BT Tech Stiffening plate

I'm not an engineer, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen engineers miss things.... every year they take what they "thought" was a perfect product and yet improve it the more.... after 50 years of doing so.. we now have the modern car we drive today.

Brian did a test before and I don't remember the exact details, but it had to do with placing the car on a relatively steep incline and while bracing one wheel so it won't roll.. then jack up only "one" of the rear tires and compare the gap in the doors with "not" having the car jacked.
Brian can correct me and fill in the gaps here as I am going merely by memory.

Whats the difference in Brians test over what has been submitted here?
Well I'm not sure, as I'm not an engineer, but if I understand this right....by place the car on a hill.. it simulates the rear forces of taking off as the weight of the car is being thrown rearward.

I didn't study these recent test just presented in detail and they talk "engineering talk" and make me dizzy, but what I don't think has been represented here are forces of side impact of wind gust, forward and rear forces of accelerating and stopping as well as side forces of turning at high speeds.
Sudden forces of gravity pulling down on the car and the road rises and then gravity seemingly letting go as the road surface drops.

Now lets consider the forces of while driving at high speeds having the road surface abruptly changing under the car..... sudden forces of 3 inches, 6 inches, rises and falls all in the twinkling of an eye as the weight gets jerked up and down as the shocks absorb the most they can and the springs buffer the blow of the rest... the remaining energy is "felt" by the driver as the shocks, springs, and struts all cannot remove all the energy or it would feel like we were in a hover craft.

As Alan eluded to.. it is extremely hard to reproduce real test of dynamic energies involved at high speeds while sitting still in a garage.

Adequate addition of sensors in the right places with the right tolerances set and the "right" energies tested can only be done IMO by traveling down the road with the car and testing while dynamically in motion under stresses.
However that is a tremendous feat.

Now we have the element of how to "reproduce" the same tests over and over again... this also will be very difficult since exact road placement on the pavement along with exact speeds in those same locations along with intensity of driving will be very difficult to reproduce each time.

Although it is fun to see if something obvious can be discovered with the vehicle sitting in a garage, it is at best inconclusive compared to real driving.

I'm glad to see some real testing and attempts to discover the truth with science. However, this may be a real challenge.

Its like searching for a hidden object... because you look one time and didn't find it.. that doesn't mean its not there.... until the object is actually found, or every possible avenue is searched, the results remain inconclusive.

Seaching every "avenue" in this matter is an astounding feat that rivals even Toyota engineers as so many variables are involved.

Even knowing what every avenue is, is the first challenge, then accurately measuring and testing each of those avenues is the other challenge.

This is going to be a quest that remains inconclusive until someone scientifically finds a "positive" result.

As long as the scientific results are "negative" and others say they "feel" a difference... science will have to bow and admit it cannot monitor every angle and make an accurate report concerning all the facets that the Human senses and feelings can detect.

Its almost as evasive and illusive as trying to develope an instrument that can argue with me and tell me I'm not smelling jasmine in the air as I drive down the road with my windows down.

 

I find it odd that no one with the BT plate is even remotely curious enough to remove it entirely and compare it vs nothing. Since the BT plate is supposed to be better than the stock one, the difference should be overwhelming when comparing it to not having one.

This reminds me of the clergy who refused to look through Galileo's telescope. Or is it just laziness? Or apathy? Fear of being wrong? Fear of having wasted money? It's funny that all the time and energy is taken to return to this thread and banter about, but somehow removing the plate to compare it vs nothing is too much effort.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Les Gas @ Apr 21 2007, 09:59 PM) [snapback]427661[/snapback]</div>

I don't believe the difference is that much, certainly not an overwhelming improvement. I think that maybe there is some improvement, just not what many people think they feel. They just want to justify their purchase. Could a trained driver feel the difference? Certainly. Could the average driver? Some might, but most wouldn't had they not known it was installed.

I believe there may be improvements under hard conditions. The real question is whether the price point is worth what it delivers.

The $20 off sale brings it closer to what I am willing to pay. Is that price including shipping?

 

This had occurred to me -- but what happens to the car without any plate? I'm surely not going to risk splitting the frame to justify buying the plate.

