Honda To Challenge Prius With a Dedicated Hybrid Model

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hschuck @ Jun 29 2007, 07:08 PM) [snapback]470352[/snapback]</div>

GM Precept Concept Jan 2000 Cd=0.163 (59.5% better than the Prius)



They didn't produce it as a production vehicle. The Precept was GM's hybrid concept that came out of the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, a government funded research program to create a family car that got 80 mpg. GM scrapped it to build giant SUV's. The only good thing that came out of the program is that it scared Honda and Toyota into developing their own hybrids since they were not allowed to participate in the government program. But I'm quite sure you knew that already and were just being smug. By pointing out that the Precept wasn't produced does nothing to prove that the technology is not sound. We have known how to produce an aerodynamic vehicle for decades, we just choose not too. The ideal shape still hasn't changed. The Precept is still far from ideal, it is still very "3 box" shaped.

You also have this: 2005 Daihatsu UFE-III Cd=0.163


A 3-seater concept that gets 170 mpg

Or how about we go back to 1985 and the Ford Probe V Concept Cd= 0.137


An even better example of an aerodynamic vehicle and an ideal design for a single person commuting vehicle. Cd= 0.12
http://www.dhenterprises.com.au/images/racv98.jpg

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(morpheusx @ Jun 29 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]470341[/snapback]</div>

Same here, all depends on driving style. If I am feeling like watching the display I can feather the pedal in such a way as to maintain high MPG and keep the speed constant, takes some effort, and my right calf is a bit larger than my left now, but I get EPA quite often.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Jun 28 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]469645[/snapback]</div>

Just to add an often missed point:

Let's not forget that the Camry Hybrid has the same trunk volume as the Civic Hybrid. We don't have to compare the Prius to a compact when the Camry hybrid plays close to the Prius's EPA size.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Jun 29 2007, 12:18 PM) [snapback]470147[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely true.

I would even say that there are CVT's available today that simply outclass the best 6 speed manuals in terms of final ratio. It is quite a sight when doing 60 mph on a Civic hybrid 2 and the tach is steady on 1500-1800 rpm. After the break-in the tach reading is even lower. The last time I recall driving a 6 speed the RPM on the 6th at the same speed, the rpms were alot higher than that.

So, yes, lets update what we know about modern CVT's OK?

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Let's hammer home that point to Honda and others: it's not just the "hybrid" label, it's the whole set of design choices made for efficiency and reliability. The Toyota HSD is a marvellous device: highly efficient and reliable with no shift lag. I will never again buy a car that has any sort of conventional transmission, be it clutches, fluid drives, or mechanical CVTs; or a car without regenerative braking or an instantaneous MPG indicator, or with a belt-driven AC compressor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 1 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]471075[/snapback]</div>

Ditto.

I am beyond spoiled.

 

How things have changed!

Back in 2001 when I got the 01 Prius, the reason was simple. '87 Camry was at end of ultra-reliable life, stopping at gas station more often due to job change was aggravating, car was only used for commuting. So what was Toyotas best mileage car. "Prius"?? Never heard of it....but seats four, look at the MPG, (oops, someone got the city and highway MPG reversed.) Hybrid, just looks like marketing hype for a CVT transmission using surge battery. Should I worry about that?...Nah, Toyota's good at reliability and that thing is covered for 100,000 miles. Oh look, a distraction display, no use for that. Probably have to ferry my bike on the outside, bummer. Oh well, let's get it anyway, it's just another car with good MPG.

Fast forward to 2007. Time for new car (in addition to the '01). What are my choices?.....Red, White, Silver, Grey, Pearl,....

 

I'm glad Honda has changed course. From where I stand, Toyota and Honda did go in different directions, but not just aesthetically as the Honda guy in the article suggests.

When you drive a Prius, you know you are in something different. The power on/off switch and the hybrid system display lcd were unique to the Prius. With the previous Civic Hybrid, there was no hint that you were in a hybrid. I had hoped that Honda would fix this in the current Civic hybrid, but they apparently kept marching in the same direction- hide the hybrid technology inside and outside.

There's also other issues. As far as I can tell, you can't get a factory backup camera on the Civic but you can with the Prius. I hope Honda corrects that too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mpk @ Jul 2 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]471758[/snapback]</div>

Honda will never be Toyota and Toyota can never be Honda. Each company has an historical legacy that affirms who they are and how they do things. That fundamental "history of facts" is what provides the richness and value to customers, whichever platform they end up choosing to park in their driveway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mpk @ Jul 2 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]471758[/snapback]</div>

The Civic Hybrid does not exhibit the same rear blind-spots (and with the same severity) as the Gen 2 Prius. You'll never see a backup camera on a Civic unless it is "after market" sourced and connected to the Navi.

Whether for a gen 2 Prius or a typical SUV or minivan, a backup camera is a very useful option option to have.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

The Cd is only one variable in the equation to aerodynamic drag. The other important number is the cross-sectional area. The prius has a much smaller cross-sectional area than the Camry so the total aerodynamic drag is much less, while the cargo area is similar.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mpk @ Jul 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]471758[/snapback]</div>

I on the other hand like the Honda hybrid display and dislike the Prius. To me the LCD is complication for the sake of complication. The Honda system gives me more information that I would use in a simpler format. Take for example the hybrid assist bar graph. It not only tells you if the car is using assist or regen but also tells you how much. Don't even get me started on having the radio and climate controls hidden in the LCD menus.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Jul 2 2007, 09:14 PM) [snapback]471952[/snapback]</div>

It is amazing that a car this tall yields a very quiet ride because of what you mentioned.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 2 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]472012[/snapback]</div>

Only being able to do one thing at a time makes user information inherently simple. That's how the "assist" hybrid works. So it's easy to show.

