"Imagine paying as little as $1.25 a gallon to run your car." "Not for gasoline. Instead, you would pump a fuel that's readily available, North American-produced and virtually pollution-free. Many motorists could even fill up in their own garages every night..." "Therein lies the paradox of the natural-gas powered car. Most major automakers offered them in the 1990s, primarily for government and corporate fleets. Back then, smog was the chief national concern. Yet today, when natural gas offers a common-sense, immediate and ecological relief valve to the nation's dependence on foreign oil, only one major automaker still makes a production model — and sales stink." "Automakers and government agencies are pouring billions into development of hydrogen-powered vehicles. But ironically, the vast majority of hydrogen made in the USA right now is derived from converting natural gas." http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-0...-gas-usat_N.htm
Yey ANOTHER hydrogen short-coming. When will we stop the madness? Repeat after me...hydrogen is not a transportation fuel... The ineffciencies of hydrogen versus ANTYHING else out there are glaring...why do we as a species seem so bent on doing the wrong thing?
Interesting read, I didn't know home filling stations existed. Not a possibility in the townhouse I live but still it should make CNG cars more attractive. Still the Honda "only" seem to fulfill the SULEV emission standard and not the PZEV the Prius is in so how clean are these cars really? And what models/makes are available?
You know, DC even had a Charger concept that produced a pretty decent amount of power from CNG. What happened to CNG? It seems like it got lost in the hoopla of Fuel Cells and H2 power.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ May 9 2007, 09:39 AM) [snapback]438228[/snapback]</div> right. it's not a fuel, it's an alternative energy storage method, like, say, batteries. the glimmering mirage that makes people want to pursue it is that just from a chemistry-class point of view (discounting all the insurmountable problems of actually using the energy) hydrogen is an extremely lightweight way to store energy. But as soon as you leave chem. class and try to build a car around the chemical reaction H2 + 2O2 --> 2H2O +energy, you run into just enormous problems
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(soccerdad @ May 9 2007, 11:39 AM) [snapback]438261[/snapback]</div> There is a lot of free hydrogen in the sun. Maybe we should start mining it. We'll have to go at night so we don't burn up. Tom
In the late 1980s and early 1990s it was common to convert vehicles especially PU trucks to run on gas or LNG/CNG. In 1993 conversion prices were $4500-$5000. At that time in Orlando there were only a few places to get fuel. 1996 all the places had closed the auto fill-up sides of their business. Im not sure at that time, you could pull up to your neighborhood hardware store and say filler-up... :mellow: One of the downsides was the tank is fairly large for a small - mid-sized sized vehicle. The tank, lines & connectors have to be inspected on a regular basis. Back in the 1980s it was used as an alternate fuel for county goverments, repairs where costly some cars that where conversions gas & cng had caught fire due to cracked lines. Then NG prices started to climb, the more demand the faster the product climbs in price. the places I know that ran LPG & CNG now run diesel or standard gas.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ May 9 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]438232[/snapback]</div> And they give the compressor that they install in your garage (or whereever) a cutsie name: "Phil"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ May 9 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]438232[/snapback]</div> In CA, CNG vehicles are considered ZEV. They are allowed HOV access and free toll - just like Battery EVs. They are the cleanest production ICE vehicles on the road. Currently just the Civic.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HBO6 @ May 9 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]438224[/snapback]</div> Please, folks, let's not forget that while Natural gas IS a cleaner burning alternative to gasoline, it is STILL a fossil fuel, and STILL produces 75% of the CO2 of gasoline. (source: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfue...atural_gas.pdf) As far as I'm concerned, NO fossil fuel is a long term solution. As long as we continue to release carbon into our atmosphere that was sequestered millions of years ago, when the planet was a much hotter place, the planet will continue to get hotter. I'm not arguing that fossil fuels have NO place in the total energy solution for the planet. Nor do I imagine that we can simply stop fossil fuel consumption overnight. I'm a realist (but doesn't everyone say that?). But if we want to continue to inhabit the surface of this planet, fossil fuels CANNOT be the primary energy source for the future. The real solution is bio-fuels, and all the non-polluting natural energies (solar, wind, geothermal, etc). At this point, obviously, neither the technology or infrastructure exists for these to meet our energy demands. But, long-term, they MUST become our primary sources. And right now, a family with solar on the roof and a plug-in hybrid (both of which are availible, though not commonly for the plug-in) can SLASH their "carbon footprint." Electricity truly is "zero-emission" at its point of use. Certainly it presents some pollution challenges of its own (battery chemicals, etc), and if generated from fossil fuels is still a problem in that regard, but centralized power production can be much cleaner than point of use production. Electric passenger vehicles can meet probably 90% of our transportation needs even with current technology. That's the direction we need to move in.
My normal ride at work is a Civic GX, powered by natural gas. It works well as a fleet car. The organization I work for has refueling facilities scattered about. That's good, because otherwise, refueling on the road is a nightmare. Even driving within the State I live in, I have to make plans on where I can refuel. If I ever went out of State, I'd really have to do some planning. It's nice having a refueling place at home, but what do you do when you need a refill on any kind of serious road trip? And you will need a refill fairly often, because natural gas is less energy-dense than gasoline. I have heard that our newest Civic GX's have a longer range. The older ones need refueling about every 150 miles or so. When you don't know where your next refueling station is, you don't crowd the empty line on your gauge! Harry
Ok, my dream car is this: Plug in hybrid. Garage with solar roof collection and 2-3 lightweight battery packs (Lithiun Ion?) that charge during the day. Drive car home, pull out "spent" battery pack, slide in charged pack from garage. Ready to go. Put spare charged pack in back of car (in case needed ). If needed, car run on gas. At some point, convertable to biodiesel. All available today.
Not to mention natural gas extraction is still dirty and often a prelude or excuse to dig into the oil beds below the gas deposit. It has its uses but it is not an alternative.
Hi All, Imagine paying $250 / month to heat your apartment, and $1000 to heat your house. This is what large scale adoption of Natural Gas cars would cause. Imagine gasoline and coal be gasified to make up the difference between resources and reality. If a goal is a reduction of CO2 emissions, natural gas cars are a backward step. Why should we use a fuel that can be used for 80 % plus efficiency purpose (heating) and run it around in machines that are lucky to make a 20 % usage out of it! This is just wrong. On the other hand, having driven behind both a NGV Civic and a Diesel Jetta, the NGV Civic was definately the better choice experience (cough cough choke choke VW sucks...).
only the cabs here are CNG (and maybe a few delivery trunks). I haven't seen very many FFV Tauruses (those that can run on CNG and gas)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 9 2007, 08:29 PM) [snapback]438677[/snapback]</div> donee, 80 percent efficiency for a forced-air heating systems sucks. That's a cheapo furnace for someone deluded enough to only look at up front costs. My high efficiency natural gas fired Lennox is over 92 percent efficient. Natural gas cars won't catch on big. The thing to worry about is natural-gas fired generating stations, which consume huge amounts of natural gas and have raised the price of natural gas to all of us. Harry
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 9 2007, 08:29 PM) [snapback]438677[/snapback]</div> If you super-insulated a modestly sized house that was designed for solar gain, your heating bill would be almost $0. My wife and I just finished up looking for a house and our buyer's agent though I was crazy when we would drive up to a house and say no. She would ask why and I would reply, "because the long axis is orientated North - South instead of East - West." It was the same thing with windows on the south side with good shading to keep the summer sun out of the house. Just because home heating burns fuel efficiently in no excuse to burn more fuel. That would be no different that trading a Hummer for a Prius then moving 100 miles farther from work.
