BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 9 2007, 08:39 PM) [snapback]420531[/snapback]</div>

Darrell.. again.. I'm not referring to you.. except the part that if you can come up with a test..thats really infallible, it may be worth something....

I know you have the plate and have had it for some time now.....

I know you've already read the post explaining the U horseshoe shape in the rear end which envelopes around the muffler assembly with seems to be very unstable without support.

The support Toyota provided takes care of most of the need for normal driving, but doesn't really take care of the upward and downward flex that happens on uneven road surfaces, twist etc etc.....
I know you've read all this before and already know what I'm talking about.

I tried to make it clear when I responded from your post I was simply using it as a springboard to address other issues made by other posters too......

I have always appreciated your viewpoint on things.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(boutime @ Apr 9 2007, 09:11 PM) [snapback]420538[/snapback]</div>

Welcome Allan,... I'm astonished at the common sense you seem to possess that seems to elude and get clouded by some who are so smart they can't see the obvious!... LOL!....... way to go!

Thanks for bringing some very simple sense to the whole discussion!...I guess it takes a physics degree to not be able to see the obvious!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]420358[/snapback]</div>

Certainly not. Not that you would care, but you've lost my respect for any opinions you have with your attitude.

I know some of the other Plate supporters have been trying to be even-handed about the subject, although I agree with Daniel that Allannde got flamed unnecessarily. And what you never seem to get is that NO ONE is impressed by a pissed off or put-down response. The more I hear of how Allannde is being unfair/high & mighty/creating a setup, the less I trust and respect any of the rest of you and your responses (including Evan, Presto, Bill, and of course WS). And don't give me the line that Brian doesn't have time to respond to these questions, since he responds positively every time someone buys his plate and posts here!

If there were "plenty of information" as Evan suggests, it should be compiled, organized, and placed in one place, like the non-existent BT website. I agree that maybe Brian can't afford to do a series of scientifically rigorous tests for such a small market. But a simple website...that takes maybe $100 tops and a few hours. I've done it. It would be a place where Brian could collect all the testimonials, different tests PC users have done, etc.

Alternatively, Danny could make a sticky with the most important info right here on the PC site, and link it to/from the store. Just reading this one thread can take hours, let alone the many many other plate threads. If you feel that you should have to read all that to buy a plate, then fine, but it will always limit sales.

 

Hi All,

To be perfectly honest, I have always had the impression that the high churchmen of this thread were expousing the High Holy Faith of PLACEBO! .

As people have pointed out, the only people who have stuck to this point of view have been those that have not tried the plate. And then said that the people that changed their opinions were victims of PLACEBO! by definition. Seems a little too neat to me to be true.

Its not possible to have a plate on one's car and forever have one's opinion invalidated. Seems religious to me. As to Darelldd's wife, I think I will stick with Brian's track drivers' opinion. Although, some people might want to see a written affidavit.

While Placebo is a valid medical phenomena, this is not medicine. We are not dealing with the sympathetic response of the nervous system here. Just a little inner ear and rear end sensation. Besides, not drivings one's car into a the next lane when a wind-gust hits. Pretty simple. Besides the sample size is much larger, and more positive than when the High Holly Faith of PLACEBO! was first uttered.

I hope somebody can do a CAE (Computer Aided Engineering), or measurement that gets to the intimate detail of this issue. A CAE model will need the material properties, and a drawing for each of the spot bonded metal shells that make up the Prius chasis, and locations of the spot welds. Besides the rubber mount details, and rear axle details.

Allande showed some twist with his pictures. But it was smaller than I expected. But then, I really do not know how much is needed to make a big handling tweak. I do not have the background.

As some may know many aero-dynamic cars have been criticized for handling in cross-wind conditions over the many many many years. At first I thought this was the case with the Prius. But my experience with the plate is that the car rolls, but tracks straight.

The aerodynamic situation was due to the Cp (centroid of pressure) being farther forward, and close, or even in front of the Cg (centroid of gravity). This was the reason for the centerline fins in some 1950's racing aero cars. To pull the Cp back, as they had bulbus nozes and long low tails.

I was thinking the Cp in the Prius was actually the reverse. So when a wind gust hits it would steer the car into the wind radically. In which case rather than a fin on the tail, a fin down the center of the hood might be needed. But not now.

