Observations from the Park

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]482547[/snapback]</div>

Conservative here, and thrilled to see you taking another look at this issue.

I didn't see this as you passing judgement on the woman, but more as passing judgement on the moral dilema that she exposed within your earshot. This is more about you examining and seeing what's in your heart about this matter than some woman you'll never see again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FiftyOneMPG @ Jul 20 2007, 08:17 PM) [snapback]482567[/snapback]</div>

what a bunch of crap----while we are killing people all over the world through our industry and war--this is the time to find peace in your heart about abortion?? Now that sounds like a moral dilema to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluejay @ Jul 20 2007, 09:31 PM) [snapback]482577[/snapback]</div>

"killing people all over the world through our industry and war"??

Even for a typical PC poster, that's a pretty broad statement. Care to be more specific? For example, what industry are we killing people through? What parts of the world are we at war in besides Iraq, and possibly Afghanistan?

Your statement takes me back to, oh about 1968 or so. Where ARE those love beads? I want to join the People's Army and fight the industrial-military machine!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Jul 20 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]482593[/snapback]</div>

Do you live under a rock or just watching FOX NEWS. "That's a pretty broad statement, can you be more specific"--sounding like an intellectual elite. Find your own facts. . like anything I say would matter.

Yeah, I am a tree hugging, power to the people kinda of gal. I doubt you've ever worn love beads. Sorry for you, it's a great feeling!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]482547[/snapback]</div>

Me personally? "I don't know what I don't know." :lol: :lol:
But when I agree with a stance that the ACLU takes on a subject (happens very infrequently), I too experience a moral dilemma and have to yell out . . . "I dunnoooooo." :wacko:
Does that count?

Pinto Girl: I hope you don't think I was using your personal revelation against you. My reply was aimed squarely at Godiva's totally inflexible and what I personally consider naive, "Oh...and end war. Either you're for the sanctity of life or you're not. You can't be for it until birth and then against it from that point on. Otherwise you appear to be against abortion simply to supply cannonfodder for the next war."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluejay @ Jul 20 2007, 07:37 PM) [snapback]482611[/snapback]</div>

Find your own facts??? :huh: :huh:
I believe what bluejay would have liked to say is,"I don't know" . . . but, unfortunately, bluejay has a little more work to do in order to reach the self actualization stage demonstrated by Pinto Girl. :lol:

- - -
I do realize that abortion has its place - just not always. I disagree with abortion as a form of repetitive birth control. I vehemently disagree with pregnant girls under 18 getting moral and ethical advice from everyone EXCEPT her parents. The government needs to quit interfering with parents' rights to raise their children in the manner they see as appropriate. I also disagree with late-term abortions . . . unless it is done for the physical health of the mother.
I am very inflexible with my belief that war is not going to magically disappear from humans' nature as a result of "some people" holding hands, singing Kumbaya, and saying, "can't we all just get along?"
IT JUST AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN . . . but wouldn't it be nice.

 

Pintogirl & Sufferin', you guys are my heroes.

. . . at least on this issue.

Abortion is one of those "hot button issues" that seems to have people on either side of the aisle screaming at each other without either side really listening. I'm so sick of the abortion arguments that happen between the two extreme sides, never really giving anyone that's not an extremist any voice and, more to the point, never advancing beyond the shrill screaming.

The people at the extremes rarely actually think about their position and leave those of us who actually have some confusion about the issue feeling like we're some sort of monsters: either you're killing babies or you're trying to tell a woman what she should do with her body.

I consider myself pro-choice, but I'm also able to observe that, at the end of the pregnancy carried to term, a baby comes out. The logical conclusion is that, at some point, a zygote becomes a baby. I'm completely in favor of abortion being legal, but I'm not OK with aborting something that would be called a baby (maybe "viable outside the womb" is a reasonable standard, but I also don't think that the threshold should be defined by the standard of your neonatal care facility). I think this point of view is one of the most reasonable, scientifically-based points of view in the debate (of course I do, it's mine ), but it's also a point of view that will get you torn apart by both sides.

