2007 Model Alignment issues

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jul 4 2007, 03:11 PM) [snapback]473145[/snapback]</div>

Sometimes the lowest initial cost isn't the lowest overall cost. For example, if Toyota has to pay to replace a bunch of rear axle beams on the Prius, the money they saved on the initial fabrication and installation will evaporate quickly. The cost of replacing a part under warranty is much higher than the cost when originally built.

Even though they may be able to build the car at the factory without rear alignment, they should have recognized that in service it may be necessary to align the rear axle. After all, they make shims for other models; what is different about this car that would make rear alignments unnecessary?

 

many cars have a technically-non-adjustable rear. that's why there's a thriving shim kit industry. nobody's put out a kit that fits the prius yet as far as we know, though. and that's the problem.

 

I'm having an experience with my 2005 that is very similar to what dogfriend is going through. My dealer is trying to tell me that a toe of .41º on the left rear is "acceptable," even though the specs say .03º to .28º. (It actually read .45º on my tire guy's machine). This is after I smoked the original tires in 24,000 miles. He's trying to claim that my tire wear happened because of bad alignment on the front, which they've now corrected.

I'm still under warranty but too late for the free alignment, so I paid for this nonsense. That's irrelevant anyway, since the rear is not adjustable. Regardless of who pays, they say they can't fix it and that it's not a big problem anyway. (Not for them: They're not paying for the tires.) My tire guy says it's time for a call to Toyota for a complaint and a warranty claim. He suspects some major issues in the rear suspension. I called today and I'm waiting to hear back from them. If there's warranty work in the offing, I intend to go to different Toyota dealer. I don't like being bullshitted.

It's a shame, because I love this car in just about every other respect. My only other quibble is very low ground clearance in the front. It can be a problem at the bottom of steep driveways.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomi @ Jul 10 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]476641[/snapback]</div>

The service manual says to check for damaged parts, and replace as necessary. So they can fix your car, but they don't want to.

I still like my car, but handling is definitely not right. I am still looking for a good alignment shop to get another unbiased measurement.

I have been considering taking the dealer to small claims court to pay for any additional alignment(s) if the next check shows that the rear is still out of spec as I suspect that it still is.

 

It must be a Sacramento thing. I'm so ashamed that no one seems to be able to understand the concept of toe-in in degrees not in inches. :angry:

I have been having difficulty finding a good alignment shop. I have asked at a body shop and at a custom tire shop but no luck. The lead that I got from the body shop didn't pan out because when I got there the tech says "I've been working on cars for 27 years, and I've never heard of toe in anything but inches". The other shops are a long way from me which means I will have to take a lot of time off work to go.

Anyway, out of desperation, I took it to a Les Schawb Tire Store, talked to the tech and he assured me that he could specify the toe in degrees. But on leaving the store, I realized that he didn't; the readings are in decimal inches. <_< At least they didn't charge me.

As expected, the RR toe is still out of spec. The measurement is pretty close to the average of the GY measurement and the (non-altered) dealer measurement.

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Another disturbing development: The front cross-camber is now worse after the dealer installed the camber bolt to "fix" the LH front.

 

I realized that I can convert the decimal inches to decimal degrees using linear interpolation:

The range for rear toe in inches is: 0.01in to 0.14in (each wheel)

The range for rear toe in degrees is: 0.03° to 0.28° (each wheel)

So, the equation to convert from decimal inches to decimal degrees is:

Degrees = (Inches/ .13) * .25

My rear toe readings were:

0.08 in = 0.15° for the left rear

0.21 in = 0.40° for the right rear

If I knew the distance between the bolts on the rear spindle, I could now calculate the thickness of the shim I need to correct the right side.

I'm assuming that one shim that spans both of the forward most holes would work best. Shape? Thickness?

A question for Galaxee (and DH):

The alignment guy at the tire shop was concerned that shimming the spindle out could possibly interfere with the function of the ABS because it may change the relationship of the sensor and sensor ring. I haven't taken anything apart yet, so I don't know. Is his concern valid or totally off the mark?

 

totally off the mark. the sensor and sensor ring are integrated in the bearing unit, which is what is getting shimmed away from the axle.

the .15 is good. we can send you some shims for the .40, he's got a pattern already made out. should take 4 of em. send me a PM with your info and we'll drop them in the mail before we hit the road on our trip this weekend.

 

My left rear toe was 41º on one machine and 45º on another. It sounds like we're in the same ballpark.

I'm taking the car in to a different dealer, who will tell me whether I can get get warranty service for this. Unfortunately, my local tire guy has said he won't install any shims that don't come from his suppliers, who don't have any. I think it's a liability thing.

 

so the second alignment did confirm that reading, eh? unfortunately, unless your dealer has a guy who's done custom shims they'll probably give you the "non adjustable, blah blah blah" line. technically toyota's warranty doesn't cover the shim jobs that DH does at work either.

with the shims, you're gonna have to install them yourself. if you want to send your info, we can also send you some.

our only disclaimer, and this goes universally, is that doing this long distance we can't be exact. we can get you closer to the spec numbers to decrease tire wear, but don't come back at us because they're not smack in the middle of the range.

 

Well, went to the other dealer today. They inspected it and "Yup, it's out." Their solution is "replace the beam," which will be covered by warranty. I assume they mean the solid rear axle. They're going to order the part--no idea how long it will be. I've got my fingers crossed that this brings it into spec.

This is a big step up from the previous dealer, who essentially told me not to worry about, that uneven tire wear and 24,000 mile tire life was "normal."