The other possibility rather than aero effects on aero cars, is the structural effects of the aero design and on the Prius the utility features. Long sweeping sheet metal flexes easy. Creased rectangular sheet metal is stiff, but has a high drag coefficient. This makes the most sense to me with the Prius. Because of the maximisation of the Hatchback there is a big hole in the chasis. Look at where the C pilar attaches to the roof.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(boutime @ Apr 9 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]420538[/snapback]</div>

Maybe surprisingly, I *do* have a degree in physics. But not in automotive engineering. I can appreciate how a stiffer chassis allows the suspension to perform better. Builders of high performance cars spend lots of money in this area. I am trying to figure out how a plate in this position creates a significantly stiffer chassis. I have no idea what the factory strap was meant to do, or why a stiffer one does it better. If you're amazed at my question, are you equally amazed that there has been no answer? There is something interesting going on here. I just can't figure out what it is.

I bolted a trailer hitch to structural members at the rear of the car. Tied them together WAY more stiffly than how it came from the factory. And yet I can detect no handling difference, nor have I heard anybody else with a trailer hitch claim improved handling. Did the Toyota engineers find this perfect spot in the floor sheetmetal to tie together - but failed to do it properly?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 09:13 AM) [snapback]420255[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure what you mean by an "infallible" test. The results of any test should be viewed with skepticism.

While measuring changes in ride quality would be a challenge, it would not be difficult to set up a test that would quantify any effect (positive or negative) of the BT Plate on handling.

For instance, you could set up a course like those used in autocross competitions. An objective observer and an objective driver (i.e., people who have no vested interest in the outcome) would conduct the test. A stock Prius would be driven as quickly as possible through the course. The average time of several runs would be calculated. The same thing would be done with the BT Plate installed. Obviously, you would need to control for as many other variables as possible that could affect the results, so you would want to have the runs done with the same car, the same driver, under the same weather conditions, etc., etc. Ideally, you would do a double-blind test, with neither the timer nor the driver knowing whether the stock plate or the BT Plate was on the car.

If a test like this showed that the BT Plate improved the handling of the Prius, the degree of improvement (e.g., 1% vs 10%) would help people to make an informed purchasing decision.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]420557[/snapback]</div>

Ah. Sorry. I was confused. I appreciate the clarity and civility.

I think I'm done here guys. I enjoyed my life better when I avoided these threads, so I think I'll go climb back under my rock. Somebody drop me a line if anything interesting happens! Ta.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 9 2007, 10:08 PM) [snapback]420565[/snapback]</div>

If you have no attitude, you have no reason for living!.... wheres your passion about anything.. do you believe in anything at all, or is everything the middle of the road and grey?

Where is your zeal, your drive, your reason for getting up in the morning.... are you dead already?

I have more respect for someone who really believes in the life he lives and be wrong than to just live.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 9 2007, 10:56 PM) [snapback]420607[/snapback]</div>

Excellent question!.. I've trying to figure whats up with them myself..its just a matter of time!.... surely they aren't that cheap to hold back a piece of metal?..

This is a question that has baffled me too... I'm sure Brian realizes this little venture may have an end at any time... but he's filling in the gap till that happens!

It's americans like Brian who has made amercia great...... the big companies don't always catch it all...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 11:54 PM) [snapback]420681[/snapback]</div>

I would have to go with cost being the factor. A few bucks here and there equates to a lot of money with the number of Prius out there. Money is quite often the factor for design choices. Another example would be the tires. They suck. It's only a few bucks more for some far better quality treads, but it's all about maximizing profit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JayGoldstein @ Apr 9 2007, 10:58 PM) [snapback]420608[/snapback]</div>

Welcome to the forum Jay... I'm sure someone could pose a pretty convincing test if they really want to put forth the effort.. but the problem in the past has been that the very people who raise the biggest stink about it being bunk and bogus are also the ones who are so cheap that they won't even buy the plate in the first place to test it?

The reason I mentioned a challenge for an "infallible" test is because just like in any team, company or endeavor, its easy for people to jump up and present problems.. but few want to pay the price to present a solution.

Its easy to shoot holes in anything.. but who wants to make a bulletproof test that cannot be argued?

I'm just tired of hearing the constant drizzle and dribble of reasons why its can't possibly work from people who won't even buy it so they can make an informed opinion.

