Prius vs TDI

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vdubstress @ May 25 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]449661[/snapback]</div>

The fact you know what deep staging is makes you cool in my book. Ohh and liking Loreena McKennitt helps. lol

Are you also factoring in additional energy inputs for refining of diesel?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 25 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]449668[/snapback]</div>

Bugger, no I didn't :blink: I was only thinking about B100! I tend to forget that most of the country cannot use that as fuel for 3-6 months of the year!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 25 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]449631[/snapback]</div>

Ken I think you misunderstood the numbers. Those numbers are compared to a Jetta on diesel, not the Prius...

Like I said, no doubt the prius is better at the tailpipe. Although gasoline PM tends to be so small in size it has been suggested (I'm very careful with my words!) that it is more dangerous to your health than diesel PM

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vdubstress @ May 25 2007, 04:02 AM) [snapback]449671[/snapback]</div>

You can use B100 all year. B100 is not straight vegetable oil, they are very different things. B100 is a refined product.

Diesel refining requires less energy than gasoline because diesel is a larger molecule and requires last catalytic cracking than gasoline.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ May 25 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]449735[/snapback]</div>

EEEHHH wrong, B100 gels below 40*, which is why it is blended to B20 or so in the upper states. It would require a lot of additives to get the gel point down to the level of #1 diesel, which is why you dont see a lot of B100 stations up north.

What isnt factored in is when they refine crude, the diesel and gasoline all come out at the same time, so you have to consider that to make a gallon of gasoline, you already made a gallon of diesel(or whatever the ratio is per barrel). The first step to any refining process is to heat the crude up to the evaporating point of the highest evaporative temp of the product, meaning, the first liquid product to turn from gas to liquid, which is in most cases heating oil/diesel/kerosene, the first part to evaporate is the lighter product, acetone, benzine, etc, then gasoline products. Basically gasoline and diesel use the same amount of energy to create, its the refining portion that takes more energy to make. Once crude is seperated into its individual components, then the real refining takes place. For diesel, that pretty much means removing the sulphur from it, then adding in the lubricants needed to protect injectors and fuel systems. It has been a while, but the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago has a pretty good display on oil refining.

You are correct, gasoline engines emit finer particles than diesel which then tend to float up into the atmosphere, where the soot and PM from diesels tend to fall to the ground. Ever been behind a car that the driver floored it? Stinks pretty bad! That is a ton of unburned hydrocarbons that you cant see, at least with a diesel you can see the unburned fuel, when the diesel is getting its full burn all you see out the tailpipe is heat, in fact when the diesel is working hard and using fuel at the perfecct rate, there is no smell to the exhaust, just heat. When I work my tractor hard mowing, I can feel the heat from the exhaust, but cant see or feel it. When I had my garden tractor with the 20 HP gas engine, not only did it suck the fuel, it stank from the exhaust.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

Wow, that's a reassuring thought if I happen to purchase a tdi that may experience problems with the unit injectors.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

I've seen a couple of them around Winnipeg. The light turns green and this giant cloud of BLACK smoke gushes out, just like an old 2-cycle Detroit Diesel motor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

I should ask a local taxi operator, Duffy's Taxi. At last count they have 48 Prius cars of 2004-2007 all over Winnipeg, in temps of -40 in winter to +95 F in summer, with no reported battery failures over +400,000 km. The cars are usually totalled in crashes before a major component wears out, just like the Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptors they use.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

I have co-workers with Golf tdi and Jetta Wagon tdi, and completely agree the VW appears to have much better interior ergonomics, better ride quality, better handling. I would expect as much from a German company, even if the car is assembled in Brazil or Mexico.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

The Union of Concerned Scientists would beg to differ

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_...el-dilemma.html

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/t...-to-reform.html

As far as the stench of diesels, most diesel tdi cars and diesel pickups (Ford PowerStroke, Dodge Cummins, Chevy DuraMax) don't appear to give off noticeable stench in summer after they are warmed up. I challenge you to follow one in Winnipeg at -40 when they never warm up: it's enough to make me want to pull over and puke my guts out

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

There is conflicting reporting on this issue. One should naturally discount any promises from an industrial promotion website, such as the biodiesel organization.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/big_r.../biodiesel.html

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/biodsl.htm

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

The CNW "study" is nothing more than a blatant attempt to promote the domestic auto industry. Art Spinnela has zero credibility, and if you quote him you will also have zero credibility.

As far as the "moonscape" around Sudbury, Ontario, Canada, the former INCO was always secretive about who their biggest customers and customer totals were. Overall the vast majority of INCO's output over the past 50 years went to American auto makers and industrial clients, so perhaps the Americans should be investing more into the Sudbury and region cleanup?

