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Arbitration with Toyota

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by rcatz4, May 8, 2007.

  1. rcatz4

    rcatz4 New Member

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    :( I have a 2006 Seaside Pearl that I absolutely love. It has been a dream car until recently. One afternoon about 6 weeks ago, the entire dash lit up with warning lights (master warning light, etc.). I immediately pulled over and turn my car off. When I attempted to restart, I was not able to shift out of neutral. I called the dealer and they towed the car in. The next day they returned my car to me telling me that a "code had to be reset" but this was a "very rare thing to happen" and would probably never happen again. Well on my way home that afternoon, it occurred again. So again the car was towed. The dealer told me they honestly didn't know what the problem was since it went away as soon as the code was reset. So the technical manager decided to keep it for a week and drive it around to see if the error occurred again. It did not so they returned the car to me with the order for me to drive the car to them without turning the engine off so they could see it with the "error lights displayed". That same afternoon it occurred again so I took it back to them so they could see the warning lights. This time they decided to replace the "power inverter". It was then returned to me and immediately showed the warning lights again. Then the dealer replaced the "computer system". This time it didn't even make it out of the lot before the warning lights came on again. The last attempt to fix the problem was last week when they replaced the transmission. I picked the car up on Friday and Saturday morning the warning lights were back. The technicians say they are stumped as to the problem. They have called other Toyoto service departments and cannot figure out the problem. I am fed up to say the least. I know the mechanics have tried really hard to fix the problem and overall I have been treated well by the dealer (given a rental car etc.) but I cannot go indefinitely while they keep trying out different parts. I was told they have already spent more than $10,000 trying to fix the problem. So yesterday I contacted Toyota to begin arbitration. At this point, I want my money back or my car replaced. I honestly do love the Prius and I hope this was just a fluke so if I decide to go with another Prius I won't have this kind of problem again. I drive more than 120 mile a day and need a reliable car. Has anyone gotten a refund or replacement for a "lemon"? Anyone with similar mechanical problems? :unsure:
     
  2. SomervillePrius

    SomervillePrius New Member

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    I feel your pain.

    I agree that at this point your car should be replaces or your money back. It's clearly something wrong with it. It's rare that priuses breaks down so I hope you will consider a replacement.

    Let us know what happens!

    /Robert
     
  3. brick

    brick Active Member

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    Do you know what that code was that they kept resetting? I'm surprised they kept replacing expensive parts without a little more certainty that the problem would be fixed.
     
  4. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    Yeah -- what code? And did they actually sic a *diagnostics* guy on
    it, rather than just trying to parts-swap it away? One loose
    connector can ruin your whole day, y'know, and it's their job to
    find it.
    .
    _H*
     
  5. priusmaybe

    priusmaybe New Member

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    This is disturbing.


    What dealership in Georgia?


    I have wondered about everything for the ac/radio/etc being run off of one computer screen. - It was my big concern for this car.


    It seems like enough of these cars are out there now that they could diagnose it.
     
  6. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    diagnostics is hard stuff and there aren't a ton of people who are really any good at it, especially with the hybrids, but they have a technical assistance line for that.

    there are lots of 'computer systems' in the car... to say they replaced a computer system doesn't say much. without more detailed information we can't say much as to the actual problem, but it is definitely time to check out the lemon laws in your state. whether it's the car that's just mortally screwed up or the service department, the liability doesn't fall on you to figure out what's wrong and fix it.

    good luck!
     
  7. rcatz4

    rcatz4 New Member

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    Thanks for everyone's responses. I am sickened at the idea of losing my car but I know it is time to have closure on this issue. I don't exactly understand how the arbitration thing will work but I hope to either get a replacement Prius or purchase another if I am refunded. Up until this problem, I was absolutely in love with the car so I really want to give it another shot. I know the Lemon Law for Georgia covers the first 12,000 miles and my car has right at 34,000 miles on it. So I assume it will fall under warranty guidelines instead of the Lemon Law. If anyone has any experience with arbitration, I would love to hear your experience. I was told this matter should be resolved in about 40 days. Until then, I continue to drive a rental car (a 2007 Toyota Corolla provided by the dealer) but I don't enjoy driving it nearly as much as the Prius and the extra cost in gas ($30-$40 weekly) is making me sick.

    Unfortunately I am a middle aged lady without much mechanical knowledge so I haven't known what kinds of questions to ask the technician. He only indicated resetting a "code" but did not say which one. I don't know what computer parts were replaced, I was just told the "main computer system". I have no idea why a transmission was replaced. Supposedly the diagnostics guy here (Valdosta, GA) has been consulting with the diagnostics guy in Jacksonville, FL. I was told they did run a diagnostics check and still are not sure about the problem. They seem to feel it is some intermittent problem which is making it difficult to diagnose. They claim they have worked on lots of Prius and never encountered this problem before.
     
