Japan Certifies Toyota Plug-in Hybrid for Public-road Tests

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 22 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]483347[/snapback]</div>

Kyocera installed a "Solar Grove" over their parking lot a year or two ago. The parking lot is shaded with solar panels. It keeps the cars cool and generates all of the power needs for the building. I don't think it would be too hard to have recharging stations under a solar grove. And to put a solar grove over the parking lots at grocery stores and malls. The recharging stations could be the closest to the door and be preferential parking for EVs. I imagine those with EVs would prefer to shop at a store than provides them with a charge. So it would be a good business move on the part of far thinking mall owners to install Solar Groves and advertise the preferential parking/free charge to all EV customers.

 

I think it may be a commute car initally but there would be no reason that a car getting 150-250 miles per charge wouldn't be useful to a very large no. of people. You would not have to charge up during the day. I think the idea of plugging in during the day would be to be able to sell back to the grid, which is theoretically feasable anyway. You put solar power on your parking lot and then sell the power back to the power company.

Also someone mentioned the problem of where the energy comes from from charging but then again hybrids are very efficient. Most people will plug in when the grid is less used which is good for the power company as well making it more efficient.

Some of us in the west are getting (or will be getting-- not yet for me) wind energy. This would be an ideal source of power for plug ins.

--des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Jul 22 2007, 11:23 PM) [snapback]483407[/snapback]</div>

 

Cheap! is right..... the technology is here. This is why Tesla Motors is going all out to get a car factory built. The guy with all the money (Elon Musk) is an engineer and this allows him to see clearly what the big three are completely blind to. Please see

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8

Stunning huh! The technology is not only here, it has been here for years. (Not advertising for Tesla, just pointing out the thinking of those with money and brains.) The PHEV is fully viable with lead acid batteries from 50 years ago! Too many are not waiting for the next crisis and will put up with a huge capital expense or less than perfect performance. (e.g. Cheap!, CalCars, etc.). The 10 ton gorilla waiting in the background is the AVAILIBILTY of gas, not the price. Economics is based on supply and demand. Economics fails completely when faced off against physics. (No oil = No oil). Every economic argument against the Prius (and I've heard them all) is based on the here and now, never the future, and absolutely refuses to acknowledge crisis events.

The core point from all this is to point out those that are spending money are spending it wisely, and are not letting economic approaches of the here and now blind them to the future. (Clue-How close is the Prius to an all electric car? How close to a production PHEV? Is Toyota blind to this?) Those that can connect the dots...do. Others complain about the spots.

 

Though I believe Tesla is about $100,000 (though in all fairness it is not really a consumer car-- it is
designed as a toy for the rich-- Jay Leno wrote an interesting review of it-- talking about the wealthy supporting R&D for expensive stuff. I think it is a fair point. ). They are going to build in
Albuquerque and there they will build a $50,000 car. I heard that plans are in the works for lower
price models at some point.

They supposedly will have something like 400 jobs--hmmm.

--des



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jul 23 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]483848[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jul 24 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]483848[/snapback]</div>

How long is the Tesla warranty?
Do they offer 10 years 150,000 miles?

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ Jul 24 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]483998[/snapback]</div>

I think Altair recently said they would be prepared to offer a 10 year warranty on their lithium-titanate batteries. Also A123 have said that they have already met GMs specifications for LiIon with their nano-phosphate battery at the cell level, and GM's requirements included a 10 year calender life. Of course neither have been tested for actual calender life yet, so the current claims have been projected from the chemistry and the fact that they manage thousands of fast, deep cycles in the lab without degradation. Time will tell....

 

Thank you for your comments.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Jul 24 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]484044[/snapback]</div>

Then, can we say "the technology is here" now?

Found one at...
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativef...64/article.html
"Five-year/100,000-mile warranty on the battery pack"

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 22 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]483347[/snapback]</div>

This is actually a new market opportunity. Swipe your credit card to use the plug in a public lot at a rate 10-15% above your residential electric rate for the convenience of charging on the go. It will still be cheaper than gasoline. Of course it will happen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(des101 @ Jul 24 2007, 12:39 AM) [snapback]483980[/snapback]</div>

Yes the Tesla Roadster is a toy for the rich. I also admit that GM can layoff more people in one day than Tesla could hire in a year. But please read the link I provided on the previous post to understand that the Tesla Owner is the first to point this out and why. There is some very serious business money pouring into electric cars and advanced batteries. Not "research" money that never reaches you and me, but "product" money that is totally committed to cars and components thay you and I can buy (with $100,000 :lol: )

The transition to all electric cars will not be the domain of one company whether Tesla, Toyota, GM or any other. My point (based on the point Cheap! was making) is that there will be winners and losers in this transition. The car companies that are thinking ahead, the service market that thinks ahead (What replaces gas stations?), the car buyers that think ahead, are going to be MUCH better off than those that wait for the "economics" to work out. How many Prius owners realize that their decision was smarter than they initially thought? I know I am one. How do you feel?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GatorJoe @ Jul 20 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]482451[/snapback]</div>

Patently UNTRUE. Powering an automobile from electricity, even on the dirtiest electricity we have - is easier on the environment, and less energy intensive than using gasoline for the same vehicle. This has been proven time after time, and has not been refuted by any peer-reviewed study. I understand that this veiw is the commonly held one. Please understand that it is wrong. It is called the "long tailpipe" theory; that an electric car does nothing to reduce pollution - just move it to the power generator.

