An electric SUV? That's shocking, Phoenix Motorcars SUV

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Jun 13 2007, 09:28 AM) [snapback]460879[/snapback]</div>

I'm simply pointing out the Xebra's short comings. There have been several rather uppity posts about the Xebra and I'm a little sick of the high horse. Yes the Xebra is an EV. Yes, in just about every case it has fewer emissions than most ICE driven vehicles. It can work for some people as a useful vehicle. However, it has several very severe limitations that rule it out as a vehicle for many, many people.

We don't need to walk. We need the desire to change. The RAV4EV et al are vastly superior to the ZAP offerings. It's not a question of walking or running. It's a question of wanting to change the way we do things. It's great that the Xebra works for you and that you're saving scads of cash that way. But the xebra and vehicles like it are niche and will always be niche unless something radical happens.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

Agreed. As excited as I am about the idea of electric cars, if someone gave me a Xebra for free, I'd just return it as I'd not be able to do anything with it other than go to the grocery store on Sunday. My commute is about 20 miles one way over hilly freeways. If I tried to drive only on 35 mph roads or less, it would be about 40 miles. It would be great for me if I worked downtown, but if I did that, I'd just take the bus.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

You may think that is only a niche market but by simple statistics it would work for the average American that drives 28 miles per day. I agree that we need a desire to change and part of that is realizing that every vehicle we have doesn't need to be able to do every possible task. A small, 2-seat or even 1-seat commuter car would work for a huge percentage of the population if they where open to the possibility. A 45 to 40 mile range is perfectly adequate for lots of people. It is the perception of limitation that is the problem.

Take the Volt as and example. GM is advertising a 650 mile range between the electric and gasoline modes. Why do you need to go 650 miles on one tank of fuel. Why not take that space to add more batteries for more EV range or just make the vehicle smaller and lighter. If the engine really gets 50 MPG then they could have a 5 gallon fuel tank and still have the same driving range and a normal car.

If they are marketing it as a commuter car with a 40 mile EV range why then do you need a 610 mile gasoline range? So people don't perceive that they are being limited, it will go twice and far as their current vehicle on a tank of fuel. I seems that some people aren't smart enough to figure out that 300 mile on 5 gallons is twice and good as 300 miles on 10 gallons. All they know is that their car goes X miles per tank.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jun 14 2007, 07:54 PM) [snapback]462074[/snapback]</div>

As limiting as the range is, I think the 35 mph limit is really what kills the Xebra. People would have to come up with convoluted routes to stay off of main roads and that would eat into the range. For that matter I can only imagine how slow it would be if I tried to go up any of the hills near my house.

If you mainly run errands right around your house over flat terrain it's great but it has pretty severe limitations.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

Guilty as charged. It's fun to be able to take the moral high ground.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

The Xebra has zero emissions. And even if you get your electricity from the oldest coal-fired plant in the country, it has far fewer emissions overall that the cleanest gas car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

The so-called "need" for cars is an entirely artificial result of lifestyle choices that place people far from work and shopping. Enjoy the smell of gasoline while you can, because the gasoline age is coming to an end. The question for each individual is whether to get off the gasoline ship now, even though the electric lifeboat is less comfortable, or to stay on the ship until it sinks and go down with it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461869[/snapback]</div>

The Rav4EV is indeed vastly superior to the Xebra. The Xebra is a POS by comparison. But a Rav4EV will cost you around $60,000, used, ten years old, today. An xBox from AC Propulsion, although it is the ugliest thing on wheels, is also vastly superior to the Xebra, but it's only available in CA. And it'll cost you around $75,000. The Xebra, at $10K to $17 K is available today. It is a limited-use vehicle: 40 mph top speed and 17 to 45 mile range (depending on installed battery capacity). Thus for me it is only practical about 27 days a month. The other three I have to use my Prius.

As you point out so correctly: it's a question of changing the way we do things. And part of that is whether you choose to live 40 miles of freeway driving from work, or 10 miles of surface streets from work, or a bicycle ride from work.

 

I think most folks realize where my efforts go: Toward getting full-featured EVs on the road. I'm not a big proponent of low-speed EVs, but I certainly do see their utility in many, many situations. WE don't yet have full-featured EVs on the road yet - what we have available today is what we have. And I agree that there is a huge section of the population that couldn't make much use out of a Xebra. I'm one of them. HOWEVER, please don't get blinded just by *your* needs. Because the fact is, a car like this could absolutely satisfy the needs of a similarly huges section of the population. As an example - I fulfil most of my transportation needs with a bicycle! *gasp*. And the only time I can go better than 30mph is when I'm going down hill. My range is a bit better than the Xebras, but I also end up at my destination a bit sweatier.