  8. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rcatz4 @ May 9 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]438605[/snapback]</div>
    Regardless of who is paying for the repair it is YOUR car. You are entitled to precise explanations, lists of parts replaced, and trouble codes found. Everything should be in writing from the dealer. If not, make your own detailed notes. Politely suggest that if the guys from 2 dealers can't figure it out then find someone from Japan who can. I would also contact Toyota directly and get them involved in the resolution. If you want another Prius hold out for another --same color and option level. Toyota can either find one or build one. I seriously doubt 2 Prius techs have worked on "lots of Prius" as the car doesn't seem to have a long list of mechanical or electrical problems. (Galaxee, if you disagree, I'll stand corrected.)
     
  9. ystasino

    ystasino Active Member

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    Sorry for your situation.

    It is really disturbing that they cannot find the error. I mean EVERY bolt and error should be traceable. I'm very surprised they have replaced all these parts without knowing what the problem is.

    Why didn't they just call Toyota saying they have an unknown error code?

    I know little about cars and much less about the hybrid, maybe someone here could help...
     
  10. NoMoShocks

    NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ystasino @ May 9 2007, 11:03 PM) [snapback]438886[/snapback]</div>
    What is the LEMON LAW in Georgia? Out West, more than three times for the same problem = NEW CAR.
     
  11. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ May 9 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]438913[/snapback]</div>
    I don't know about the lemon laws in any states, but definitely it should go back to Toyota. They should want to find out what went wrong so it can be avoided in the future. $10,000 lost by the company (I assume it's still under warranty) without fixing the car is too much. Not for just one time, but repeated it could cost the company a lot more.

    Dave M.
     
  12. rcatz4

    rcatz4 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ May 10 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]439190[/snapback]</div>
    You make a good point. I would not think Toyota would want to spend this amount of money on fixing a car, especially since they have never been convinced of the problem. I contacted the Toyota company after the "computer replacement" didn't work and they assigned a customer service person to my case. Essentially the only thing that happened with that was that customer service person then sent a letter to the dealer's customer service person inquiring about the situation. I received a call from this local representative and that was when I found out they decided it must be something with the transmission and was told a part was being ordered. So I waited a week for the part to arrive and the repair just to take the car home and the system to fail again the next morning. At that point I called the Toyota company customer service person back and told him I was fed up with "guessing" and was ready to start arbitration which is the process you have to go through to file for a replacement car or a refund. I am currently waiting to receive the paperwork which will start that process. The way it was explained to me, I will be assigned a mediator (who is not directly employed by Toyota) to review my case and to make a decision whether additional repairs should be attempted or whether I qualify for a refund or replacement. Surely I will!!!! I would rather get a replacement but I do want a car of the same color/options/ etc. as my car and don't want to settle for less since this is not my fault and the car is still under warranty (BTW- most lemon laws for new cars only apply for the first 12,000 miles on the car and after that the laws that govern warranties will apply. I assume that is why I have to go through this arbitration). Anyway, I am worried about getting a refund since I was told I would not just get a refund of the purchase price but a price that reflects the age and amount of mileage on the car. Since I have only been paying on the car loan for a year, I am worried that I might not even get enough to pay off my loan, especially since I purchased the extended warranty and financed it into the price. I did find out that I am not legally bound by any decision made by the mediator although Toyota is bound by the findings. If I am not happy with the outcome of the arbitration, I can seek my own legal counsel and if I win the case, Toyota has to foot my lawyer fees, etc. I don't want it to come to that but my husband is determined this should not end up costing us one red cent. He still hasn't gotten over the fact that the $3500 "tax credit" was a joke due to the alternative tax. Anyway, I think it is in Toyoto's best interest to keep me happy since I do intend to buy another Prius. I have certainly learned a lot from this experience. I will definitely ask for detailed information IN WRITING for now on with any car repairs that are done.
    Rita
     
  13. mpgFanatic

    mpgFanatic New Member

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    Realistically, the best you can hope for is that Toyota will give you a good trade-in on a new car. If you have only owned the car a year and financed it, unless you made a big down payment, you really don't have much equity for them to refund.

    I wish you the best of luck but I think your expectations are far too optimistic.
     
