125 mpg Prius?

Unfortunately, you'd need to drive 6,000 charges not 6,000 miles. That's far longer than I could reasonably expect to drive any car and I strongly suspect longer than the set of batteries would last.

The real economic calculus would be something like this: The batteries will maintain a reasonable amount of their charge for 2,000 cycles (hopefully).

... You mean 6000 equivalent gallons, not charges. BYW. check out Altair Nanotech. They have batteries that can be recharged 10,000 cycles and counting!!! They are producing them for Pheonix Motor Co. for 2007.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ Apr 29 2006, 11:31 PM) [snapback]247420[/snapback]</div>

Exactly! If you don't get this right away, print it out in big bold letters and stick it up on your monitor. Keep reading it until you have burned it into your brain. Almost every electric vehicle option requires hybrid technology to function.

Tom

 

did anyone mention A123 yet? Last time this company was mentioned because of their latest patent on batteries.

Several companies have been offering similar deals. I believe a few links have been attached already. *shrug*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V8Cobrakid @ May 9 2007, 09:37 PM) [snapback]438734[/snapback]</div>

Several have rightly pointed out that your energy has to come from somewhere-- if you go all electric, you still are consuming the same amount of energy really (quibbling about efficiency differences aside).

The one difference, though, is that many electric companies have programs that let you specify how the energy you consume is generated. Today I can get (relatively) clean electricity. Gas is, well, gas.

 

The $10k pricetag is for the very early adopters.

Once the fleets have tried it and paid the premium, expect it to come down to a $2k option on mainstream factory vehicles.

Incidentally, even when electricity is made from coal, the very worst sort of generation for CO2 production, EV miles produce less CO2 and emissions than gasoline miles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steve48070 @ May 9 2007, 06:02 PM) [snapback]438707[/snapback]</div>

Amazing. This thread jumped from May 3, 2006 to May 9, 2007 in going from post #20 to post #21.
When I saw this thread reinvigorated, I started at the beginning and saw the link to the video with Felix Kramer of Calcars. I may have seen it before, but don't specifically remember. He indicated a $3000 conversion cost plus a week of work for installation. The calcars.org site links to cost indications of $10,000 to $36,000. I don't know if $10,000 kits are even being offered yet.

In any case, I may do the conversion eventually, even if not really cost effective.
I've got 47k miles on my Prius now, and may have over 100k by the time I get around to doing a conversion. That is, unless it can be really done for only $3000.

Dave M.


Dave M.

 

a direct comparison of fuel savings would be extremely difficult to do. a 40 mile range (20 mile range for that matter!~!) would allow to get gas every other month. so now its more like 200 mpg.

over the last 18 months, i have tracked trips ive taken and the percentages are as follows these are RT's


under 20 miles = 70%
under 40 miles = 13%
under 60 miles = 11%
100+ miles = 6%

a few notes on these stats. these are generally per day stats and the 40 and 60 mile trips involve usually several errands in a day.

so you can see, in my case, the benefits would be much greater so a blanket statement on the price of gas cant be done. im looking at 200-250 mpg... and toss on top of that the HUGE (snicker) electric bill that runs about 6.5 cents per kwh and that is during the expensive time of year...

we also need to look at the value of time. add up the time it takes to GET the gas and compare it to the time it takes to plug it in... decide what your time is worth.... if we are talking money, lets include it all

 

You guys are using the wrong numbering system. If you want to compare what it really will cost/save here is the way you should look at it.

Previous vehicle emissions vs. Prius emissions

and

Previous vehicle emissions vs Prius Plus emissions

The Prius Plus conversion is way, way, way better on emissions vs. your old non hybrid vehicle.

So that being said, when does payback begin? The day you start driving it!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jef @ May 3 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]249058[/snapback]</div>

Not here.... Most of our power comes from coal fired energy plants run by either Duke energy or the TVA in Tennessee. The pollution from those coal plants is killing the trees in our mountains with acid rain. The haze over the blue ridge mountains is now smog, not the natural blue tint that gave our mountains their name.

So I see no real advantage to powering my car with electricity UNLESS it can come from solar panels on my roof or a wind turbine in my back yard..... but I have neither of those right now. It just a pollution thing, ya know???? B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 10 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]438938[/snapback]</div>

I don't think so.
It looks CO2 generation from coal is about 1000g/kWh.
PHEV Prius is about 0.2 kWh/mile, then it produces about 200g/mile or 124g/km of CO2 by coal electric.
UK Prius is rated as 104g/km, so the current hybrid Prius wins.

Ken@Japan

 

I have been keeping an eye on this topic for a bit and was surprised to see it pop back up. Anyone have any ideas if EDrive or Hymotion have moved into commercialization yet? They have not updated their FAQs and have old dates in there.

Seeing as I will have solar panels installed soon I am now considering the plug in more, but still want flexibility of a hybrid for long trips. Then I do not have to have a separate commute EV. As it is now I only fill up about once a month for my typical commute driving. We use the wife's for her commuting and running errands (she fills up twice a month).

 

on both websites, there is an option to get on their mailing list and i did that a while back and have not heard from either yet

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ May 10 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]439599[/snapback]</div>

I have read differently. At least for the average updated coal-burning power plants. according to the U.S. Department of Energy in 2004? A coal-fired plant produced a 38% yield whereas a gas-engine automobile was about 30%. Now I've also read that some of the newer updated plants the efficiency rating can be upwards of 60% (in addition to much cleaner output) which puts you way ahead of the terrible inefficiency of a gas-power vehicle. Add to the fact you would normally be charging your vehicle at night during off peak hours. If there are enough vehicles out there the infrastructure for power generation could possibly change to allow plug-in vehicles to share their power and work as load balancing devices during fluctuating high demand situations.

I agree that coal fired plants in general are pretty terrible due to the extractive nature of their fuel source and the emissions they produce but in this case I am pretty sure obtaining your cars power from a coal-fired plant is better than gasoline. Now putting a PV array on your roof would be the best route to take.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 12 2007, 03:46 AM) [snapback]440446[/snapback]</div>

Many coal stations are around 900g/kWh, and the calculation for powerplants normally includes the CO2 output from associated processes in the chain, such as mining the (usually locally produced) coal.

However the g/km figure quoted for the Prius (and all other cars) is misleading. The published CO2 figure is calculated as the CO2 released only out of the exhaust pipe. It does not take into account the CO2 emissions involved in exploration, drilling, transporting and refining of the final gasoline product, which adds up to a lot of extra CO2 per km!

For example, refineries use a huge amount of electricity to process crude to gasoline - around 4 kWh of electricity per gallon produced. That's enough for 20 miles EV cruising, while some gasoline vehicles only get 20 miles per gallon of gasoline!

 

If you compare a standard hybrid with a plug-in version of the same car, there would be a net decrease in the greenhouse gas produced by using the plug-in, regardless of how the electrical power is generated. An article in Solar Today on plug-in hybrids concluded that if the cars were charged overnight, the present electrical grid in the US could handle about 80% of the total number of cars, assuming everyone was driving a plug-in. The grid can't be shut down at night, so a lot of its power is essentially wasted as demand drops in the evening. The plug-in cars would be using power that is already there, unused, so, in a sense, would not be adding as much greenhouse gas as you might think.

Parts of the US, like the Pacific Northwest where I live, derive most of the energy from hydroelectric sources, so in Seattle, a plug-in means a big improvement in overall greenhouse gas emissions. We have solar photovoltaics on our house, which would make a plug-in conversion an even more enticing proposition.

That said, I think there is some merit in the observation made elsewhere in this post, that modifying an existing Prius and both voiding the warranty and changing the operating parameters, might be risky. The car has been superbly engineered as is, and messing with it might have unforeseen consequences. Better, perhaps, to wait for the introduction of a Prius specifically designed as a plug-in. Toyota has stated that they are working on it. Those of us driving 2004 Prii with about 30k miles on them, might do better to wait for Toyota rather than spending 5-10k, possibly more, on converting a car with that many miles on it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ May 13 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]441350[/snapback]</div>

The "best laid plans" and all that. Anyone's estimates of "when" something is going to be available is rarely accurate. Like when my wife has a little construction project she wants me to do. It should only take a few hours. Ha!!

I'm still curious about battery availability. If I make it down to Reno this summer, I'll see if I can contact Altairnano. I wonder if it would help to tell them I'm a physics prof. Who knows.

Dave M.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Angel Flight Pilot @ May 14 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]441752[/snapback]</div>

30k miles is "new". I've got 47k on my '05 now. I'll probably do a conversion sometime after I reach 100k. I won't be worried about the warranty then. Also by then, Norm (eflier) will have been using his conversion long enough to anticipate any problems.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 14 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]441515[/snapback]</div>

I can't find any source about 900g/kWh number.
Would you please show us the pointer?

I see the 4 kWh is Well-to-Tank engery, and I believe there are numbers for coal as well.

Oh, you were talking about 20 mpg gas guzzlers on Prius forum.

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 15 2007, 02:34 AM) [snapback]442251[/snapback]</div>

No problem, I have used figures for whole life-cycle CO2 emissions for UK power stations, eg:

http://www.british-energy.co.uk/pagetemplate.php?pid=251
http://www.niauk.org/climate-change.html

In Germany it is lower, around 800 g/kWh, as their coal is very close to the surface and they tend to build the power plants right next to the mine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ken1784 @ May 15 2007, 02:34 AM) [snapback]442251[/snapback]</div>

I was simply pointing out that the amount of electricity required to make a gallon of gasoline could take you 20 miles anyway. Why not just take the gasoline out of the equation?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 15 2007, 07:22 PM) [snapback]442288[/snapback]</div>

Thank you!

This report says "This compares to emissions of CO2 from a typical UK coal plant of around 900 g/kWh, based upon the operational stage alone.".

How can we tell that the "operational stage alone" does include mining, transportation and everything?

It says 800-1000 g/kWh.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/output.html
Toyota's study for Well-to-Tank efficiency is 88%.
The UK Prius 104g/km becomes 118g/km which is still very good.

In Japan. all coal have to be imported, so maybe Japan is the worst 1000g/kWh area. :angry:

Ken@Japan