Why driving a Prius is really not enough

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 19 2007, 03:36 PM) [snapback]481748[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't saying I thought it was a good idea, just that it's a fact.

FWIW, it's like a lot of other health care. Once upon a time it was a beneficial treatment for high-risk patients for whom other therapies proved unsuccessful (eg, persons with genetic predisposition to high cholesterol and heart disease). Use was restricted to a small set of people. But the (medical establishment's estimate of the) net benefit is positive for persons with lower risks, so use has diffused into the general population. Shoot, my cholesterol falls in the normal range and my doc suggested I might try it just to get it lower. Because -- the numbers show a net benefit from lower cholesterol, net of reported adverse effects of the statins. He was just doing his job. I declined.

The result is that large fraction of the older US population now takes statins. Last year lipitor was the #1 selling drug in the US in dollar terms. If enough people take it, it may have an impact on the mortality advantage of low-animal-fat diets. That's all I was trying to say. It's a factor now that was not present in historical studies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stringmike @ Jul 19 2007, 05:20 PM) [snapback]481827[/snapback]</div>

There are two types of people in this world: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't. I wanted to be 4th or 5th here to thank you for that extremely reasonable post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 19 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]481765[/snapback]</div>

Checked around and this statement is absolutely correct. One just needs to eat a wide variety of plant foods and they're assured they'll receive adequate protein intake. I cannot find ONE reliable site that specifies the duration under which amino acids need to be combined. A ton of the sites are obviously biased pro veggie or vegan sites so I opted to ignore their data. But all of the more neutral site specify as you did above. Since I'm already conscious of combining amino acids, I'll probably still do it but it'll surely be less often as it certainly isn't too convenient all of the time. I never thought to re-research this as this isn't an area that would be doing me harm. Good girl, Rae.

 

It's mind boggling/blowing to read this particular thread, having come from more of a cooking background as well as having read up on a lot of weight loss/body building information.

And even on the flip side, I was watching a video a couple evenings ago about a meat farming practice that ingeniously natural. The site for this farm is here, and I'd encourage people in that particular area to check it out (even if I consider some of their meat to be pricey).

Personally, though I don't need meat at every meal or every day (some of you may argue that I don't need it all), but I'd have a hard time getting through the day without some form of animal product, usually cheese or butter. From a cooking perspective, cooking a meat-based meal is far easier and less complicated (at least for me) than it is to prepare a meatless meal, with the exception of packaged prepared meals, e.g. Ramen, Mac & Cheese, etc. There's just a lot more washing, chopping, dicing, julienning, toasting, roasting, steaming going on. With meat, it's almost literally fire and forget.

And though I don't seriously body build, I've known people who do. For them, their knowledge of food and body chemistry is crazy. The general attitude is that you need protein to put on muscle, and meat is very efficient at doing just that. Typical numbers were on the order of 1 g of protein per pound of body weight. Losing weight/fat is a matter of reducing your carbohydrate intake (as the human body is less efficient at processing protein) while retaining protein intake. Though I never did this (I merely counted calories, and tried to emphasize proteins), other people would actually count every single gram of carbohydrate and protein they consumed. These are also the folks that differentiate protein based on its source. If you went to a typical body-builder and recommended that they switch to soy-based proteins, they'd laugh in your face (or the nice ones would explain that soy protein isn't as effective for body building as other protein sources). So it's an interesting change for me to come to this forum, and see advocation of vegetarianism.

I don't really have facts to present or arguments to make here (except for those who feel that I'm a horrible horrible person for eating meat), but I just thought I should contrast the atmosphere here with what I've known from other areas.

 

I've been vegan for about 17 years, after 45 years as a SAD (Standard American Diet) consumer. I've certainly heard the claims from both the pro and anti meat camps. Both camps have their rabid advocates, and some data to back up their points.

I'm just a 62 year old guy trying to save his own bacon. At age 45, I was definitely on the downslope. I'm still on the downslope, but becoming vegan has changed the slope considerably.

The first evidence I got that being vegan was actually delivering something was when I went to my dental hygienist. Without my ever mentioning my new diet, she started going on about how much healthier my gums were. Instead of the usual long brush/floss lecture, she wanted to know what I had changed to get such an improvement.

The protein thing is way overrated. Most vegans eat about the same percentage (about 14%) protein as non-vegans. Those "protein" meats have a lot of fat in them. And absolutely no fiber. My anti-aging doctor and I have a disagreement about the amino acids contributed by meat. He maintains that, for best health, you need 6 grams of carnitine per day. He gets the 6 grams as a serving of meat (2 grams), plus an additional 4 grams in a supplement. I just take the 6 grams as a supplement, avoiding all the fat and contamination issues of meat.

The amino acid arginine is another good component in meat. But again, you can't consume enough meat to get an optimal level of arginine, so just using a supplement looks better. My endocrinologist cleared his CT scan visible calcium over a period of about 10 years by taking 1/2 gram of arginine a day as a supplement. I think all of his patients are now on at least 3 grams a day of the stuff. It has rather offended a cardiologist colleague of his, since he no longer has any patients who need to be referred to the cardiologist.