Overall, Toyota has purchased around 1% of Sudbury's yearly output. To keep it fair, I suppose Toyota should contribute 1% to cleaning up Sudbury, maybe build a park.

I agree if you really *are* concerned about the environment, then purchase a good USED small car. Even better is to have no car at all.

I hope you don't mind that I got rid of your annoying large font.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

I completely agree.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 25 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]449682[/snapback]</div>

OK. I understand yours was bio vs fossil oil.

I see your comment about PM.
Please let us know the pointer that Prius's PM is worse than Jetta's.

How about NOx?
You're polluting poison everyday today, +6250%. :angry:
The CO2 is not a poison directly, but NOx is. :angry:

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 07:39 PM) [snapback]449534[/snapback]</div>

Besides the fact that virtually every point of the CNW bogus "study" has already been debunked, others have mentioned that the story about the Sudbury nickel mine was bogus too. The story has since been retracted at http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ May 25 2007, 06:53 AM) [snapback]449735[/snapback]</div>

Yes, B100 is the product of transesterification, here I can use B100 all year long, in Minnesota, freezing and gelling would pose a problem!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eb1243 @ May 24 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]449474[/snapback]</div>

The CNW study is total BS. See below:
http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...mp;#entry272611
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php...ock#post2494537
http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...mp;#entry272611
http://priuschat.com/Prius-vs-HUMMER-Explo...yth-t31938.html

You do know that a VW Phaeton incurs $2.5 MIlLION of disposal costs over its lifetime, right? Its must be so since CNW says so.

As for "proven reliability" and "longevity" of TDIs... well maybe the engine will "last" a long time, but VWs as a whole have notoriously poor reliability. Look where they are at http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/rele....asp?ID=2006133.

If you don't have the April 07 issue of Consumer Reports, look at where VW stands vs. Toyota at the URLs below.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/wh...rds/0407rep.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pr...le-new-cars.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pr...e-used-cars.htm

http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 285K miles on his previous gen Prius. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/03/fo...-175-000-miles/ mentions that all 18 Ford Escape hybrid taxis in NYC have all passed 175K miles after ~2 years. http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi mentions Andrew Grant's Prius taxi passing 200K miles in 25 months.

The HV battery is warranted on the Prius for 10 years/150K miles in CA and the handful of CARB states.

 

I had a 2001 New Beetle TDI and a 2003 Golf TDI. Fun cars, great mileage, but the turbo lag was annoying. I prefer the "punch" of the Prius over the "slingshot" of the TDI. I drive the Prius like a granny, but when I punch it, it always surprises the heck out of me how quickly it scoots. And the TDIs always left a huge cloud of black smoke when I floored it. Of course, that came in handy for pesky tailgaters or swarms of cyclists not riding single-file.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 25 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]449653[/snapback]</div>

OK, I'll grant that there may be a change in pep on a racetrack testing, and even possibly in daily driving. I personally haven't experienced it at all, but maybe I drive too cautiously!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vdubstress @ May 28 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]450802[/snapback]</div>

Agin, the B100 biodiesel emits a lot of NOx unless a vehicle is certified as Tier 2 Bin 5, 2007 and later standard.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Les Gas @ May 28 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]450873[/snapback]</div>

I see...
So, the TDI's are out of date and emit a lot of PM too.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ May 27 2007, 09:47 PM) [snapback]450898[/snapback]</div>

Under normal daily driving situations I agree with you. There usually isn't too much variation

 

Couple of comments from a current TDI owner (actually, we have three of them right now plus a diesel MB ) who has driven the Prius on several occasions.

- The VW interior is much higher quality and more comfortable for long trips. Prius interior feels cheap and plasticy in comparison. Jetta wagon has more overall cargo room but Prius has larger opening so can accept bulkier items. The VW feels more 'substantial' on the road, even at high speeds. Prius gets blown around a bit on the road if it's windy out or if an 18-wheeler drives by.

- Both cars will return roughly the same average fuel economy. That fuel economy will depend VERY much on your driving habits. Whether you go with a TDI or a Prius, if you're only getting 35 mpg, it's because of how YOU are driving it. Winter temperatures and very short trips will give low MPG no matter which one you choose. A lead foot, racing from one red light to the next will give low MPG no matter which one you choose.

- Don't buy an Mk4 (1999 - 2004) Jetta sedan or Beetle. Those were assembled in Mexico and the quality problems VW is having is because of those Mexico-assembled models. The Golf and Jetta Wagon are built in Germany and are outstanding vehicles. The quality surveys don't differentiate between country of origin so they're a bit misleading. For example, the '08 Toyota Tundra has been plagued with defective cam-shafts that actually snap in half. It would be false and mis-leading to make a blanket statement that "All Toyotas have poor quality engines that are prone to failure".

- The TDI will have much higher resale value when it comes time to sell it. Search ebay for a 2002 Jetta VR6 or 1.8t with over 100,000 miles on it. Then search for the exact same 2002 Jetta with over 100,000 miles but with TDI engine. The TDI model sells for many thousands $$$ more. Two of our TDI's, we've owned for 3+ years and we've had offers from prospective buyers offering more money than we paid!! How many cars can you drive for 3 years and then sell it for profit? That said, I have no idea what the Prius resale values look like, they could well be similar. Do your own homework here for a proper comparison.

- The Prius will be 'easier' to maintain properly. Diesel engines require special diesel engine oil. If you take your TDI to a Quickie-Lube for the $10 cheapo oil change, you'll kill the engine in no time. You'll also void your warranty if you use the wrong oil. If you're looking at a new TDI and you do your own oil changes, there are NO auto parts stores in the US that sell the correct oil. None. You need to order it online or buy it from the dealer. (Older TDI's like my '96 can use off-the-shelf diesel oils).

- A diesel engine requires less maintenance than a gasoline engine. Oil change only every 10k miles. Diesel engines don't use spark plugs so you never need a tune-up. Diesel engines are more reliable and longer lasting than gasoline engines. A well maintained diesel car will go 500k miles. 18-wheeler diesel trucks go 2 Million miles between engine rebuilds. Most people these days buy a new car and then keep it for only a few years before trading it in on another new car. I bought my '96 Passat TDI in 2003 with 80k miles on it. Now it has 178k miles and not a single problem with the engine or transmission. Runs like new and I have no plans to sell it any time soon. Lots of folks over on the TDIclub.com forums have more than 300,000+ miles on their car with no major problems whatsoever.

Lastly, EITHER car will be a good choice since they both are effective tools for reducing fossil fuel consumption. Less money going to evil foreign governments who want to kill us - that's what it's all about!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Les Gas @ May 28 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]450873[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps you had an air filter that was overdue for changing or some other maintenance item that was missed. TDI's are very clean high-tech machines and a healthy one won't smoke.

In 2008, the new "common-rail" TDI engines will be available which are 50-state certified and CLEANER than many gasoline cars! B)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/volkswagen_test.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lupin..the..3rd @ May 29 2007, 10:06 AM) [snapback]451505[/snapback]</div>

No, sorry, not true. A large diesel engine in a Class 8 truck can go 2 million miles but would need to be rebuilt several times. I think 250k to 500k is a more reasonable estimate. Argonne National Labs used an estimate of 750k total miles as a lifetime for a Class 8 truck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ May 29 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]451528[/snapback]</div>

I think maybe you're not familiar with what's out there. I know a fleet manager at a trucking firm who's a diesel geek like me and uses all the best oils and fluids and whatnot to ensure longevity. He showed me photos of an engine with 800,000 miles. (That first digit is an eight). It was his test vehicle and he tore the engine down not because it needed a rebuild, but just to inspect and measure the internals for wear, etc. At 800,000 miles, the cross-hatch honing was still visible on the cylinder walls, and a leakdown test showed 93% on the lowest cylinder. A very healthy engine still.

Here's a truck that went more than 400,000 miles on a single oil change!! At more than 600,000 miles on the motor, it was still in excellent running condition internally as determined by a teardown inspection:

http://www.go-synthetic.com/409_000_Mack/409_000_mack.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lupin..the..3rd @ May 29 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]451541[/snapback]</div>

I am familiar with what is out there, I use syn fluids in my own vehicles, but the average Class 8 truck does not go 2 mil miles without an overhaul. Not every fleet manager uses syn oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lupin..the..3rd @ May 29 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]451505[/snapback]</div>

Over here, most VW's are TDI's. I've owned one as well. ALL of them smoke when pushed hard, even brand new ones. MANY of them smoke a lot of the time, collecting black sooth on their bumpers. On top of that, VW has been delaying the introduction of particle filters, they were optional here years after Peugot and others had them as standard. It's funny how VW has this green image in the US, they're our version of GM here.

The particle emissions produced by diesel engines are a big problem here, with a large percentage of cars running on diesel. Building projects had to be stopped because the air quality in the area did not meet the new EU standards. And it's not only diesel, the lean burning VW FSI gasoline engines actually produce more of the smallest, most harmful particles than a diesel.