Arbitration with Toyota

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ May 13 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]441137[/snapback]</div>

Apriusfan, you seem to know some about the lemon law. Perhaps you can share with the group rather than criticize someone for trying to help a fellow prius owner. I never claimed to be an expert on Georgia law I was simply offering my input on what happened with me and a different manufacturer. If I recall, the link I provided has a spot to look up your local state laws. Obviously each case will be different and each state has their own variants of the lemon law. That being said, most suits use the federal magnuson moss warranty act because the automotive lobbiests have rendered many state lemon law clauses useless with the warranty they provide us, legal loop holes suck.

Long story short- I hope that Toyota and rcatz4 are able to resolve the issues with her Prius in a timely fashion and that rcatz4 is treated politely in a horrible situation like this.

 

I have been through a dealership buy back, sponsored by Ford, when I had a Ford truck that would not stop leaking oil. Though I could have gone under the Lemon Law, here in California, Ford preferred to handle it without invoking the Lemon Law to keep from having a Lemon Law claim filed against their company. I really did not care so long as I was made whole again. I ended up being paid for every penny I paid for the truck, including tax, license, and all modifications I had made to the truck. What I paid out of that sum was a very inexpensive mileage fee that was charged from brand new to when I first experienced the oil leaking. The mileage after I first reported the leaking was free for me. Over all it was an excellent resolution for me. I was 100% satisfied and the whole process tookless than 90 days.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(may all be happy @ May 11 2007, 09:16 PM) [snapback]440334[/snapback]</div>

Hello All. Thank you for referring others to my site, which is exactly why I built it. To be honest I did not go through Toyota's arbitration process. Instead, I invoked the lemon law on Toyota when dealing with my Scion xB. It is funny that you bring up the arbitration though because I have someone who visited my site writing a little summary of what her experience was like using the Toyota arbitration. Let us just say it was not pleasant and she lost her case.

In my opinion I wouldn't use Toyota's arbitration service. I have a detailed explanation on the FAQ page of my site about it:

That arbitration service is a complete joke and you are under NO obligation to use it. Sure, it sounds like Toyota/Scion is really willing to help you out with this free third-party arbitration firm, but stop and think for a minute. Does this arbitration firm work for free? Well, since you are not paying them for the service who is? I have done some research about the arbitration service they provide and found that in 90% of the cases the arbitration service handled Toyota/Scion won. The arbitration service makes what qualifies as a defect very hard to attain since they are looking out for their paycheck from Toyota. If you also choose to use the arbitration service and you lose Toyota/Scion can have the results of that arbitration brought up in court during your lemon law case as evidence on their behalf. Just Say NO to the Arbitration Service!

Although I am not in your state, cannot offer legal consul, and do not own a Prius, I have still been through a similar situation with Toyota over my xB. After I hired an attorney the case took about 4-6 weeks before I was driving a new car and not my lemon of an xB. I hope your case goes smoother than mine did and that Toyota will rectify your situation in a timely fashion. You still may want to look into a lemon law attorney in your state to just get their opinion on the issue, which should cost nothing. If Toyota comes back and you lose your arbitration you won't have wasted time and will be ready for the next step. I also have explanations on how to collect evidence against Toyota that you can use in court. Though the site deals with the Scion xB the information contained can be applicable to any car.

I wish you the best of luck! Contact me if you have any specific questions. Thanks!

 

MyScionSucks, I believe you have an excellent site. It is discouraging to read how Toyota handled your situation. If Toyota treats all Scion owners like this, when will Prius owners get the same treatment?

In your case was restitution to the insurance companies for all the windshields considered? One would think that after x number of times the insurance company or industry would investigate the possibility that Toyota was fraudulantly passing warranty work off as comprehensive claims.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ May 14 2007, 08:50 PM) [snapback]442078[/snapback]</div>

Hello JimN. Thank you for the compliments! No, Toyota never made an attempt to compensate my insurance company for all of the glass they put into my car. They actually got vocal about that point and said I wasn't allowed to tell my insurance company anything. Yeah, it was pretty shady dealings. The funny thing is I have it all on recorded audio. It was roughly $5,000 worth of windshield glass that went on my car. My insurance company, to their credit, never questioned my claims. I was concered they would either raise my rates or drop me, which is why I started the lemon law process after my 8th windshield.

I see a lot of Prius' around town and they are a pretty cool car. You guys really seem to have a great community here and it looks like a great place to share info and meet a lot of friends interested in your same car obsession. Feel free to contact me with anymore questions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cairo94507 @ May 14 2007, 08:07 AM) [snapback]441632[/snapback]</div>

As cairo94507 posts, the California Lemon Law has some very significant teeth in it, which guess what - causes the manufacturer to become motivated to settle.

It should be no surprise that the manufacturers have resorted to arbitration (even going to the point of requiring the consumer to sign an agreement to arbitrate disputes before they can buy the car) in an attempt to circumvent the protections of the Lemon Laws. The really pernicious aspect to the attempt to transfer the handling of a claim for a lemon car is that in many instances, the consumer protections provided for in state laws can not be waived by the consumer.

Unfortunately, the Lemon Law protections vary by state, and so, one person's experience is not necessarily predictive of another person's experience. Which was why I recommended a consultation with an attorney who practices Lemon Law litigation in the state where the car was purchased. Even websites that present a summary of state Lemon Law coverage recommend a consultation with a Lemon Law attorney for guidance on specific circumstances.

msoengineer, I was not attempting to criticize your post or offer to share information. I was attempting to focus rcatz4 on getting qualified help from an attorney that is familiar with how Lemon Laws are applied in their specific circumstance.