Stay tuned...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomi @ Jul 17 2007, 12:47 PM) [snapback]480420[/snapback]</div>

Yes, they mean the solid rear axle. The hub and backing plate bolt directly onto the axle. The Service Writer at my dealer said they could get another one within 24 hours, but he lied about everything else, so I don't know if that was a lie as well.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

I'm going to try the shim and then take it to a good alignment shop and try to get the front adjusted as best as possible with a slight amount of toe in instead of the slight amount of toe out that I have now. Hopefully they can reduce the cross camber at the same time.

 

Sacramento is an alignment shop wasteland.

Before I go off on that rant, I want to thank Galaxee and her DH for their help. I have installed the shims on the RR axle and as near as I can tell (more below) it has fixed the problem with the rear toe in.

Crosswind stability is much improved, the rear wheels seem to follow the front ones now. Gliding is better; I'm working on a 55 mpg tank right now, previously 49 was about the best I could manage on my daily commute.

However, I still can't find a decent alignment shop. I tried to call a shop downtown that another PriusChat member recommended, only to find that they were out of business. One of the phone numbers for that shop was answered by a tire shop who told me they now had that number. I set up an appointment with them, since he told me that they could do alignments and he had the patience to listen to my sad story.

But, because I'm sometimes an idiot, I forgot to ask if they could give me the toe readings in degrees (or even decimal inches) until the car was already on the rack. I sense that because you are intelligent readers, you already have guessed the answer to that question.

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Data shows that the rear toe is now in spec, and looks pretty good within the tape measure precision that most Sacramento alignment techs use. They only charged me for checking the alignment since they didn't make any adjustments. They seemed to be intimidated by my car. Also, because they wanted the car to be in Neutral, I couldn't leave it all day or the HV battery would have been completely discharged.

The front camber results are almost the same as the last reading, although not quite as bad for cross camber. The result for the RF wheel is consistent within 0.1° for every alignment check except the ones done at the dealer. The last two alignment checks (after dealer adjusted camber) are consistent for the LF wheel within 0.2°. My sad conclusion is that the dealer should have left the LF alone and adjusted the RF wheel instead.

I still have a slight pull to the left on light braking (regen only). This might be a tire issue; I'm going to test by rotating the front to rear this weekend.

Since I only know of one alignment shop who can get their machine to print out decimal inches for toe in, I am thinking of taking it back to them to satisfy my curiosity about how close the rear shims are to the target. I'm considering loosening the bolts on the struts and trying to adjust the camber myself at home, then having it checked at the shop. They seem hesitant to adjust anything if it is in spec already, but I think I could improve the front cross camber. I'm also contemplating trying to toe the front in just a tad; how much of a turn on the tie rod = 0.01 inches?

Any advice on the do-it-yourself alignment? I realize that a Hunter machine would make this easier, but I can't afford the cost or space at home.

 

Happy to hear that your problems are mostly solved, dogfriend. Mine are too, I hope. The second Toyota dealer has replaced the rear axle beam (under warranty) and the printout now shows everything within specs. They re-aligned the front end too, at no charge. I'm curious as to why they had to do this, since the front was aligned by the first dealer less than a month ago, and I can't see how replacing a rear axle would do anything to the front alignment. But I don't know much.

Anyway... now that I have four new tires and my wheels are on straight, I can start enjoying my Prius again rather than stressing about it. Thanks to all for the sage advice and moral support.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomi @ Aug 3 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]490306[/snapback]</div>

The first dealer may have done the front alignment to compensate for the rear toe problem. Or, they just didn't do a very good job for some reason.

My understanding is that you should align the rear first (if possible) then align the front.

Glad they were able to fix your car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Aug 3 2007, 10:55 PM) [snapback]490323[/snapback]</div>

You mean that if they're unable to get all the wheels exactly "straight" in relation to the frame of the car, they at least try to get them all pointing in the same direction? That makes sense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tomi @ Aug 3 2007, 08:22 PM) [snapback]490339[/snapback]</div>

Yep, there's an explanation here:


[attachmentid=10353]


http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Aug 3 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]490029[/snapback]</div>

yeah, hunter only asks about $50k for a machine... plus the $50k lift to do it on

without knowing more about the camber bolt that they put in, can't say much about the camber, unfortunately. if it's like what he thinks it's a bolt with a smaller shank to it. then, you loosen both bolts at the bottom of the strut. the camber bolt should be installed on the top hole. barely loosen the bottom one, start to loosen the top one, and as soon as you can barely move it, move it in the direction you want to go and stop. don't go far. pull toward you goes positive, and toward the center of the vehicle is negative. you want the car jacked up for this.

wouldn't really advise tweaking toe diy... it's extremely sensitive. 1/4 turn can (not saying WILL, now don't go calculating like that, ok? ) give you up to 0.15 degrees of change.

 

OMG

I just went out and looked. They installed the bolts in backwards and upside down.

I mean that the heads of the bolts are facing toward the rear of the car

and

the bolt with 2 dots (90105-15016) is installed in the top position (1) , but the chart says its supposed to be installed in the bottom position (2).



[attachmentid=10354]

[attachmentid=10355]


What happens if I switch the bolts?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Aug 3 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]490362[/snapback]</div>

So about 1/8 of a turn or less....... B) . If I screw up, then it will be out of spec and they will adjust it at the tire shop.

Actually, I think I'm okay with the toe as is.


Any hazards in moving the bolts to the positions shown on the chart?

 

have to tell ya tomorrow. i'm the only one awake now.

btw, where did you go to have that bolt put in? d'oh toyota? :blink: