Dumped the 07 Prius after 5 weeks

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CheapChic @ Apr 7 2007, 09:03 AM) [snapback]419353[/snapback]</div>

What car did you drive before getting your prius?

The reason i ask and it's somewhat unrelated....

I currently drive a 91 explorer that has some play in the steering. Over the weekend i was taking a trip with my cousin in his 01 neon. Needless to say i was not use to the way the car handled at all and after awhile my cousin started to look pale white <_< So he took over the driving

I think it all depends on what you use to drive....

 

Personally I think it's funny to see a European in here talking about how Toyotas are overrated. I bought a Swiss car once, but I could never get comfortable in the front seat what with the corkscrew, nail clippers, phillipshead screwdriver, toothpick, and tweezers all crowded up in there.

Seriously though, I agree with whoever said perspective buyers should seek out positive and negative information. I did a lot of reading here, research at consumer reports and other sources. I've only had my Prius two weeks and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on it. But I can clearly see that the overwhelming majority of Prius owners here do not feel they are at any risk due to wind when driving the Prius on the highway, and there's just no reason that perspective buyers should take that seriously based on the 2 out of 1000 people who complain about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 12 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]460361[/snapback]</div>

How is hybrid a dead end technology? Are you even aware of the improvements made from THS -> HSD? How about information on the next gen Prius?

Regarding the comment about the unnecessary weight..... let me reverse the point. In a traditional car, carrying extra gasoline (big gas tank), over sized / weight engine and a separate transmission is also dead weight. You don't realize it because you never questioned it and accepted without questioning -- because all the car pre-existed are like that. For Prius, a small gas tank offset the battery weight. Two electric motors ARE part of the transaxle (transmission) and they replace starter and alternator.

HSD is all about synergy between electric and mechanical power. The use of Atkinson cycle ICE and the electric motors is not innovative? Come on, it seems you have a lot of influences from anti-hybrid friends or the internet articles. International Engine of the Year Awards (04/05/06) and other awards weight way more than your misinformed opinion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear @ Jun 12 2007, 11:51 PM) [snapback]460623[/snapback]</div>

You didn't have a problem with this in your Prius? Its the same system.

 

The prius is a pretty light car and when going at high speeds, is very aerodynamically designed for going forward, but side sheer forces seems to take a bigger toll against this light car. The BT Plate definitely helps, but the Camry too is a nice car and gets good mileage for the extra weight it carries.... Too bad their Camry hybrid is designed for power instead of mileage, otherwise it could be a sweet compromise.

In light of how the BT plate improves stability, I'm still wondering if there is not a little design imperfection in the prius.

Oh well, the decision is done... the Camry is a nice car too... just not as "cool" for us techy guys, or maybe a better word is "facinating", or interesting, or something to marvel at!

 

When we got our Prius, I took it out "for a spin"... we have a section of road near us that I call "the Ridge"... it's a climb up and over a narrow mountain spur, with multiple S-curves, two-lane road, not well-banked.
The posted suggested (yellow sign) speed for most of it is 35 mph.
I have driven the Ridge in our Buick, doing 50 mph (I was following a state patrol vehicle--wanted to see if the Grand Lady (Buick) could keep up. She could.)
I have driven the Ridge in my Chevy Malibu, and wasn't very comfortable doing 50... kept it about 45 mph.
I took the Prius over the Ridge. At one point, I glanced down, and I was doing 60 mph.
I think that it handles better than bigger, heavier vehicles that I have driven (full-sized vans, pickup trucks, huge land boats like the Olds 98 diesel, even a Chrysler Satellite Sebring Plus-- along with the occasional VW dasher, and Ford something-or-other), and it corners like a dream.
I believe that it handles better due to the rack-n-pinion steering.

HOWEVER... if you have no experience with rack & pinion, it does take a little getting used to. It is very, very responsive. Very tight. You feel the road, and your movements are felt by the car.

So, it all boils down to personal preference and experience. YMMV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 13 2007, 06:23 PM) [snapback]460911[/snapback]</div>

Toyota's bet was to use its deep pocket to create de-facto standard for next-gen cars. Never mind Prius line is unprofitable. It is used as a teaser to pull demand on Lexus and project image of a Green auto company.