I'm happy to admit that I don't know (Thanks, Pintogirl) when in the pregnancy a zygote becomes a baby and I'm sure there are some deep issues here that I don't understand. One of the problems with the level of debate these days, however, is that neither side is trying to get you to understand the issues; they just want you on their side so they can "win."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 20 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]482547[/snapback]</div>

I applaud your honesty and introspection.

That is all very risky.

You might be curious (but probably not) about how I chose my church (PCUS). They have a very introspective tradition -- and I can't tell you how many times I've asked a question and the answer was, "I don't know."

That answer set my soul free.

And I don't know either!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FiftyOneMPG @ Jul 19 2007, 08:53 PM) [snapback]481958[/snapback]</div>

"The soul does not enter the body, until the head is out of the womb." (Talmud)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Jul , 06:41 AM)</div>

I agree with everything you said, except your usage of the word "baby". A zygote becomes a baby when it is born, by definition. Look it up. While it is in the womb, it is called a fetus. The use of the word "baby" to describe a fetus, viable or not, is simply incorrect and is commonly and purposely misused by the pro-zygote crowd. Don't fall for it. And I agree that abortion should be legal up to the point where the fetus is viable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul , 05:07 PM)</div>

You caught a very unflattering snapshot from this woman's life. You don't know what she was saying or thinking the day or the week before. I would imagine that she is running through a whole spectrum of emotions, and was gathering information by talking to someone who has been through it. She may have also talked with people who decided to not to abort. Or maybe I just have more faith in people than they deserve. Who knows?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 19 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]481903[/snapback]</div>

I applaud your candor about something so personally perplexing, and do not in the least mean to "pick on" you for it, but I am puzzled by your reaction.

If the fetus is "just a clump of cells" then the young lady is going in for a procedure like a polypectomy.

If the fetus is a human being, it is premeditated homicide.

In order to be something that is, on the one hand, permissible, and on the other, only to be undertaken after serious, contemplative, selfless consideration, abortion would need to represent the destruction of something "nearly human, but not quite." I question the wisdom of creating such a legal, or moral, status for anything or anyone.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Jul 21 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]482969[/snapback]</div>

Just because that concept does not fit your set of beliefs, does not make those a ascribe to it unwise.

Orthodox Judaism holds that in the womb, a fetus is considered to be a life but not yet a fully fledged person. As soon as the head comes out into the world, it is a person. In terms of the soul, until birth, the soul hovers around the body of the fetus; only at birth does the soul actually enter the body. This intermediary status of the fetus means that its life is not equal to that of the mother's; thus, if the fetus threatens the mother's life, it is permissible, actually mandatory, to abort.

Let me suggest that the sages of the Talmud were exponentially wiser than you are.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 21 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]482978[/snapback]</div>

Very interesting. And I mean that sincerely.

I have some questions, if you feel like answering. These are not meant to bait you, but to help me see how others might view the world. In fact, I don't have an answer within my own faith tradition to some of these questions, so I'm not trying to argue. Wisdom is always welcome whether or not I can ultimately agree.

Where did the soul come from before it hovered around?

If the fetus died, would the soul get a second shot?

(I ask this because I have a friend who had two miscarriages, and believes that when her third pregnancy went to term, that it was the same baby's soul as the previous two attempts. This helps her, so it is fine with me. There's nothing in my faith tradition to deny or support this view.)

When does the soul leave the body?

I watch someone I care about "progress" through Alzheimer's, and I can only hope her soul has escaped. Her essence is still there, if only rarely, so I think I hope in vain. This is more wishful thinking than wisdom or scholarship.

Thanks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 22 2007, 05:30 PM) [snapback]483324[/snapback]</div>

I am a secular Jew who knows just enough about the tenets of the faith to get me in trouble. B)

The few rabbis and rabbinical students who used to post here have been absent for a while. I'd have to ask some questions and do additional research in order to answer your question. Please be patient.

In the meantime, here are a few of starting points, specific and general:

The Soul of a Fetus

ABORTION - YES OR NO?

