BT Tech Stiffening plate

Perhaps Scotty did overspeak about facts. Should I bring up how many times WindStrings has claimed facts that don't look like facts to the average person?

Brian, you are falling prey to the same conspiracy. There is NO one here trying to discredit anyone. There are PLENTY here who have questions about your plate, most of which you ignore when they come up. It's not insulting, it's normal. These are NOT people who have made up their mind. They are people TRYING to make up their mind, and they are not getting answers. They're getting attacked for questioning in the first place.

EDIT: please don't miss Scotty's response on the previous page, as I just started a new one...

 

Tyrin, I think that you have been around here long enough to know that if people are curious about the product and ask questions here, no one is going to jump on them or get attacked like you claim. Its when the same person asks the SAME questions over and over and over for months on end and people get tired of hearing it after responding politely again and again about the same question.

I personally do not know a single instance where anyone got verbally "attacked" for asking an honest bonafide question that was not answered time and time again.

There is plenty of information here on PC for one to determine if the BT plate is right for them. I have provided technical information about the product more times than I can remember.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 07:12 PM) [snapback]421711[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 04:12 PM) [snapback]421711[/snapback]</div>

Man, this is funny... there is a conspiracy, there isn't a conspiracy... make up your mind.

 

I've said this before on previous BT Plate related threads. My assessment of the plate started out from a fairly negative point of view. I was fairly unhappy with the somewhat "squirrelly" handling of my Prius under certain conditions. I read about the BT Plate and how it apparently solved the exact problem that I was encountering. I ordered the plate. There was a fairly long delay in shipping, during which time I started to read some of the negative threads (all from non-users) about how it couldn't possibly work. I started to get cold feet and was actually going to cancel my order when I found out that it had been shipped. When It arrived, I was considering sending it back without having installed it. I decided to try it before I returned it. BobZ (no longer a Prius owner) and I installed it at his house (he has the ramps). I immediately took the car to the spots where I knew I could repeat the stability problems that I had been having. My attitude was really negative. I didn't need it to work. Just the opposite, I knew it wasn't going to work because I had already heard the term "Placebo effect"

Well - guess what - I was fooled! It worked. The instability was 90% gone. If I really pushed the car, I could get it to come back mildly, but the handling instability, and rear end steering under bumpy and/or wind buffeting conditions was virtually gone. Frankly, I was shocked. Thats why I have been joining in on these endless BT threads. There is no one worse that the "converted".

By the way, for the benifit of some of you who take some of my "flat earth" similes seriously, almost all of my comments have been to lighten up the discourse a bit.

 

Thank you Syclone for your comments. Since according to your avatar you are a Long Island Prius Owner, were you present when Scotty had the meeting with the Toyota rep? Did you listen to their "facts" about the meeting and our BT stiffening plate?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Apr 11 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]421729[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Apr 11 2007, 06:33 PM) [snapback]421721[/snapback]</div>

Fine. I'm done. You've made it clear that you have no interest in making this information easy to find (i.e., answering new questions, posting a website, linking it to the store...). Others have made it clear they don't want any new testing done, even if someone were willing to do it. They'd rather get indignant should anyone dare to question, then lash out.

I have already quoted several examples of people getting attacked right on this current thread. New questions, sometimes even new questioners. Your supporters are doing it, and they are giving you and your product a bad name in my book. Because of the attitudes, and the lack of answers to questions, you have definitely lost at least one customer. I believe your product may actually work as promised, but I will never do business with someone who can't be bothered to answer questions. From the other posters here, I doubt I'm alone in that position.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Apr 11 2007, 07:58 PM) [snapback]421736[/snapback]</div>

Brian,
Syclone wasn't at the meeting, but others were. Wayne (FireEngineer, another PC member)'s car was put on the lift for the Toyota engineer and technical adviser to look at. If you go to the link I posted before, http://www.lipog.org/huntington_clinic_4407.htm, you can see I'm not the only one there. If confirmation is needed, you can contact any one of the LIPOG members or Wayne himself.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 11 2007, 07:10 PM) [snapback]421708[/snapback]</div>

Again, Brain, do you have comment to my question above?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 11 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]421767[/snapback]</div>

Well, I'm pretty sure Brian has gone through that whole thing before. Again, what are the techinician's qualifications? Sure, he fixed an ECU. He may be an electronics guy. I can fix computer problems with my eyes closed, but that doesn't mean i can code to save my life? Well, I should be able to, right? I can fix them, right? I should be able to write the next operating system and give Bill a bitch-slap! What qualifies him to make a definitive analysis on that area of the car? He made a statement, you ate it up. With all this controversy surrounding the plate, you'd think a test drive would be in order to back up his claims. This is no better than BobZ's assessment, he was a qualified GM "technician" LOL. If I was Brian, with all the experience I have, I'd just scoff and ignore that "technician's" assessment.