It is dead end because this technology is not not the imediatly applicable to entire spectrum of cars Toyota produces. If they will do it - they go bust in no time.

BMW develop and implement technology which is applied over all product range. Mini and 1 serie diesels already more economical and as clean as Prius, X3, X5 supercaps-based hybrid system squeesed in a standard automatic gearbox form factor are coming within months, 3-5-7 models will follow. ALL range of BMW cars will be green before Toyota will ramp hybrids to 5% of cars they produce and pollute the globe by millions of used oversized batteries.

In terms of emissions per car of total fleet on the roads (globally) Toyota still ahead of VW and not far away behind BMW which on average produce much more powerful cars.

British BP is the top polluter of the world (90 points) ahead of US Dupont - no wonder they spend a lot of marketing dollars to project themselves as the greenest oil co on Planet Earth.

Toyota's DNA is in a sewing machine, not an aircraft engine and it feels.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Jun 13 2007, 04:31 PM) [snapback]461138[/snapback]</div>

I changed the oil in mine last weekend, and while under there I glanced around. A lot of thought and engineering did go into the car itself and not just the drive train. In front of each tire is a small air dam to deflect air around the wheel. The floor pans have bumps to help smooth the air flow. It's design is ahead of most all cars out there, with some tweaking, they can make it more performance oriented, but given it isnt a powerful sports car, why bother. For the majority of us who own one, we are quite comfortable with its handling, for those who seem to think it needs to be beefed up, well, you bought the wrong car then. Go drive a Vega, or 80 or 90 something Nissan, Honda, or Toyota and see how well they compare to the Prius. You will find that the Prius is pretty good compared to them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

Do you have a source for this?

Toyota does not market items that are unprofitable. Thats why you see no AMG or M division with Lexus, why you've seen no V12 luxury sedan for a long time, its contradictory to the Japanese business model to design and market items that are not profitable or only appeal to niches.

Toyota absolutely would not have designed the hybrid drivetrain or the Prius if it were not profitable, so I ask you to back that statement up with a source.

 

When you consider they vitually "don't" have to advertize, thats even more profit than most other cars!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

It would be an unusual shareholder that would allow, or even encourage, the company they invest in to produce and market a product that lost money, and a rather spurious notion that they could somehow use the same techniques as in a supermarket to draw customers in with loss-leaders. No way, in the real world, would many potential Prius buyers switch to a Lexus - people don't think that way and finances don't work that way. You go to a dealer to look at a car in your price range because you have an interest and the car fits broadly within your needs and budget. Swapping off to something far more expensive with a whole different feature set (and often sold at a different dealership since not all Toyota dealers actually sell Lexus models too) is not going to be common enough to warrant the investment in Prius production.

Nonsense argument.

It's curious to see it being suggested that the technology is a dead end because it can't be applied as-is to all vehicles in the range now. Well, duh! Surely that's the whole point of technological development. You take an idea, work on it to make it functional, then develop it so it works better, then develop it some more. If your reasoning was applied to aircraft in the days of the Wright brothers, we'd still be traveling the world by ship because aircraft would never have been considered practical enough to carry more than just the pilot.

Nonsense argument.

That any other car maker develops and implements technologies across their entire range when Toyota doesn't is both irrelevant and largely untrue. They don't. Car makers build cars to sell in each of the market segments they think they can economically market to. That means that today, each will develop and implement the best technologies in their expensive products, and that over time, those technologies will trickle down to the cheaper ones. That's how we got disc brakes for example. They started out on only the top end sports and performance cars, then after a time began to appear on the front only of family cars, now on all 4 wheels of many perfectly ordinary cars. Disc brakes were hardly 'dead end' technology at the outset though were they? The same is true of vehicle stability and traction control, fuel injection systems, air bags, head rests, rear-wash/wipe systems, ABS.... a whole host of safety, comfort, performance and convenience features we now take pretty much for granted on every car. None of these things were common at the outset, all needed to be developed and none were dead end technologies.

Nonsense argument.