Brian has mentioned the hesitancy to expend tons of money on such a simple device that is very cheap just to have people shoot holes in it anyway?
If it were your company.. would you honestly go to the trouble?

No matter what you do.. what course you create.... some people just can't be convinced and have an unbelieving heart that cannot believe anything.... those are the ones that think we never went to the moon! LOL!

You can spend 10000.00 on a test and people will come out here asking you what type of terrain did you use, what was it made of, what was the temperature, what was the humidity.. had it rained recently?...
Was the driver certified as a precision driver? Just when and where were each turn initiated and for how long and to what degree was the turn times the time of exposure, was the road perfectly flat or uneven like most roads? were the corners banked? was there any dust on the pavement at all? how old were the tires and what type?.. on and on and on.... the bottom line is..... does it make you feel more stable when you drive it?..... Well the fearmongers will never know.

Even a doubleblind study has its flaws based on "who" is the driver, are they attentive to the rhythms of the car?.. would they really notice even if you took one of the wheels off and replaced it with a spare tire and didn't tell them? LOL!

Some people just aren't very sensitive and others are.

There is nothing wrong in selling a beautiful piece of machined anodized aluminum for 165.00... Your getting your moneys worth no matter what.... heck it's worth it just to put it on your mantle piece its so beautiful!.... let alone what it will do for your prius! LOL!

I understand some people want to know what to expect before they buy as do we all... but everyone drives different, some mild, some aggressive, we live in different terrains, weather and climates...... I guess there is an element of chance to this purchase for those who won't believe the reports of hundreds before them.

Prius Chat has always been very excellent at exposing bogus snake oil for sale.... there are vortex accelerators, gas savers of all types, you name it and PC has saved hundreds from the headache of buying bogus and over-exaggerated over-hyped and over-advertized stuff.

I'm sorry if hundreds vouch for this plate and others still can't take a chance.....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 10 2007, 02:07 AM) [snapback]420687[/snapback]</div>

Good point.. they aren't into making it a sports car with a family car price... it already does a fine job at being a family car without the plate!

 

The Long Island Prius Owners Group (LIPOG) had a meeting early this month with Toyota factory reps (a technical adviser and a service engineer), dealership service director, parts manager, and their in-house Prius tech. The meeting was hosted by Huntington Toyota.

This event is documented on the LIPOG website, http://www.lipog.org/huntington_clinic_4407.htm

Since the debate about the BT plate is such a hot topic on PC, we go ahead and have the Toyota reps look at it. Wayne (FireEngineer) was able to join us all the way from Chicago, and he has the BT plate installed. They put his car on the lift. After the Toyota reps look at the plate, here's what they've concluded,

I hope our group's experience can shed some light to this topic. I believe this information should be included to the PriusChat shop so people can make a more informed decision.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 11:57 AM) [snapback]420872[/snapback]</div>

Guess the Toyota engineers don't have religion. :lol:
Seriously, though, there are two responses to this. One is that the guy doesn't know what he's talking about (which would be unlikely for a tech adviser and service engineer, but possible). The other is that he may have a point. If the brace points are not part of the main frame structure, then the benefit would be small or nil.

Thank you for once again proving your rudeness by attacking me, and ignoring the rest of the questions in my post. There's plenty that I believe in, including civility, honesty, and peace. I'm sorry I don't follow your blind faith about the plate. There are thousands of people claiming that they have personally experienced Jesus Christ as well, but that doesn't make me assume it must be true (after all, there are just as many espousing other religions, so either way, there is definitely mass delusion going on).

Now you'll say I'm bashing religion, but I'm not. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Disagreeing does not mean that I don't respect your position. There is a lot of good in religion, and I think the world could possibly be worse off without it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]420872[/snapback]</div>

Sorry to be jumping in the middle here, but I didn't see where this part of the thread actually started.

But, if the quote about driving the Prius without the OEM plate not mattering, then why did they waste the money to install it? THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME AT ALL. Sorry for shouting.

I don't have strong positive or negative feelings about the plate, except subjectively it does seem to help give better control. I still haven't had an alignment done, and I've driven in strong cross winds with the plate without control problems. The only time it feels like I have any control problems is when encountering ruts in the highway. I've had the same problem with other cars though.