 

Presto,
I'm saying that the two independent sources, PC members and the Toyota engineer (not technician), came to the same conclusion. While the engineer's opinion having the most creditability. Like I said before, we can arrange a test drive with them if they are willing to next time we meet. What I'm getting at is, if we can quantify the positive effect of the BT plate and show it to Toyota, we might be able to have them improve handling of the next Prius with this. I hate to repeat again, Toyota make many many production changes from customer feedback. If we tell them we "feel" the BT plate make the car handles better, what are the chances that they will accept it?

Presto, you are the one who said we can always make things better. Don't we all want to make the next Prius better?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Apr 11 2007, 07:58 PM) [snapback]421736[/snapback]</div>

Unfortunately, I missed the meeting at Stevens Toyota. Had I been there, I would have pursued the question further.

 

I was at the meeting at the Toyota Service Center. I brought up the topic and asked his view on the effectiveness of the plate. He was not familiar with the plate and he had Wayne's Prius put on a lift to see it. His immediate OPINION was that because of the location of the plate, and the fact that it not being tied into the structural members of the body, that IN HIS OPINION it would have minimal, if any, effect on the handling of the car. He did point out several locations that he felt would be better suited for structural stiffening that would make a bigger difference (the structural rails on either side of the car and towards the front of the chassis).

He did not scoff at the idea that this plate was in use. It was explained to him that there are many drivers who have installed the plate and they insist that there is a noticable difference in the handling. This topic was persued for at least 30 minutes of the meeting. Several LIPOG members spoke during this discussion and we finally moved on to other topics. The horse was already beaten by the time we moved on.

At the next meeting with this engineer (no, I don't know what his "specialty in engineering" is) I will ask if he would write up incident reports that he could send to the design engineers in CA to get their response. One report would be from a car that has not had the plate installed and would question if the plate would improve handling, and a second report would be from a car (Syclone?) that has the plate installed and comments on how much the handling has improved.

I have personally been staying out of this debate on PC because I am totally convinced that the people who see a difference with the plate installed are dedicated to their stance, and those who do not see how the plate could make any difference are just as adamant. Good luck to both sides.
(So far 351 replies to this thread, and this should generate at least another 100!)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 11 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]421789[/snapback]</div>

Wait... are you trying to say you want to see the plate work? I think that's what we would all like, an opinion with hands-on experience. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Toyota knows about the plate area already. The car handles just fine without it. Why spend more money when it's already working fine for the majority of the Prius owners?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 11 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]421708[/snapback]</div>

I've been intrigued (and amused here and there) by this whole conversation. I don't own the plate (yet), but from what I've read I believe the effect is probably real, and therefore, measurable. So, how do we measure it?

How about this idea for a test that could probably be performed by most of us "amateurs"?
(I'm actually being serious here, after my attempt at some brief humor last night.)

The Toyota rep said the OEM plate wasn't necessary (you have to admit, that is kind of a curious statement - if it's there, it probably has a function). But since he said you could drive it without any plate in place, it should be safe to do the following test:

Set up a simple course with cones in a parking lot, that we are confident can be driven under repeatable conditons.

The car will be tested under 3 conditions:
A.) No plate
B.) OEM plate
C.) BT plate

In order to obtain a quantifiable response to driving conditions, we make a fixture that can mount across the location that the plate spans, in close proximity to the plate. The fixture is designed so that a simple force gauge (of the type that are available for high school Physics labs) measures the force being exerted between the 2 members across the span. These force gauges are readily interfaced to laptop computers with software that can monitor force vs. time. The car is driven through the course multiple times for each of conditions A, B, and C above. In this way, repeatability under the same condition can be quantified. And, the response due to the presence and type of plate can also be quantified.

If the plate is really doing anything, this is where you'd measure it. I hate to speculate, but my guess is that if someone performs this experiment, they will measure real quantifyable differences in force for each of the cases. It would be best for multiple folks to perform the experiment and post their results. I imagine we might see a good deal of variability between different executions. But, if the results from multiple experiments lead to the same conclusion, that would be meaningful.

What do you say? - Perhaps something we could pursue at an upcoming LIPOG meet?

 

I may regret it, but I'm gonna risk joining the fray. I will do my best to refrain from insulting anyone's manhood or intelligence, and just throw out a few observations.

The original plate is there for a reason. Why would Toyota go to the time and trouble? It kinda looks like an afterthought to me, and leads me to suspect the initial road testing revealed some problems, though of course this is pure speculation on my part.

On a frameless, 'unibody', monocoque chassis, there's no such thing as 'non structural'. Everything from thicker sheet metal to a full roll cage will affect chassis stiffness. A small part in the right place can make a big difference.

The only idea that has any hope of ending this acrimonious debate is a full test. Find three cars as similar as possible, put a BT plate in one and remove the stock plate from the other, and round up some willing participants in a big empty parking lot.