The most recent, highly-regarded study on this just came out last week, and can be found here:
http://www.epri-reports.org/



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rogerSC @ Jul 22 2007, 05:40 PM) [snapback]483328[/snapback]</div>

Where does this stuff come from!? It is NOT TRUE. Every US state that has studied this has come to the opposite conclusion. The US Federal government has come to the opposite conclusion. Every other country that has studied this has come to the opposite conclusion. Every respected scientific body that has studied this has come to the opposite conclusion. The only way you can support this claim is if you completely ignore all the upstream pollution from gasoline production and distribution, and include all upstream pollution from electricity production and distribution. But what good is that sort of comparison?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 22 2007, 06:36 PM) [snapback]483347[/snapback]</div>

Ok... some comments here.
* Even though every parking lot does not have power, there are still WAY the heck more power outlets in this world than gas stations. In some cold regions lots already have power for block heaters that won't be needed for battery cars, and can be used to charge instead.
* Not every lot will "need" a power outlet, just like every lot doesn't now need a gas station. Most cars in the US don't travel anywhere NEAR the range of "classic" EVs like mine, and of course newer ones will have greater range. If it is just PHEVs we're talking about, they never "need" to plug in at all!
* Who pays for the electricity infrastructure? Who pays for the gasoline infrastructure? Whoever can benefit from its installation, that's who. It may be your employer. It may be the movie theater, the restaurant, the coffee shop. It may be energy providers. It may be your city parking garage. It will be a combination of all these and more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Jul 22 2007, 08:23 PM) [snapback]483407[/snapback]</div>

Well, then they're practical starting over eleven years ago. We use our BEV every single day, and often only charge it one night out of two. I normally don't charge it except while I'm sleeping. We put 12,000 miles a year on that car. FAR more than on our Prius.

Somebody needs to tell my 13-year-old battery chemistry this! We now have 5-year-old private EVs with well over 100,000 miles on the existing battery packs - still getting the same range as they did when new. And all this is on battery technology that isn't there yet. I can't wait until we get there!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 22 2007, 09:55 PM) [snapback]483437[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely! And this is exactly the concept that Costco in CA has adopted. Offer up $1 of electricity, and invite drivers to come and spend money in your store! We have really backed away from the preferential spaces though, since they aren't always full - people get ticked off, and vandalism is on the rise.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(des101 @ Jul 23 2007, 09:39 PM) [snapback]483980[/snapback]</div>

I guess you could say it was designed as a toy for the rich. But it isn't as trivial as it sounds. There was no other way to reliably enter the market. As a startup, you simply can't come into the market with a low-margin, high volume car to make some of your investment back. You've got to come in with a low volume, high-margin car - this the "rich toy" aspect. If they can turn this corner and get going with the $50k and then the $30k cars, we'll have to give them a LOT of credit for bringing this "toy" to market.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ Jul 24 2007, 02:58 AM) [snapback]484045[/snapback]</div>

I think I can. Because some 11-year-old technology is currently parked in my garage and charging. And it has been serving our needs daily.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jul 24 2007, 07:24 PM) [snapback]484478[/snapback]</div>

Well said!

I don't get too excited about my gasoline Prius. But I'll tell you what... Seven years ago when I started driving EVs, I was the blach sheep of the neighborhood. Everybody thought I was more than a little bit off my rocket. Fast forward to $3.00 gasoline and suddenly I'm brilliant... for doing the same thing I was doing seven years ago. No, I don't "realize" that my decision was smarter than I originally thought. Anybody could see the writing on the wall - my only surprise is that it didn't get her sooner, and isn't yet worse. $3.00 gas is still insanely cheap.

 

July 25, 2007
Tokyo — TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION (TMC) announced today that it has developed a plug-in hybrid vehicle and become the first manufacturer to have such a vehicle certified for use on public roads in Japan.

The TOYOTA Plug-in HV — certified for public road-use by Japan's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport — uses, like earlier TMC-developed hybrid vehicles, both a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine and an electric motor. But increased battery capacity gives it a longer electric-motor-only cruising range and a battery-charging device allows users to replenish the batteries using household electricity. These features enable the vehicle to run more often in gasoline-free, electric-only mode, such as on short trips in city driving. The resulting fuel efficiency improvements mean lower CO2 emissions and less fossil fuel consumption and, therefore, less pollution. Also, charging the battery with less-expensive nighttime electricity lowers total running costs, providing an economic benefit to owners.