Me -- I like the plate. I have found it adds stiffness during rough cornering (meaning left turns onto bumpy pavement).

I don't get what the big dramatic argument is about...? You like it, you don't... Be happy with what you have. We all have the best car on the road -- stiffer frame or not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Les Gas @ Apr 21 2007, 11:59 PM) [snapback]427661[/snapback]</div>

I see your point, but at the same time theres the angle of "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

If it was so subliminal that I wasn't sure... maybe I would do that.
When I first put the plate on "for me" it wasn't real obvious just puttering around... but when I took it out at higher speeds and especially in the mountain roads "I lived in washington state"... those were roads I had travelled for years and even though my prius was still virgin to the territory, I had already been driving for several weeks before the plate got installed and I noticed a marked difference.

I guess you could say the plate just "grew on me", but I think not as my car turned into more of a sportscar feel.

For me, usually first impressions are the most accurate.... there is no reason to try and talk myself out of it just as much as there is no reason for someone who doesn't think it works, to talk himself into it?

If you notice a difference "at all".. normally, theres not a point in trying to convince yourself out ot it?

But now that Alan has a plate, he can take it on and off all he wants and let people judge.... usually the driver is the one best attuned to judge vs. a passenger.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Apr 22 2007, 01:58 AM) [snapback]427694[/snapback]</div>

I think this is a "fair" assessment.... Rest, it appears you are trying to be fair and honest...
I also don't think everyone in the car would notice either.. its not that obvious... but a driver who is tapped into his car and drives in any aggressive manner at all.. would.
But some drivers "you have to admit" are just not tapped into the biorhythms of the car and it would take a wheel falling off for them to notice anything. :lol:

I would even go as far as to say that should a deer or small animal step in front at higher speeds "or even slower", the odds of being able to dodge and recover would be higher with the plate based on how I now feel about the responsiveness.
I for one, feel like I can dodge a dime on the road at 50mph.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rob_md @ Apr 22 2007, 02:03 AM) [snapback]427696[/snapback]</div>

I agree..... maybe the arguement comes from impressions people are trying to make it more than it is... but at the same time, the same intensity of arguement comes from the other side when people try to make it "less" than it is!

It is what it is... it works and assists in stabilization.. but its only "one" plate, not a complex system of bars and cushioned spacers etc.
I'm amazed it does as well as it does... it must be due to the strategic location it mounted to.

And its only 160.00.... well even less at this moment due to the sale!

And then the install doesn't take another 500.00 bucks to have it done or a degree in mechanics to install yourself.. its a 10 min job!

Why as humans do we expect and want so much for so little?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 22 2007, 07:04 AM) [snapback]427733[/snapback]</div>

I resemble that remark.

Actually at the end of March I noticed this strange thumping coming from the rear of the car. I wasn't in a position where I could stop, but when I did, I noticed one of the rear tires completely flat. It was ruined.

I had to replace my winter tires with the original Integrities early this year.

I'm going to have to decide next winter whether or not to just replace the bad tire, or replace the entire set with some new better winter tires. The other three tires only have two winters on them.

Anyway, I don't normally drive aggressively, and although it seems the BT plate made a difference I couldn't swear one way or another.

It is conceivable that there some other locations in the frame that would be more affected by the plate than where Allande made his measurements. I just don't know, and I don't have the time to investigate that now anyway.

Basically, each person just has to make his/her own decision. I've got the plate on, and I'm not about to remove it now. For me, the expensive wasn't that much. I've spent a lot more on other "toys" for my Prius.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Apr 21 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]427694[/snapback]</div>

You are assuming it actually does something. Without a blind test all we have are testimonials. The TV is chock-full of testimonials for stuff that has been shown not to work. So we really do not know whether a trained driver could tell the difference or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 22 2007, 07:04 AM) [snapback]427733[/snapback]</div>

Ha ha. That's why I figure the car doesn't need of it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 22 2007, 07:04 AM) [snapback]427733[/snapback]</div>

How you feel about a product, and how that product actually performs, are often two very different things. Now that we know the BT Plate does not actually stiffen the chassis, I think there's good reason to be skeptical.