 

Here is a non-engineering way to evaluate the relative merit of the BT Tech Stiffening Plate's "non-structural" mounting point - if Toyota didn't believe that there was a need for a stiffening plate, they would not have provided one (albeit one that is less robust than the BT Tech plate). Toyota is not in business to put superfluous hardware onto their cars. Even at a manufacturing cost of say, $2.00 per oem plate, that is real money that could have gone to profit on the car. Conclusion: The plate performs some function, even if it is not truly a structural function (although the jury is definitely out on this issue). Now the question is whether a stronger plate provides a "better" solution. I wonder how many more pages until there is a consensus?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 06:00 PM) [snapback]421703[/snapback]</div>

Common Tyrin... surely you realize its not what you do in life that really has meaning.. its "why" you do it that really reflects the intents and state of the heart to reflects good will verses malicious intent.

If you bring your wife roses or give someone a present.... the why is more important than the what if you have any substance at all.

If you buy a plate to examine its functionality and use it is one thing , its quite another to purchase it for the intent to "not" use it, but rather as a tool to discredit and decieve.

You can't see the difference?....

People only wanted him to buy the plate if he was going to be "honest" in what he did with it... but like I tried to tell him... his "credibility" is now in question... . and you act surprised now that people question his motives?.......

Seems you don't catch on too quick even though they are repeated numerous times and you only hear what you want and twist the rest to match your arguement.

How can you see anything objectively if you behave this way?

I think it comes with the same weakness you have about "not" believing anything anybody says... for some reason you mistrust everybody and automatically assume people are lying or at best decieved if it disagrees with your understanding???

How much have you already missed out on in life because you "prejudged" it in advance?

and why can't you believe the report of someone that disagrees with your understanding on the matter?

Lets see..... "hundreds like the plate"... how many more would it take to convince you?

Maybe the "few" that say there is no improvement are the ones that are brainwashed?

I think its silly to assume people are mass hypnotized anyway.... hey, maybe Brian should tell everybody they are really "silver bars" he is letting go for cheap and we will all believe that too?

You really insult everyones intelligence to hold your own as superior to so many others.

We are not country idiots, but most of us are educated professionals that most likely make more money than you and have more education....and maybe more age and wisdom..... so where do you come off with so much pride anyway to set your opinion as superior above so many others anyway?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 11 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]421860[/snapback]</div>

Keep up the insults, you're so good at them. :lol:

I never claimed I was smarter, more educated, or more knowledgeable, unlike you. I wouldn't want to embarrass you with my education vs. yours (especially after seeing your spelling abilities).

I also haven't formed an opinion, except that I won't do business with someone who can't be bothered to answer questions and lets others slam the questioners.

I love how you can keep hitting the same arguments over and over even when no one is arguing with you! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Apr 11 2007, 06:42 PM) [snapback]421729[/snapback]</div>

Wow!.....Let me get this straight.... you are part of the long Island bunch that are really negative and you actually installed the plate and was delighted to find it countered your expectations that it would be bad or of no effect?
Am I right so far?

What puzzles me is... its one thing is the long Island bunch doesn't believe all of us, but its quite another if they won't believe one of thier own?
Am I still right?

So now that you have the plate and feel it removed 90% of your instability.... is your understanding of "why" it works any better now or just the fact that it works?

In other words... for the sake of your friends... now that you are a convert... what could you possibly say that would convince them?... buy the plate and try it for themselves?

At least you have the courage and were not so cheap as to criticize something you didn't know about or understand without trying it yourself.... now if your friends could just muster up the same courage to face thier little fear.

This reminds me of being afraid to dive into the deep end off a high diving board... one tries it and sees its not so bad, then tries to convince the others.. but they are still afraid!....

Well way to go Syclone!.... my hats off to you!.....for going against the crowd and following your own instincts.
How many people do we have today following thier peers into disaster and missing out on the true things in life.... Where are those that think for themselves rather than only take cues from the cult leader?

Did I miss something here, or does this size up things in your book too?

I want to be open minded as possible and try to see what you saw from the other side!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danatt @ Apr 11 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]421810[/snapback]</div>

I'd welcome the feedback from such a test. But, I'm not sure that would solve all the issues. First of all, this is not a sports car. I don't really want my car to corner better. My only complaint to date is the need for improvement in steering on the freeway in windy conditions and the way the car feels wishy-washy during freeway trips. I've no complaints around town or short freeway stints. I have no idea how you would test for improvement in that area, but it would probably cost 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars for test equipment and testing. I really think Toyota should do this testing, as I don't find the car enjoyable to ride on the freeway. It might be a problem they could solve easily, like installing a few frame stiffeners. Then again, it might be a problem caused by the high roofline and low chassis weight needed to achieve the MPG ratings this car is getting. And maybe I shouldn't expect this car to handle like a non-hybrid car.

Regardless, until that time in the future when Toyota fixes their car, I am going to try the plate. I am impressed that the BT plate has been developed, and it makes sense to me that it will help, even if it doesn't fasten all the way to the heavier structural parts of the frame. As someone else mentioned, I like the spirit of people finding an issue and trying to solve it themselves until a better solution comes along. There's enough positive opinions on this site for me to feel it has a better that 50% chance of working, and that's enough for me to shell out $165. I don't know you Brian, but I do appreciate people like you getting involved, helping find a fix, and taking the heat. Cheers. B)