Dave M.

 

So with just a visual inspection, he was able to conclude that the plate can't work? Did he take the car out for a spin or was it merely left at that? Was it BobZ that looked at it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 10 2007, 02:07 PM) [snapback]420910[/snapback]</div>

Presto, the engineer concluded that the plate is not effective because it is connected to the non-structural part of the car. Just like when you attach something to non-structural part of an airplane, given that "something" doesn't change the center of gravity, you don't need to re-test the airplane's airworthiness.

No, he was not BobZ... BobZ hasn't come to our meetings after he traded in his Prius. The engineer is the gentleman in the middle with blue tie and the technical adviser is the gentleman to the left of him (our left), http://www.lipog.org/4_3_1.jpg

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Apr 10 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]420907[/snapback]</div>

Dave, that's a good question! We can certainly ask them next time we meet. I'm just sharing their input, not inventing anything here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 11:25 AM) [snapback]420918[/snapback]</div>

Good to see another point of view, but it is just another opinion. In the end, he's just another person that says it can't work, but didn't actually try it, and then we're back to the same starting place.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 10 2007, 11:31 AM) [snapback]420924[/snapback]</div>

Actually, we'd probably have to have someone talk to the engineer who decided the OEM plated belonged where it did.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 11:57 AM) [snapback]420872[/snapback]</div>

I used to live in the mountains in Washington State and had a road behind my house that had a 66% grade.. I had two engineers tell my all the reasons it would be impossible to drive up that step of a road... I proceeded to show them with my 4X4 Chevy Luv that had a 6 inch lift kit while it was mildly wet!

Again we have a situation of mere "opinions" by looking alone..... did they install the plate and try it?

It appears they did all thier diagnosis without even touching it while it was lifted off the ground on a lift?
Why is this supposed to be a reputable test?... because they are engineers?

Wayne "the Fire engineer" is the only one that had one installed... did they log what "he" thought.. or just the guys that peered at it from underneath?
I guess no one was interested in the comments of the guy that actually used it eh?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 10 2007, 12:44 PM) [snapback]420896[/snapback]</div>

This is what I am bashing... you finally told your true heart on the matter..... "definitely".. really? where is your proof?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Apr 10 2007, 02:30 PM) [snapback]420955[/snapback]</div>

Exactly... apparently the two engineers don't agree.... one just looked at it and the other I guess just popped it on cause it looked good?

Of course.... engineers are often like doctors and rarely agree completely on anything. Seems the more people know and the more educated they are, the harder it is to see the obvious or at least all see the same thing!

Did the rocket scientist that said the plate did nothing at all "even the stock one" try driving it with no plate at all and then putting on the BT plate or was that beneath his technical dignity to do such a simple test?

 

WS,
Like I mentioned before, they concluded that the plate is attached to non-structural part of the car. So anything attach to it won't affect the handling of the car. That's the reason that they didn't need to take a test drive.

If someone is able to show any positive test result of the BT plate, we would love to show them next time we meet again.

 

I hate to break the news to some of you but these Totyota "reps" are usually nothing more than customer service people that act as a liazon between problem customers and the dealers. They are certainly not trained engineers or experts in anything other than trying to make customers happy or answering questions that the dealer can not answer to a customers likiing.

I say this because a close friend of mine was a Honda factory service rep for 20 years and I knew more about cars then he ever did. We often joked about his lack of knowledge and he told me it was just the appearance that mattered!

Back to the topic of whether the BT plate works or not I can not believe how much press or bandwith this subject has taken. I bought one for my Prius and am still thrilled with how much this part helped my car. I did not need to take a course in physics to undertand how it works. I also did not find the need to put the original plate back on the car as I could tell right away when driving my usual route the differences in handling and the ride that the BT plate made. It was the best money that I have spent on my car.

Ken

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]420971[/snapback]</div>

But then how does that prove anything? It is their word against Brian's. Brian has had great experience in that area of the car, and has done a great deal of testing. Then there is his past experience with the Corvettes. What is the Toyota tech's experience/qualification? A piece of paper saying he's a certified Toyota Prius tech just won't cut it. He had no hand in designing this vehicle, his statement is just another opinion which is as good as anything else in this thread... Actually, it's on the same side of the camp of people who 'know' the plate can't work, but have done everything but try it.