Saying "I don't know how it works, but I just know it does," is meaningless. We were told it stiffens the chassis. We have been shown that it does not.

It's also a cop-out to say that drivers who think they feel a difference must be right because "they've driven it," but at the same time say that drivers who feel no difference must not be "in tune with their car," as WS says above. You can't have it both ways.

Allan has shown there is no stiffening, and he has provided documentation that shows that a static test is actually more indicative than a dynamic test. The only thing that remains to be done is a fair, blind test with a driver (or a few drivers) who think they can tell the difference. If, in multiple trials, they can reliably tell whether the BT Plate or the OEM plate is on the car, they'll have demonstrated that it makes a difference (presumably by some mysterious mechanism other than "stiffening.") If they cannot tell better than chance (50/50) then it's a placebo effect. (Note that I do not advocate driving the car without any plate, because the question at issue is not whether the car needs a plate, it is whether the BT Plate improves handling compared with the OEM plate.)

 

I have no reason to believe Alans test is reporting wrong.. but I also can't believe those sensors picked up all angles of consideration... seems it would need about 50 or 100 sensors to find the point of interest.

At any rate, if the human body can detect it when driving.. somethings going on... a test that was done with drivers with a known sensitivity to thier cars... such as race car drivers or similiar may be an interesting test... but not just anybody you put in the car.

We have not "proven" the plate does not work... we have only proven that Alans test didn't show any differences in reference to where and how the sensors were placed... and as already dicussed.. the car was not in motion under stress.

Can Alans test be taken out on the road and the results measured with a laptop while driving aggressively, and then over the same course without?... that would be more interesting.. and again, as discussed.. it would be very hard to precisely reproduce each run.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 21 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]427502[/snapback]</div>

Real testing, and very well done. That's what I like to see. However there seems to be a missing portion of the test, which also brings up an important question.

If there is no difference between no plate and a plate installed (whatever plate), then what is the plate for? This means that either 1) the plate serves no function at all, and Toyota might as well have left out the original plate, or 2) the test chose to measure the wrong deflections to expose the functionality of a plate bolted into that position.

The missing portion of the test is to see what the original plate does. If there is no difference between no plate and the original plate, then I would say that it is likely that the test performed is not the correct test. I doubt that Toyota would put a part in there that doesn't do anything. It would take more testing with a more diverse set of deflections to convince me that in fact the original plate does nothing at all. If you could show that, then shame on Toyota.

I thought that the point of all of this was to tell whether or not there is a difference between the original plate and the BT plate. That portion of the objective test was not done or at least not documented in the posting.

Let's call A the original plate, B the BT plate, and N for no plate. A test that shows either A - N is non-zero or B - N is non-zero, and A - N == B - N (where == here means statistically equivalent) would prove the case that the BT plate doesn't do anything with respect to that set of deflections. However A - N == 0 and B - N == 0 tells me nothing, or rather tells me that the test is the wrong test.

The quoted test showed only B - N == 0.

If another test measuring the same deflections shows A - N > 0, then that would show that the BT plate is worse than the original plate! However I suspect that the BT plate is not worse than the original plate, so I'll bet that the same testing will show that A - N == 0.

Unfortunately, I would have to discount this subjective part of the testing, since the tester actually believes that the Prius handled fine before. If the result was "The handling sucked with the old plate, and sucked about as much with the new plate", then that I could consider as a good subjective test point.

Of course, I'm not sure what I would do even with a large set of good subjective test points that were not double blind. But I do know that if I were to do a double blind test, I would start with drivers that could tell from the get go that the Prius handling sucks.

By the way, just out of curiosity, was the "handled fine before" with the original plate or no plate?

 

I'm willing to accept that the plate doesn't stiffen torsional stresses in a static test, but I'm not sure that this is a conclusive test. There are many other planes of motion that an object can move in, and even in a static test the frame may not have reached the threshold of forces at which the plate could have made a measurable difference.

Having just installed by BT plate, I will await the return of the I-5 crosswinds that made my stock Prius hard to steer, and then judge for myself how much of a difference it makes. That to me is more real than static tests.