Prius on the other hand... can generate, consume, and recharge/draw all at once. Showing a value coming from the small motor, a value coming from the large motor, and a value coming from or going to the battery-pack would exceed a useful level for the typical person. That's too much data simultaneously.

The very nature of the "full" hybrid confuses. Reaching the mainstream market means intentionally over simplifying. So that's what you get.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 2 2007, 11:17 PM) [snapback]472054[/snapback]</div>

The Prius with all it's arrows was entertaining for the first couple days of driving but after that I found it to be pretty useless. I drive with the screen in the consumption mode now. Not to mention that the screen is in the center of the car so you have to take you eyes of the road to look at it.

The Honda on the other hand has all the displays right in front of you. You can easily tell with a glance what the car is doing. It also has a TACH, something that all cars should have.

Engine Off Button: Is the engine one or off (Though in both the Prius and Civic you can feel it turn on and off)
IMA Graph: Is the motor assisting or in regen and how much
Batteru SOC: self-explanatory
Instant Fuel Economy bar graph: self-explanatory
Trip AVG Fuel Economy: self-explanatory

Let me give you an example of were knowing how much regen is important. I ski patrol and come down a steep mountain road quite frequently. With the Prius, at the top of the hill I use the brake pedal to slow the car with regen. This will fill the battery quite quickly. However, at some point, the regen turns off and the car seamlessly transitions to friction brakes though the screen still shows that the car is in regen mode. The car gives no indication of the change. The first time this happened I got to the bottom only to smell my smoking brakes. Now I try to guess when it is going to happen but lots of times switch over to engine braking too early and end up with a battery that shows full (all green bars so above 80%) but within a mile or so down a very flat road drops a bar. That tells me I could have used more regen and less engine braking.

With the Honda (which I have also driven on steep mountain roads) when the battery fully tops off, the bar graph goes from 5 bars down to 1 bar. This lets you know that it is now relying on the friction brakes and to shift into a low gear.

This is an example of getting more information from a simpler layout. One that I find easier to read when you glance away from the road quickly.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 3 2007, 12:43 AM) [snapback]472100[/snapback]</div>

The Prius switches OFF regen when the battery is full.

I use the Energy Monitor Screen when descending, I leave it in Consumption for normal driving. You have no way of telling when the battery is full because the battery bar graph only shows from 60% to 80% SOC. When you have all green bars the battery is only at 80% SOC.

A tach would be VERY helpful when I am descending said hill and the RPM keeps changing and the engine sounds like it is bouncing off a rev limiter even when in engine braking mode.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 2 2007, 08:50 PM) [snapback]472012[/snapback]</div>

I know what you mean.... well kind of...

What you are saying is that the choice of display interface does not have to reflect the complexities of the underlying topology of a hybrid platform.
If so, then I don't think we have to go back to the "hybrid kindergarten" to learn, yet again "ad nauseum" , about full-hybrid and assist-hybrids. :blink:

If I understand you correctly, then take the non-navi Camry hybrid for example:
It does NOT have an MFD, yet the diminutive LCD display on the dash seems to convey the critical hybrid information quite adequately. Is this what you mean?

On the other hand, this is a Prius forum. Anything different than what the Prius offers is likely to be regarded as "less". Such is human nature.


Cheers;


MSantos

 

I was thinking on the way in to work this morning regarding the Insight vs the HSD technologies.
Honda's thinking, well we have this gas motor with an electric motor strapped to it, should get good fuel economy, Yeah, but how do we get the power to the wheels, oh lets slap a 5 speed on it.

Toyotas thinking, Lets take a CVT, put an electric motor on one end, a gas motor on the other end, and an assist motor at the drive line.

Previous discussions in this thread were knocking the CVT technology, but when you drill down through the two species of Hybrids, you can clearly see the Toyota put everything in their basket at once by designing a true to form new technology instead of slapping an electric motor in the middle and calling it a hybrid.

Simplicity vs Technology. The same can be said about the displays. Honda kept it simple since their system is simple, while Toyota has a complex system and shows it off with their display.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jul 3 2007, 07:32 AM) [snapback]472172[/snapback]</div>

You are correct, though I have not experience with the Camry Hybrid.

I guess I should expect resistance from the Prius faithful. I say faithful because for some the Prius has a religious like attraction! Lots of them are "techies" and LOVE the MFD. To me it just takes something that was simple and worked well and makes it more complicated. Give me back 3 dials for climate control any day.

 

i think honda should realize that a car much smaller than the civic would be a mistake. the insight does have a HUGE need and market since 78% of people commute alone to work so who needs a bigger vehicle?? not many. but what happens when you go home?

need a car that gets the mileage and the room to haul a family. that is why i probably wont consider the new honda offering unless it is very very exceptional. i see no reason to make a lateral move away from Toyota especially since they have proven themselves.