 

it would be great if they were able to fix the problem, but it's kinda ridiculous that you had to go through all that just to have your car working right.

unfortunately, that's one of the downsides of the prius... there aren't enough real experts to go around. if something major goes wrong, you end up with this experience- that is, trial and error. i bet they finally sent out the regional guy to check out your case. if there's that kind of issue with the battery, it could very well be the problem. and you can bet toyota will take it back and investigate to see what happened with it.

at any rate, i hope this is resolved soon and you can go back to enjoying your car!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MyScionSucks @ May 14 2007, 10:18 AM) [snapback]441641[/snapback]</div>

I had the exact experience as described above with the arbitration process. The BBB is looking out for their paycheck from the auto companies and not really for us. In rare and extreme cases will you see someone win through arbitration. When I bought the prius I made sure I didn't sign the arbitration agreement as it can be used against you in court. The outcome of an arbitration may not be used against/for you in court if it's through the sponsored program.

The good news is that I recall Florida has decent lemon laws so that all the retired people don't get taken advantage of. If I were in your shoes I would skip the arbitration process and speak with a lawyer. Hopefully the car will be fixed and you won't have to go down that route again. If you do have to get a lawyer I wish you a speedy settlement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rcatz4 @ May 15 2007, 05:35 PM) [snapback]442871[/snapback]</div>

Encouraging news on a couple of fronts (Lemon Law coverage + possible resolution of your problem)!

If the replacement battery solves the problem(s) you have been experiencing, be sure they repair any damage from battery leakage/corrosion. You don't need one problem to be solved while creating another one.

Regarding arbitration, I really don't see any benefit to that route. Ask the Lemon Law attorney what they think of the arbitration (I already know what they are going to say ) and ask why they believe what they do.

I echo the sentiment that you get you car fixed. It looks like you may be on a trajectory toward a positive outcome.

 

I've used the California Lemon Law twice. I had a Sequoia for 18 months and got back nearly every cent I paid into it 35 days after contacting an attorney. My next car, an Infiniti QX4 was another problem - same result after 17 months of dismal ownership. After contacting an attorney, I had every cent back 35 days later.

DO NOT SIGN AN AGREEMENT TO ARBITRATE until you FIRST consult an attorney (a Florida lawyer) - check the internet or yellow pages - most lawyers will give you a FREE consultation for 20 minutes. Once you KNOW your rights and the merits of your case, then you can decide which route to go. And frankly, I would not put any faith in the arbitration.

And finally, when you first described your problem, my first thought was BATTERY (I just read this entire thread tonight). I have seen a couple of instances where a low or partly dead battery causes major havoc with electrical systems in cars. I'm guessing a new battery will resolve all of your problems. If it does, be thankful for that and tell the dealership you need compensation for all of the stress, added costs and inconvenience their misdiagnoses cost you. Maybe a free 36K service or something similar.

 

With a problem like that, I am surprised that the battery compartment was not checked on your second or third trip in. Are the techs so heavily dependant on error codes now thtat they cannot think to make a visual inspection of everything when the codes are not leading to a resolution? Sounds like even the fly in tech didn't check there until he saw the extra code.

I sure hope the next step isn't going to be consumers calling techs in India to resolve auto troubles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ May 22 2007, 12:19 PM) [snapback]447462[/snapback]</div>

Ha! Maybe not India, but possibly Japan....

Seriously, Hybrid technology is still quite new and in some locations, not many cars in the service department are hybrid-powered. So, it may take more than one iteration to get to a solution set. Lemon Law remedy (buy-back) is a powerful motivator for the factory to keep their finger on the dealer service department's pulse (in a manner of speaking). Lets hope the replacement battery pack solves the issue.

 

I couldn't find the codes you listed above, but the closest likely
one is P3009/526, high-voltage leak to ground. And there's an 18
page PDF in the service manual on how to track it down piece by
piece, including partial unwiring of the battery pack and testing
sections against the case. What's got me puzzled now is how you've
managed to have battery leakage in an *'06*?? I thought that
problem was more or less licked since '04...
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ May 22 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]447462[/snapback]</div>

um. they kinda have to be, really, with so much of the vehicle function being computer controlled and all. and yes DH has been sent on an hour-long wild goose chase after a chunk of leaf in the mass airflow sensor with completely irrelevant diag codes.

you know how long a visual inspection of "everything" would take? whew...

 

IF you look inside all the literature that came with your car (owner's manual, navigation system instructions, warranty info, etc.) there is a book that walks you through all the lemon laws for each state.

Whoever mentioned the three repairs and two failures is ABSOLUTELY correct. A friend of mine is going through this right now with Volkswagon.

Also if Toyota tries to depreciate your car value by number of miles you should fight to use the number of miles when this FIRST occured, not whatever the mileage is when they agree to buy it back/replace it/whatever.

From my friends advice, call the Toyota complaint line (or whatever the "corporate headquarters" may be) to alert them of the situation. My VW buddy hit the roof when he found out that his dealership hadn't reported his case up the chain of command to the regional toyota folks. He had been jacked around by the dealer for MONTHS being told, "regional manager's working on your case, blah, blah, blah".

It seems the lemon laws are on your side, just be proactive and take down everyone's name and business card that you talk to. The buck has to stop with someone!

Best of luck!