  14. kblast523

    kblast523 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ May 10 2007, 02:58 AM) [snapback]438913[/snapback]</div>
    The FEDERAL law is the manufacturers representative (dealer) must identify AND correct the problem three times. All states have some variation but it is basically the same. I tested the lemon law in Texas in 1984, just days after enacted and Chrysler bought baack a Dodge Daytona Turbo from me for exactly what I had paid for it 364 days and 4 months in the shop later. The manufacturer must identify the problem, fix the problem and have two usbsequent failures, same or different in nature, before being eligible for action under the consumer protection phase of the law. Remember, the 35K or so miles will also be deducted, and I am positive the Toytota people around here would go way down on the limbo bar to make someone happy here. Seoutheastern States Toyota may not be so accomodading. If you can start an inteligent dialog with someone at the dealership I am sureToyota Corproate will jump on board.
    Do not believe everything they tell you at the dealer. Believe only what you can see with your own two eyes. (Reciepts/parts). If they offer you another vehicle, be wary. I beleive if your is fixable and your dealer is reputable, your car will be repaired. If you suggest maybe (if you have not already) you should contact the regional people with Toyota and meet with resistance, your car trouble is covered beyound 3 year/36K miles if for nothingmore than the notice it broke so close to the mileage limit. They recieved notice of a defect and have to act on it.
    Best of luck, keep us posted. My 2005 has been flawless...
     
  15. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    Rita, have you contacted a Consumer Affairs office in your state or county government? Perhaps filing a complaint against the dealer and Toyota (or at least suggesting it) may encourage speedier action. Good luck.
     
  16. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    get yourself a list of part names, numbers, diagnostic code numbers, anything else they have records of. especially the codes. if you can do that we'll see if DH has seen anything like it before. now HE is a guy who's worked on pretty much every screwed up hybrid that's come through the service bays in the past couple of years.
     
  17. may all be happy

    may all be happy New Member

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    My research into arbitration resulted in the discovery of a couple of resources on arbitration. Search on Toyota arbitration and/ or Prius arbitration.

    Here is a link to someone who has performed an esteemable act by sharing his experiences with Toyota arbitration:

    http://www.myscionsucks.com/index.html

    and

    http://www.lemonlawsusa.com/

    I am trying to remain reasonable with Toyota before pursuing arbitration. Maybe they will work out a claim on a confirmed manufacturing defect in the paint. My 2007 Prius needs to be repainted! They don't want to replace the car even though I reported the problem with 300 miles on the car. So much for QC. No matter how big the problem it is not worth my happiness. Reasonable consumers have options particularly in the Internet age.

    If they tried to fix your car several times and have provided a loaner car they are showing concern for the problem. Best of luck to you.
     
  18. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mpgFanatic @ May 10 2007, 03:27 PM) [snapback]439520[/snapback]</div>
    Any particular reason that a Lemon Law attorney has not been contacted?

    Just because you signed an agreement to arbitrate doesn't mean you are compelled to arbitrate the dispute (at least not in California; other states may have a different take on that concept, which is why you should at least have an initial consultation with a Lemon Law attorney who is familiar with the applicaiton of the Lemon Law in your state).
     
  19. msoengineer

    msoengineer New Member

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    I have been through the entire lemon process with Nissan. It was not easy,fast, or cheap. All in all I walked away losing $0.125 per mile. Nissan ended up settling the day of my case. They agreed to buy back my car, pay off my loan, and pay all attorney's fees (after discounting the fees). It took me 2.5 years to complete all this. That being said, my car was driveable during the time.

    Usually the lemon law has two clauses. One for time in the shop and another for repair attempts. If you car is in the shop for more than 30 days total, they don't have to be consecutive days, or if your car has been repaired three times plus a written letter to toyota saying you have one last chance or I sue then you can move forward and you have a solid case. I would imagine Toyota would be reasonable in this situation and offer to replace the car minus a mileage offset. In my case arbitration was worthless. My arbitrator agreed that my car was legally a lemon but said "all cars have problems, live with it" and I ended up losing the arbitration thus leading to my suit against Nissan.

    If you are really interested in learning about the lemon law and what to do please PM me and I will gladly share what I know with you. Good luck and keep us posted as to your outcome.

    here is a guide I posted on maxima.org when I was going through my suit:
    http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.php?p=35...amp;postcount=1

    This is a pretty good reference of what to do.
     
  20. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(msoengineer @ May 13 2007, 07:52 AM) [snapback]441047[/snapback]</div>
    While sharing information about the Lemon Law process in Illinois might be informative, it won't necessarily apply to the Lemon Law in Georgia. rcatz4 is going to be subject to the Lemon Law of Georgia if that is where the car was originally purchased. Each state has slight differences in the Lemon Law. For example, in California, the plaintiff's attorney fees are paid by the manufacturer. Guess how many Lemon Law actions in California result in buy-backs (at full price without deduction for miles driven)?