No, it is not a "real car" by most definitions. And the secret is - many, many people use real cars for the daily tasks where a real car IS NOT needed! If the Xebra doesn't work for one situation, that does not mean it should be discarded as not being useful (and that is what the term "niche" has become, it seems). Motorcycles are niche vehicles, and yet many people love them despite all their limitations. Hell, SUVs used to be niche vehicles. Remember that? I shudder to think how many millions of car drivers could be using bicycles for most of their trips. And how many millions more could be using something like the Xebra?

Please realize that I am in no way saying that the Xebra is the end game, or is a vehicle that fits everybody's needs. I just want to add a bit of perspective. And of course I'm just ignoring the fact that Daniel is slowly working his way up to being even more annoying about this stuff than I am! Back off, buddy!

*** added: Wow. Good answer, Daniel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 15 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]462333[/snapback]</div>

I would love to be able to work 10 miles from home. I'd never drive into work again if that were the case. I even bought a house, in part, because it's on two bus lines to downtown Seattle.

Unfortunately, the trend with high tech work these days is to move it where the land is cheap. Eventually that will get fixed, but I hope to have a real electric commuting vehicle before that happens.

The reason why people use real cars for the daily tasks where it's not needed is because that's what we own. Few people can afford $15k for a vehicle that would get used solely for a few short trips every week. That's why I think this is a wrong focus. Get an EV that people can use for their commutes and they'll also use it for driving to the grocery store. Until that happens, this will remain a niche within a niche.

 

Groan... I'm quite aware that oil is a limited resource. I'm a big proponent of EVs. You should know that by now. My role here is to bring some balance. EV group think is not good for the cause. I agree with Zzyzx (if that is his/her real name, :lol: ). I live 5 miles from work but the Xebra couldn't get me there. I'd toy with the idea of biking except I'd have to cross 3 4-lane bridges with no shoulder and very heavy rush hour traffic. There's no way in hell I'm doing that. The Xebra would be putting along at 20 mph UNDER the speed limit. I'm not playing that game either. As I've said before, kudos to you for taking that path. It works for you... that's great. BTW, what are the safety ratings of the Xebra and how is its cold weather performance? Could you have run the vehicle in Fargo in winter, for example.

It really comes down to collective action. Until we as a society decide that we really need to kick the petrol habit you're on that ship too. Actually, you may be on a life raft but the painter's still lashed to the ship. We have the capability to make it happen now. It will happen, the question is how hard are we going to make it on ourselves?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 15 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]462347[/snapback]</div>

I see it as my mission in life to make you look like a moderate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zzyzx @ Jun 15 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]462366[/snapback]</div>

I would not have bought the Xebra if it could not have become my primary car. I have chosen to live in Spokane, a relatively small city (though larger than I'd prefer) and this means that all my in-town transportation can be done at 35 mph.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 15 2007, 02:33 PM) [snapback]462591[/snapback]</div>

The dealer I bought my Xebra from, Sean (whose last name escapes me) at gpev.us, is a full-time sheriff. (GPEV is a new business for him.) He posted a comment on safety, which I give here in full. I'm confident he will not object. Please remember that, as he says in the beginning, he's been a cop for twenty years, and has seen lots of accidents.

But before I give his comment, I'll answer your question about winter: I imagine the Xebra would be similar to what cars were before ABS and TC and VSC. I will admit (at the risk of appearing more reasonable than I'd like ) that when there is ice on the roads next winter I'll drive my Prius. But in Spokane that's not many days a year. And when I lived in rural ND I never drove at all when the roads were icy, and when I lived in Fargo I hated driving on icy roads. It's one of the reasons I left my otherwise-beloved North Dakota.

Sean's comment on vehicle safety: (Note: The PK is the pickup truck version of the Xebra, and the SD is the sedan version of the Xebra.)

A 35-mph vehicle is safer than a 75-mph vehicle simply because it won't let you go as fast. Of course, my Prius would be safer than my Xebra if I drove it at the same speed. But humans being humans, it seems the only way to keep yourself at a safe speed is to drive a car that won't go at an unsafe speed.

And tripp: I'm very glad you are supporting EVs, and only knocking my wonderful, fun little Xebra. I really liked my Prius when it was new. But it was never as much fun to drive as Yevette is. And you know all those threads about people being angry at the Prius? In three weeks driving Yevette, I've had two disparaging comments, as against many many positive ones every time I go out. People shout, "I love your car!" "Cool car." "Cute car." Nearly everyone loves it. And to my surprise, kids love it. They whistle and whoop and shout flattering things.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 15 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]462701[/snapback]</div>

So when somebody in a passat rear ends you at 20 mph at a red light what happens? What happens in the Xebra when you hit something solid at 35 mph? I hope it does better than the Reva. European tests on it showed there was very little likelihood of surviving a 40 mph crash. What would that civic head-on have done to a Xebra?