Interesting to see the contradiction in the statement "Toyota will ramp hybrids to 5% of cars they produce and pollute the globe by millions of used oversized batteries" by the way. If Toyota can't market enough hybrids to establish the technology as viable and mass-market, it seems unreasonable to claim that with their small volume sales, there could then possibly be enough batteries to pollute the world.

Nonsense argument.

As to Toyota's DNA - well your DNA may be from a chimp, but that doesn't mean you're limited to eating just bananas and climbing trees.

Nonsense argument.

 

Im sorry to hear your issues.

My 2007 package 2 is driving fine on the freeway here in michigan, and fantastically in the city.

no complaints here.

 

ZA, we wont her from her because there is no source...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 14 2007, 08:47 PM) [snapback]462001[/snapback]</div>

Isn't Lexus creating a "AMG/M" division... the F series? And aren't they producing a V10 or V12 in their upcoming "F" series supercar.

Lexus/Toyota seem to be indulging in some of the excesses that have taken down other auto manufacturers.

 

Yes, but it has taken them 20 years to do it including a move to predominately American management and continued browbeating of the parent company by that management to get it done.

As for the V10 or V12, it wouldn't be a V10 because they are inherantly imbalanced. We'll wait and see, I doubt it. Think about the LS600hL, Lexus execs and designers have been working on Toyota to let them build an S600 competitor for about 15 years. Finally they relented, but only if it showcased their PROFITABLE Hybrid Synergy Drive.

Toyota is EXTREMELY conservative.

These things are not "excesses", you have to have them in order to compete in today's marketplace. The business idea Toyota has never been able to get their heads around is the idea of a loss leader. The AMG and M divisions of Benz and BMW don't make them money, niether does the S600 or the 760Li. These things simply set a bar within their lineup which gives buyers something to aspire to. Lexus keeps lowering their average age of owner, when a 40 year old has "been there" with the LS, what do they do? They trade it in on an S550 and keep climbing from there.

If they want to be taken seriously, they NEED these figurehead models.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 15 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]462257[/snapback]</div>

Did they NEED to upsize the xB, with a bigger engine and lower mileage?

The excesses are happening across the board with Toyota... it's not just Lexus that's lowering the bar.

 

To you guys, economy sells and performance doesn't matter. You have to understand that to the rest of the buying public performance DOES matter. Toyota designs what sells cars. Be happy they have options for everyone.

These things are changed based upon the vehicle's competition and what focus groups have told them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 15 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]462271[/snapback]</div>

That's a very black and white statement, which I don't think reflects reality.

I'd say the LARGEST factor for the majority of buyers is price. Performance and fuel economy come next, and the pendulum is swinging rapidly towards fuel economy as the #2 concern, with gas prices rising.

 

Well then Toyota better fire their market research team and hire you...

Price is important to buyers, but not as important as quality, reliability, and performance. If price were the most important you'd see better sales performance from GM and Ford and you wouldn't have so many Toyota and Hondas topping the sales charts when there are much cheaper alternatives. People want economy, but not at significant expense of performance.

And for the record, I used to own a consulting & marketing business specializing in the auto industry. I know what I'm talking about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 15 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]462286[/snapback]</div>

I think the one thing we can be sure of it that like all the manufacturers, Toyota has a pretty fair idea about what sells cars. The fact we see a continuing trend to make models larger and larger, with consequent and almost inevitable loss of fuel efficiency, is a sign that that is what the buying public want.

It seems self-evident to me that if the original xB was selling that well, for example, Toyota would have left it much alone aside from a few design tweaks and color and option changes. It would have been cheaper that way if nothing else.

I certainly don't think fuel economy is as much on the minds of the majority of the US buying public either, else how on earth would the dealerships find it economically viable to continue the large stock levels of gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs, which are largely still selling pretty well. Heaven only knows what level fuel cost will have to rise to to get the public thoroughly involved in seeking efficiency gains and fuel efficient vehicles to buy, but thanks to the careful manipulation of pump prices by the oil companies so far, the public at large is not as sensitized to fuel prices as one would expect from the absolute cost alone. That can be seen from the buoyant sales of gasoline at present, which is up on this time last year.

Car manufacturers, including Toyota, are responding to market pressures and the competition.