BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Apr 8 2007, 03:41 PM) [snapback]419965[/snapback]</div>

I got mesmerized as well! It seems a shame to hide such a beautiful thing from the eyes of the world, but it will serve a much greater purpose than just lookin' good!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Apr 8 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]419913[/snapback]</div>

Interesting idea. I was thinking about PVDF as a substitute for stainless. Do you have any source for a roll of the stuff? I tried CS Hyde, but they only carry 24 inch wide sheets. I guess I could get a single 12inchx24inch sheet and cut it down. However, if you know of a source for rolls, that would be better.

 

I stumbled across this thread a while back, and it's taken me some time to read through it. I remember when the BT plate was first discussed on PC. Back then, I seem to remember the two viewpoints being: 1. "I kind of think it helps a bit" and 2. "I don't see much difference."

Now suddenly it's turned into a religious war, so much so that I really expected to see Windstrings quoting the Bible to prove that the key to the eternal salvation of your soul is belief in the BT Stiffening Plate.

I see Allan, who I know to be an honest seeker of knowledge, excoriated for asking for hard data and explanations, and accused of practically being in league with al Qaeda for not accepting the Plate on faith; and I see complete silence when Darell asks how the Plate does what it is supposed to do.

I couldn't care less if the thing works or not. I have no intention of getting one. But I am curious about it. I gather that making the chassis stiffer is supposed to improve handling. But it seems to me that the way to make the chassis stiffer would be to install triangular bracing in the form of a rigid X inside a rigid square connecting the four corners of the car. This very narrow plate that just connects the two sides of the car seems unlikely to actually produce any real stiffening. It's just too narrow to resist twisting by the car's frame.

Someone posted somewhere above that now that he's got the Plate, he can take corners at 20 mph. I've been taking corners at 20 mph ever since I got my Prius. Maybe a passing Pentacostal preacher, on a whim, blessed my car, miraculously stuffening it, when it was new, because he'd never seen one before and thought it was the car Jesus would drive?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 8 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]419898[/snapback]</div>

Sorry.. Darrell... my statements were never directed at you as I assumed you have already bought the plate and made your own test to your own satisfaction.
I have allot of respect for what you've done for PC and all the accomplishments you've done for your car as well as others.

Yes, it would be nice to be able to convince someone before purchase but no one seems to be able thus far to pull off a way to do that..... my only beef to this point has not been with "anyone" who has attempted to take the plate and make any kind of definitive test with it.... its more with those who have never touched the plate making accusations its all bunk as if they have some ground to stand on?

I don't think I'm wrong in saying that most don't have a problem being skeptical and doubting all you or anyone wants... but its not fair to try and then try and defame anyones findings who has actually owned the plate against facts that are just made up out of thin air from fears and speculations because of no hard paper evidence against those who do not own the plate.

I'm sorry I'm not being clear here... I feel like I've explained my point about 10 times now.. but I still see misunderstanding... its almost like people are only hearing what they want to hear from what I say... and yes, that would make me feel they must have a chip on thier shoulder to keep misinterpreting my statements so regularly.

Its very simple for anyone to grasp and read... don't put down something you don't understand.

And if someone wants to understand it more.. it would certainly help to buy the plate so they first have something to play don't you think?... how can someone understand what a cheese pizza taste like if they are first afraid to even buy it for peets sake?.... Whats so confusing about this and why am I still being misunderstood?.... Are people just trying to be argumentative for the sake of being contrary?.....

Although I don't agree with much of what allannde says... Thus far I have at least given him credit for being more than a mere troll... and I wrong here???

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Apr 8 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]419965[/snapback]</div>

Welcome to the forum Madler..... Its quite interesting that several have compared this to a religious misunderstanding.. because it has many parallels indeed.

You have an "experience" that one group swear buy contrasted by arguements from another crowd that has never allowed themselves to yet be exposed to that same 'experience", yet they want to argue why its bunk.

The first crowd says "why can't you have a little faith and believe what so many others have sworn by"... while the second crowd says " I cannot believe or trust in anything until I understand and have full assurance of its authenticity first".

No matter what topic you pick.. the same two crowds struggle.... one can believe and step out, the other is paralysed by fear and past woundings.

The first crowd calls it childlike faith, the second crowd calls it foolish presumption.