P

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Free One @ Apr 22 2007, 10:11 AM) [snapback]427784[/snapback]</div>

FreeOne, After you try this BT plate out please let us know, I am interested in getting one if it works on freeway winds and crosswinds.
Thanks

craig

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priussoris @ Apr 22 2007, 10:47 AM) [snapback]427841[/snapback]</div>

+1. I too would be very curious to learn of the "after" results in cross-winds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Apr 22 2007, 07:52 AM) [snapback]427774[/snapback]</div>

Hello Madler

First, thank you for your recognition of my work. It was not easy to back up my words with action, but I did.
With all respect for your thinking, you are introducing an unnecessary variable to this situation to make it appear to be confusing. The simple question is "does the BT plate cause the effect which it claims, that of stiffening the chassis of the Prius?" Whether the OEM plate does or does not stiffen the chassis lacks relevence to that question.

If you look back at my post number 91 in this thread you will see that I did a very similar test with the OEM plate installed. It, also, made no difference in chassis stiffness. I did contact Toyota Customer Service with a question regarding the purpose of the OEM plate. Their reply (which was verbal) made no mention of it having anything to do with the handling of the car. They said it had something to do with stiffening the floor of the car for the traction battery which is installed above and near the tunnel. I have driven extensively with no plate installed and suffered no ill effects. Some have speculated that the OEM plate is installed to prevent the muffler from falling off the car. But there is no indication that the OEM plate has anything to do with handling or control of the car.

I say, again, that those who wish to be informed on this issue will benefit from reading my references. They go to the point and are good reading. The test I did duplicated the most extreme forces which the car will face without permanent damage. Real world experience involves much lower forces - MUCH LOWER forces. I repeat my challenge for anyone to repeat my test and/or to show me WITH EVIDENCE that my test is invalid. Although my measurement took place at the right rear, I was measuring the movement of the total chassis from neutral to total down. Of course, it can move from neutral to total up on the right. The same set of movements is also available on the left but is the same set of movements, just in reverse.

The other thing to keep in mind which may make it easier for some to visualize is that a TOTALLY stiff chassis would not droop at all if one corner was left unsupported as mine was in this test. The more stiffness, the less droop. In this case, there was no change in the amount of droop with the installation of the BT plate. Hence, it appears that there was no increase in chassis stiffness.

It is pretty clear.

 

Allan: since your tests concluded that the BT plate does not produce any improvement, please advise whether you would be willing to sell the one that you got (apparently for free) from BT Tech, thanks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Apr 22 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]427880[/snapback]</div>

Hey, now there is an idea! All those who have BT stiffening plates that don't want them, how about posting and those who want to buy a slightly used plate can respond. Excellent idea!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Apr 22 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]427880[/snapback]</div>

The shipping was free. I paid full price ($173 with the installation tool). Now they are on Sale!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Apr 22 2007, 03:40 PM) [snapback]427890[/snapback]</div>

Agreed, but they probably should post in the for sale forum, not on this thread. I did check that forum as far back as 4 months ago for used BT plates for sale and only found one post from someone who was selling, because they no longer owned their Prius (it was sold for $100 shipped)

I believe that Brian has a money back guarantee so I am not sure how many dissatisfied BT plate owners would be seeking to sell theirs at a discount?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 22 2007, 07:09 AM) [snapback]427733[/snapback]</div>

Why? It is about the product results vers the price point. For instance the ScanGauge2 I just purchased through a group purchase here is around the same price as the BT Plate, yet it is much more useful to me. To me that was a cost effective purchase. If the price point is right then the BT Plate might go over much better with most people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 22 2007, 08:26 AM) [snapback]427765[/snapback]</div>

Windy: Please actually read Allan's post. Then read the cited links. You will see that Allan did not use "sensors." He made measurements.

Please also note that Allan documented why the static test is more relevant than any dynamic test. And finally note, that, far from being more able to detect differences in handling, the human mind is subject to all sorts of tricks and illusions.

You really should read postings before replying to them. You make yourself look awfully foolish when you respond to Allan's measurements with talk about "sensors."

 

Here is a car with a really stiff chassis. Notice it is supported only at the left rear.