My current impression of the health effects of a typical vegan diet versus a typical omnivorous diet is that they have different problems. The omnivorous diet leads to vascular problems in the 50s and 60s, sometimes even fatal. Omnivorous women tend to have a rough menopause, and both sexes tend to have cancer issues. The vegan tends to get past the early vascular problems, but develops weakness and mental problems in their 70s and 80s. Vegans tend to have much less problem with cancer. The health effects of dairy are exactly the same as red meat, so I don't see where there is much difference from being omnivorous.

Both diets, but particularly the vegan diet, need supplemental carnitine, arginine, B12, DHA/EPA (omega-3) oils, and vitamins C and D3. Other useful supplements include CoQ10, d-ribose, selenium, and carnosine. Enough D3 would bankrupt the cancer industry by cutting their business in half.

Now, since I don't eat about 2 pounds of meat a week, I guess I get to use an extra 2000 gallons of water a week. Where am I going to put it? The lawn can't use that much.

And since the methane contribution of the cows that I don't eat is so large, maybe I should drive my Prius a bit more. Maybe I'll just leave the air conditioning running while I'm at the mall shopping.

Dang! My carbon footprint just doesn't cut it as an American. Maybe I'll buy some oranges from halfway around the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 20 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]482467[/snapback]</div>

Word!

Today, some of the overpumped guys I see at the gym are so inflexible that they probably can't even bend over to tie their own shoes, let alone walk normally.

Also, in response to a previous comment from another poster, most of us sit on our a**es all day; it's a fact that lots of Americans consume *way* too much protein for the amount of physical activity they're involved with (usually, none). But, you're right...meat is sort of already half prepared...just heat and eat. That's one of the reasons why it's popular in the land of 'I want it now.'

 

Moo!

 

IF animals were not meant to be food...then how come they are made out of meat?

I am sorry but where I am from we raise our own cows and eat them. (Parents have a farm) We also control what they eat let them have great happy lives until its time and MY GOD IS THAT GOOD BEEF!!!
We also eat eggs and I must say chickens and ducks are the best form of garbage disposal I haver ever seen, give em moldy bread, table scraps, I get half rotten salad fixings and even fruit waste from my home brewing of wine and you get great eggs, A Duck omelet is the best!!!

In any case, I am going out to eat at the local Indian restraunt...and not to eat any vegan crap either, they use local Lamb that is to die for.

Yes, I am going to go eat a baby sheep!

 

Reading this looooooong thread has made me hungry. Think I'll jump in my Prius and go down to the Sonic Drive-In and get me a hamburger.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jul 19 2007, 11:00 AM) [snapback]481701[/snapback]</div>

<span style="font-family:Arial">Soylent Green is PEOPLE !!!!!</span>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(not another screenname @ Jul 18 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]481257[/snapback]</div>

Amazing. Tattoo this on your forehead "Better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it."

 

The alternative would be for us to convert to a completely vegan society. It would not be practical for all farmers everywhere to produce organic veggies, so we would still have problems with fertilizers in produce and groundwater, and a tremendous increase is diesel use to power farm equipment and truck veggies to processors and markets. The meat/fish/veggie balance works for all three sources. Removing one will strain and endanger the others.

 

Well, I guess you can add becoming a vegan to my list of ways to help the environment, but not by choice (kidney issues - low protein, low sodium diet).

On the other hand I make the wife taste the steaks, hamburgers, brauts, etc at BBQs and tell me if they are good or not. I will have to live vicariously carnivorously through her. She told me she hates brauts and I told her to tell me how I would have like it. lol

I will let you guys know if I feel healthier in a couple week. At least the hunger pains have gone away. The first couple of weeks I was always starving.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Ed @ Jul 22 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]483303[/snapback]</div>

You can be assured that factory farming is far more damaging to our groundwater than are veggies. Is the following quote enough evidence for you of the ramifications of our meat laden diet and the derogatory effects on our environment?

"Animals fed on grain and those which rely on grazing need more water than grain crops [1]. According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain. [2]. In tracking food animal production from the feed through to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from a 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1. [3] The result is that producing animal-based food is typically much less efficient than the harvesting of grains, vegetables, legumes, seeds and fruits, though this might not be largely true for animal husbandry in the developing world where factory farming is almost non existent, making animal based food much more sustainable."

It's from Wikipedia. I know people may have issues regarding the source, but there is plenty of like information on the internet from differing sources. Surf and ye shall find.

 

I hope that the people who originated the email are eating locally from farms practicing sustainable agriculture, or they themselves aren't practicing what they preach.

Going veggie/vegan on industrially produced foods is like buying a Prius when you could buy an EV and put in a solar array.

(not a knock on anyone here, just saying I hope they too are looking at the big picture)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 18 2007, 12:36 PM) [snapback]480953[/snapback]</div>

Should one consider hunting wild or feral animals ecologically neutral or perhaps a benefit? For example a deer or a feral pig, both pests in many areas, can provide organically grown meat which is produced from plant matter otherwise unuseable by humans.

 

Maybe all the carnivores here could become road-kill-a-tarians...?

That'd probably help.