Although challenges still exist in the development of pure electric vehicles such as a limited cruising range and issues related to cost, TMC still views plug-in hybrid vehicles as a promising technology for allowing electricity to serve as a viable power source for automobiles and is committed to their continued development as a key environmental technology.

TMC plans to conduct public-road tests in Japan with eight units of the TOYOTA Plug-in HV to verify electric-motor-only cruising ranges and optimal battery capacity. While doing so, it plans to provide the government with data for formulating testing methods for emissions and fuel efficiency and to consider TMC's measures for promoting plug-in hybrids and the use of electricity. There are also plans to conduct public-road tests of the TOYOTA Plug-in HV in the United States and in Europe.

Full release and specs

Ken@Japan

 

Darell you made so many good points here. I am reading the book "Plug-in Hybrids: Cars that will recharge America". Very good book and understandable in every respect. she makes many of these points, and one that is often cited is the idea that if you have a coal power plant and you recharge your car with power from a coal plant it is STILL more energy efficient and "greener" than a straight hybrid car. One reason is that power companies can do things to control pollution and so on at one point sources easier than cars can with many sources. Another is that plug-in hybrids are very efficient. As we know, like regular hybrids they use regenerative braking, but there are other ways they are efficient.

We have the infrastructure. Many people have houses or at least condos or apartments where it may be possible to plug in. I can see apartment contracts with leases that might allow this (for a price). They don't even NEED to plug in. YOu could go on a trip and the car would just act like a regular hybrid. I think that the cost factor will make people want to make parking lots and so forth be plug-in stations.


Most of us do not make commutes that are so long that a plug in is impractical. A 30 mile commute I think is average (maybe above average), and quite doable with current technology. In fact, I would bet many people would be quite able to use totally electric cars with a range of say 20-30 miles per day.

I did mention Tesla as a toy for the rich. I think that in so doing it might have sounded critical. I didn't mean to be so. They can do valid/valuable R&D while being financed by people like Jay Leno, who have the cash for this. Many technologies were originally toys for the rich, including PCs and cell phones. They go down in price as the technology becomes better. If eventually it could go down to $30,000 or less, well then we are talking about a lot of customers even if they are in a higher income bracket than i am. Eventually it could go down further, but it gets there by people willing to pay and help develop a product.


--des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 25 2007, 12:35 AM) [snapback]484520[/snapback]</div>

 

Toyota to test plug-in hybrid, rivaling GM according to the New York Times, with test in US and Japan. Test vehicles will be provided to researchers at the University of California, Irvine campus and Berkley campus as part of a 'pilot program'. Each prototype will be powered by two extra large NiMH batteries.
Link==> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/business...ml?ref=business

 

How about a picture for you?
http://response.jp/issue/2007/0725/article97277_1.html

 

The specifications in the press-release are very curious.

The test vehicle appears to be a Prius with two of the existing (ie 2004-2007) 1.3 kWh NiMH battery packs in parallel (for 2.6 kWh total).

The 8-mile EV range would require about 1.6 kWh on that gentle test cycle, so it looks like they are cycling the batteries over about 60% SOC.

I notice too that the test vehicle is not much heavier than the existing Prius, and if it really is using just two of the normal 2004 battery packs as it's main battery, it could theoretically retail for only ~$1,000 more than the base Prius (would anyone here spend an extra $1,000 to get an 8 mile EV range?). Development costs would be very low and all the safety etc has already been done for these packs, which are already being manufactured.

Could be a very low cost route to a (small range, admittedly) PHEV....

 

An interesting one is EV mode maximum vehicle speed is 100km/h (62 mph).

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ Jul 25 2007, 07:22 AM) [snapback]484596[/snapback]</div>

Yes, the PSD must have been modified to allow the higher speed without spinning the engine. The motor appears to be the same 50 kW unit.

Also, peak power output from the battery seems to be up from today's 21 kW (28 hp) to 44 kW (59 hp), again fitting with having two standard packs. This probably also helps get to 60 mph.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 25 2007, 12:35 AM) [snapback]484520[/snapback]</div>

Well, then they're practical starting over eleven years ago. We use our BEV every single day, and often only charge it one night out of two. I normally don't charge it except while I'm sleeping. We put 12,000 miles a year on that car. FAR more than on our Prius.
[/b][/quote]
darelldd,

I failed to qualify my statement: I had meant that plug-ins won't be able to completely replace gasoline cars until they get better range on a single charge, which will be possible with the new technology being developed. I didn't meant to imply that they aren't viable now, though on rereading my statement, it did seem that way. Also, my comment about plugging in at every stop wasn't to imply that's the current situation-- it was in response to an earlier post.

I'm looking forward to when electrics can completely eliminate the need for cars using gas, diesel, etc. And that's where I don't think we're at yet. The fact that you use an electric proves they're useful, but that you also have a Prius is evidence that we're still reliant on gasoline.