Seans's statements don't say anything about the safety of the Xebra, just that it's incapable of moving at hwy speeds. All of his statements are about operator error (and a strawman argument with the Boxter). The crash tests on the Reva show that 40mph is enough to do serious damage. (link)

So the question remains, what sort of safety standards does the Xebra conform to? Any?

I'm glad people like your Xebra. However, how many of those people are dumping their ICE vehicles to buy one? My primary criticism of these mini EVs is that they're not a solution (though they can play a part) to our transportation situation unless something profoundly bad happens. You have two vehicles for yourself. Are you going to sell the Prius and rent a car 3 times a month? If you are, great, but most people simply aren't going to do that. They're going to go with something more versatile because they don't want to deal with it (yes, most people are pretty lazy and like convenience).

I agree with Sean's comments about the NEVs. The regulations should be scrutinized to maximize the utility of these vehicles while removing encumbering statutes that don't really make much sense. For me, the current NEV regulations would mean that I couldn't leave my neighborhood (literally, the major street that our neighborhood is connected to has a 45 mph speed limit).

I was not getting at road conditions, but more temperature and battery performance. I'm curious how the batteries in the Xebra would perform in subzero conditions. Sorry for not being more clear.

I'm not. I'm providing a counter-point to the "Xebra should be everybody's primary vehicle, praise me for being ever so good" argument. I agree that there are many, many situations that mini EVs are good for. If there weren't many they wouldn't exist at all. Clearly they work for some people and could work for many, many more. The fact remains, however, that they have severe limitations that require one to a.) rent a larger vehicle when going somewhere outside the range or where speed limitations are an issue or b.) have a second car. Right now, the opportunity costs associated with the Xebra mean that people are willing to buy the Corolla or Civic and pay the extra costs associated with ICE. That may well change. My hope is that more versatile EVs become the mainstream sooner rather than later.

The Prius is a good example of the kind of designs we need. It has excellent range, is practical, has reasonable performance, is very reliable, and has solid safety marks. It costs less than $10K more than the Xebra (how much would a Xebra cost if it had a 4th wheel?). We need something similar for pure EVs, when compared to today's cars. It certainly doesn't need to be perfect (since nothing out there is), but it needs to be versatile enough to fill a couple of roles and be cheap enough that middle class folks will take a look at it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 16 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]463079[/snapback]</div>

The Xebra is licensed as a motorcycle. With its durable fiberglass shell and seat belts it's the safest motorcycle on the road. Sean saw a Xebra SD fall off the delivery truck and land on its top, and the top held up the weight of the car without crushing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 16 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]463079[/snapback]</div>

I'm keeping my Prius as my second car, for when I need to go more than 45 miles (vacations and occasional trips to Coeur d'Alene.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 16 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]463079[/snapback]</div>

I've never said that the Xebra should be everyone's primary vehicle. I live in a small seniors community. Most of the houses here have two SUVs in the garage and a motor home in the RV lot. None of those families needs two SUVs.

I have said from the first that most one-car families could not make do with a Xebra. But many two-car families only need one long-range vehicle.

And I repeat: Enjoy the smell of gasoline while you can, because whether you think EVs are practical or not, it won't be long until your choices will be a bicycle, shoes, or an EV. The Xebra is a pretty basic car, totally alien to what Americans think they have a god-given right to. But right now it's just about the only game in town.

And I am not asking for praise for "being good." I'm gloating because I've got a fun, water-powered car. Just as many Prius drivers gloat over the poor SUV drivers because the Prius uses only 1/4 as much gas, I'm gloating over the Prius drivers because my Xebra uses no gas at all.

I'm ten times as smug about my Xebra as I ever was about my Prius. I've wanted a pure EV ever since I experienced electric mode in the Prius. Now I've got one, and I'm happy, and I'm smug!

As for winter, I cannot honestly answer that until winter comes, I expect a reduction in range.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 16 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]463220[/snapback]</div>

That's not saying very much. What has Sean said about some of the motorcycle accidents he's seen?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 16 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]463220[/snapback]</div>

We're in complete agreement here. (yah! )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 16 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]463220[/snapback]</div>

I agree. However, the second vehicle needs to be able to drive on roads with a higher speed limit. The Xebra has limitations that would make it impractical in many parts of town. Not all, for sure. But many. Spokane sounds pretty friendly to your situation. As I've said before, that's great. You're fortunate that you can spend well over $40K on two vehicles for yourself. You can also choose to live in an area where you can extract maximum advantage of your vehicles. Most people aren't in a situation like that. Some are for sure. You neighbors for certain. Out of curiosity, how receptive have they been? Have they asked much about it? Tried to nick it for a joy ride?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 16 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]463220[/snapback]</div>

You had better too. As long as we continue to waste oil on ICEs (and inefficient ones, even by ICE standards) you'll suffer along with everyone else. However, I doubt that it'll come to that. It's not like EVs are some sort of futuristic vehicle that requires as of yet unproven or undeveloped technology. As Darell is found of saying, the future was here 15 years ago. It's really an economic thing. The auto mfgs don't wanna give up their ICE cash cow.

