  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    One thing that stood out in the review is that Aura Green Line has a 4 kilowatt motor-generator. That translates into a little over 5 hp. So, it's not surprise it can't do much and can only do full electric at up to ~3 mph.
     
    #3 cwerdna, Jul 24, 2007
  4. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    Full electric up to 3 MPH?? That's just gravity. what a joke. Guess I'll keep my LOW-MPG, high polluting, slow, versatile hatchback Prius...and watch GM blunder the hybrid name. sheesh.
     
    #4 finman, Jul 24, 2007
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Here's... Jonny's take on BAS last summer:

    I can't see how it won't be successful. It's a small premium for a nice performance/economy gain.
     
    #5 john1701a, Jul 24, 2007
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yeah that 3mph EV mode is rather amusing. Even the mild hybrid HCH-II can do better than that.
     
    #6 Tideland Prius, Jul 24, 2007
  7. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Camry Hybrid gets 17.2 MPG more and 2.5 second faster than Aura. TCH emission is also about 90% cleaner. TCH 2008 model will start at 25k which will make only 3k difference than Aura.

    Performance and fuel economy are worth the difference and cleaner emission is just icing on the cake. Talk about HSD technological superiority...

    Camry Hybrid is the only one in the comparision with 10 years / 150k miles HV battery warrenty.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...5/pageId=127070
     
    #7 usbseawolf2000, Jul 24, 2007
  8. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Another choice quote (from http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...5/pageNumber=2)

    "On the other hand, tthe Saturn Aura Hybrid feels like a weak four-cylinder car that gets crappy mileage. (Over the 50-mile city route I averaged 19 mpg.) True, it has a different hybrid system than the Toyota and a much smaller battery pack. And it costs significantly less and thus puts a hybrid within reach of more drivers. But this is a case of getting what you pay for. If this Aura is the best GM can do to date, it bodes ill for the much-anticipated Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid."
     
    #8 cwerdna, Jul 25, 2007
  9. NoVaSnow

    NoVaSnow Member

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    I didn't appreciate the following subtle dig that had to be aimed at Prius:

    What took so long is a misconception by car manufacturers that a hybrid powertrain needs to have unique (i.e., repugnant) styling, and that bizarre dynamics are acceptable.
     
    #9 NoVaSnow, Jul 25, 2007
  10. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoVaSnow @ Jul 25 2007, 06:56 AM) [snapback]484599[/snapback]</div>
    Why, lots of people think the Prius is ugly. Styling is very subjective.

    I didn't appreciate that nowhere do they mention that Nissan is licensing Toyota's hybrid technology. Yes, Nissan is using their own engine and CVT but they purchased the rest from Toyota.
     
    #10 JSH, Jul 26, 2007
  11. allargon

    allargon Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jul 24 2007, 06:08 AM) [snapback]484054[/snapback]</div>
    It's also $7K cheaper than that Camry and a gazillion times better looking than the hideous Altima. The Aura is mild. It doesn't even claim to be a real hybrid. The gasoline engine just shuts off at stop signs.
     
    #11 allargon, Jul 26, 2007
  12. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(allargon @ Jul 26 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]485772[/snapback]</div>
    I do not know, I think the Altima looks just fine. The price difference if you compare base prices is $3855, not $7K. The price difference between the Aura mild hybrid and Altima is just $2355.

    There is the tax credit though. The HyCam has a $650 credit until 9/30/07 vs. $1300 for Aura right now vs. Altima Hybrid w/$2350.

    http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157632,00.html
    http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoVaSnow @ Jul 25 2007, 04:56 AM) [snapback]484599[/snapback]</div>
    Although I feel the Prius is funny looking, I think it was aimed just about as much at the Insight. As for bizarre dynamics... the regenerative brakes are funky at first. I've driven the Escape Hybrid and Accord Hybrid before I had a Prius and IIRC, the Escape also had funky brakes (don't remember about Accord).
     
    #12 cwerdna, Jul 27, 2007
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