PRE-NATAL TESTING

The Talmud

Judaism 101

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 22 2007, 09:44 PM) [snapback]483351[/snapback]</div>

Fascinating and thought-provoking reading. I was surprised by the original sin - no abortion connection. I've never heard that before. Though I'm from a tradition that is deeply into total depravity, it's more the idea that everyone is going to sin and sin abundantly at some point (or rather, lots of points and then keep right on sinning). Babies haven't had that chance yet. Baptism is a symbolic act. Baptism of the heart is not. In other words, babies are not going to hell. If the mother's life is in danger, the mother's life gets saved.

I was very surprised by the Ask the Rabbi's opinion on abortion. He's more conservative than I am! He is also very eloquent and persuasive, and seems full of wisdom and compassion. I'm going to read more.

In fact, I have bookmarked all four sites. Not sure I'm going to make it through the Talmud, but at least when I come across a reference to it, I have the hope of finding the text.

Thank you for taking the trouble to educate me and answer my questions.

 

I'm sometimes troubled by what appears to be callousness on the part of the young. I think that's a sign of getting older.

I think, in this case, it seems so callous because of our frame of reference; when some of us were born, any kind of birth control was illegal. For anyone over 40, we remember that girls who became pregnant were often sent away, and people in the community whispered. Those that sought abortions to avoid the very real social shunning sometimes died from the procedure. It seems inconceivable that someone could take the wide range of choices available today so casually, without any more concern than they have when deciding on which flavor ice cream to enjoy.

But we do that today with a lot of things, such as clean water. We expect the water coming out of our tap to be free of diseases. But throughout recent human history, contaminated water was a major killer. It is one of our modern miracles that water borne diseases are all but non-existent in this country. But how many of us think of that when we draw a glass and start to drink? Is our nonchalance a sign of success in providing the clean water?

Because of the other life involved, who doesn't have any choice in the matter, this seems different. But for these girls there never was a time when you didn't have a number of choices. Because she is early in her pregnancy the life inside of her is more of an intellectual problem. Her frame of reference is that she has a problem, and she has to choose a solution. Her friends are giving her input on one of the most common solutions. So while its shocking that its all so matter of fact, its probably to be expected. Perhaps it would be different for her if she were farther along and had felt the baby move, or if she already had children. But right now, its no different than having the oral hygienist tell you there's a cavity that needs to be filled, or it will cause you pain later. Got a problem, need a solution.

I also think its grotesque. Its a cheapening of life. I would feel better if the young woman had some greater reservations, or thought about keeping the baby, or giving it up for adoption. And who knows, perhaps her outing with her 'abortion friends' was part of that wider search for a solution and she is looking into those alternatives.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jul 20 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]482066[/snapback]</div>

Well, if someone had asked me, and if that had been the case, and I then could ask them, 'What will my life be like?' and then I was told, all of the crap that would happen to me, I would have then said, 'Yeah, kill me.'


HOWEVER, since that is not a possibility, at all, it's a mute point. Weird how we care more for a human that is not a being yet, and less for a human that is a being now.

Pinto, I feel for you. And I'm glad you helped the elderly woman. It's something I would have, (and have), done.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul , 12:00 AM)</div>

Well, if someone had asked me, and if that had been the case, and I then could ask them, 'What will my life be like?' and then I was told, all of the crap that would happen to me, I would have then said, 'Yeah, kill me.'
[/b][/quote]
And that's exactly the point. Fetuses have no ability to understand the situation they're in - no ability to care. How many would say "oh, it's OK, just kill me" = 0. How many would say "Spare me! Spare me!" = 0.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 23 2007, 03:00 AM) [snapback]483495[/snapback]</div>

HOw sad! They have medication for that.

And who knows -- something wonderful might happen to you yet!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Jul 23 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]483549[/snapback]</div>

My mother is old and wants to die. Does this mean I should kill her?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul , 07:00 AM)</div>

You're getting into a different realm here. Not being a fetus, your mother has the rights of a person - including protection from murder. So, no - you should not kill her.