I think EVs can be very practical. The RAV4 and EV1 come to mind (though less so for the EV1). Are they available? No. Could they be in a pretty short period of time? Yes. Will others follow. You bet. I'd buy something like that in a heartbeat. It's big enough for me to carry hockey gear in (I car pool with two other people and we can fit all of our gear in the Prius), has a long enough range that I can easily do the day to day stuff and still get out to the airport to pick up people, and can manage speeds that I'm willing to drive at. So yeah, EVs can be practical and attractive to a very wide range of the population. What you have is not. Could that change? Yeah, it could. But it's not likely to. As I've said, it's great that it works for you and that you're not "enduring" it, but enjoying it. More power to ya ( ).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 17 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]463465[/snapback]</div>

I have not spoken to him about that. However, he has said often: "Speed kills!"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 17 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]463465[/snapback]</div>

They've been very positive. Several have stopped me to ask about it, and they think it's great. No one has asked me for a ride. People in this development have a habit of not intruding on each others' space.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 17 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]463465[/snapback]</div>

Then essentially we are in agreement. You agree that EVs are the way to go, and I admit that the Xebra is not for everyone. (But if it's not for everyone, it's because of the hole we Americans have dug ourselves into, where we think we "need" gasoline cars. Just as so many people think they "need" an SUV because maybe one day they'll have to pull a trailer.)

We Prius drivers are so smug because we burn half as much gas. Well, I'm twice as smug because 27 days out of 30 I don't burn any gas at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 17 2007, 06:57 PM) [snapback]463671[/snapback]</div>

That's cool. They probably love it because it's so quiet. I can imagine that they'd bloody well hate you if you had a Dodge 3500 Cummins Diesel. Frankly, I can't picture you in one of those. :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 17 2007, 06:57 PM) [snapback]463671[/snapback]</div>

Agreed. The trailering thing cracks me up. That's the perfect example of when to rent a vehicle that can tow and save yourself scads of cash by buying a vehicle that fits most of your driving scenarios.

Whew! That was a lot of work. Who wants a beer?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 11 2007, 03:32 PM) [snapback]459668[/snapback]</div>

I agree.. at this point the cars are like electronics technology. What if we waited for the Pentium 4 before we made personal computers mainstream?

When you start out its expensive, it sucks, and only nerds have it... after a while everyones got it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ Jun 18 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]464427[/snapback]</div>

That would be excellent indeed. The real question is if companies like Tesla can buck the conventional wisdom that you need massive capital and gov't support to start a successful auto company. I really hope that they can pull it off because it will revolutionize the auto industry.

BTW, are you guys getting any relief from the drought down in FL?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 17 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]463733[/snapback]</div>

I need to chime back in here on this one! My college-age neighbor hated our EV1. Couldn't wait for it to head to the crusher. Why? Well, because it had a reverse beeper to warn the people behind you that a quiet car was coming. And her bedroom window was pointed at our driveway. Every day my wife backed it out of the garage, our silent car would wake the neighbor. I still laugh about that one - especially when the inevitable "quite cars are dangerous" threads start up every so often. (I actually managed to get that beeper disabled a few months before the car was crushed).

Most definitely I do!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ Jun 18 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]464427[/snapback]</div>

Excellent. I just made this same argument in Daniel's new "ant" thread. With no early adopters, we have have nothing. If we all wait for the product to be perfect (range, speed, quality, whatever...) we'll never see the producdt we want. The early adopters help everybody - and it is amazing how often they are ridiculed for "wasting their money" or whatnot.

OK... so about that beer thing...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 18 2007, 09:33 PM) [snapback]464465[/snapback]</div>

Done! See you at my house. I've got boysenberry meade and a nice IPA on tap.

That's too funny about the EV1 beeping. It makes sense, but no one's for safety if it's inconvenient.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 18 2007, 10:50 PM) [snapback]464441[/snapback]</div>

Are you kidding? Its rained for like 3 days straight...

Were usually pretty dry the first half of summer then the afternoon showers and hurricanes come and catch us up.

 

Nope. Just curious. You guys were in a massive drought, last time I checked.