The first crowd experiences all the richness of life, whereas the second crowd is trapped in an egg that hides them from anything unsafe or chances pain.

Sounds like religion indeed! :lol:

 

Hi Apriusfan,

Hmm. Not sure where they get it. Its commonly used to cover unpopulated through-hole component holes in printed circuit boards so that they do not wick up solder from the solder wave.

Just did a google, and it brought up CS Hyde web page. Kynar is one name trades name for PVDF. Check out these web-pages:

http://www.cshyde.com/tapecat.htm

http://cshyde.thomasnet.com/viewitems/tape...?&forward=1



Although, looking at the pictures, I may have used Kapton instead. Check out:

http://cshyde.thomasnet.com/viewitems/tape...?&forward=1

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 9 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]420289[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 9 2005, 07:27 PM) [snapback]138843[/snapback]</div>

Gotta love the search button The thread in which efusco's message was taken from is one of the earlier BT plate threads. There's quite a few different names in there that haven't posted in this thread, and it didn't dissolve into something like this thread. Every one of them loved the plate, BTW.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 05:26 PM) [snapback]420021[/snapback]</div>

The echo is almost deafening.

 

For those looking for a description on what the plate does. Here is a short, general post from Brian:

Also a bit more info in this post:

Allande asks about a double blind test to which Brian responded:

And in August, last year I found this testomonial post from Brian:

And here's a good laugh, it looks like that post was in response to Allande's statement. Here's the bit:

 

The Church of the Stiffening Plate
Some pay to be part of this fate
Opinions do differ
Whose chassis is stiffer?
This plate sure does stiffen the hate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lowlander @ Apr 9 2007, 06:05 AM) [snapback]420178[/snapback]</div>

Speaking of Churches....


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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 9 2007, 03:31 AM) [snapback]420171[/snapback]</div>

Wow... no kiddin?... have you not been reading these posts?... This is indeed starting to sound religious.... I guess all the ways that have already been explained were not what you were looking for?

Sorry it takes so much to overcome the fears of 165.00 bucks!... just buy the plate and do your own tests???

Its already been explained over and over how much it cost to do a test that cannot be shot full of holes in the first 10 minutes?

Darrell if you can come up with one.... maybe Brian would gladly pay you for it?

Lets see who can come up with an infallible test out here that will not be shot full of holes the first 10 minutes its presented!.. If so.... I will be the first to commend him and praise him for his ingenuity and skill to do so!

Any one up for the challenge?

That includes you too Allannde, if your test is infallible, it won't matter how biased you are one way or another... it will be bulletproof!

How about Daniel... are you up for the challenge?

Let's listen to the silence now!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 08:13 AM) [snapback]420255[/snapback]</div>

Why should I send money to someone for a product that claims it will improve my car, when I'm happy with my car as it is. (Except that it burns gas. But I don't think the plate will change that.)

Lotteries, snake-oil salesmen, and televangelists all tell me I should give them my money. "You can't win if you don't buy a ticket." (Never mind that I won't win even if I do buy a ticket.) Snake-oil salesmen insist I cannot hold an opinion that their product is worthless if I don't try it. And of course the televangelists insist that I'll go to heaven if I send them money.

But the point is, I don't care whether the Plate works or not. If you like having it on your car, that's great. If you like having it, it's worth it to you. I have some works of art that serve no other purpose than that they give me pleasure. But just because you like a painting does not mean that I should buy it from you and put it on my wall. Different strokes for different folks. You like your Plate. I like my art collection.

I'm reminded of kids who will do really stupid things just because someone said "I dare you." I never accepted dares. And while I'll generally accept a challenge to a game of chess (time permitting) I decline most other kinds of challenges, because they do not interest me. Your "challenge" to me to send off $165 dollars for a device I don't want, sounds like a kid challenging another to jump off the high board into a pool. If you enjoy that sort of thing, do it! But it's silly to do it just because someone "challenged" you.

On the other hand, Allan has ordered one, and I'll be very interested to see his report. He will actually measure the change in stiffness of the chassis (something I've not seen reported on yet) and since I know him to be an impartial, intelligent, and scientific-minded person, his impressions will mean more to me than those of people I do not know. (Some of you, without knowing him, have accused him of just trying to knock down the Plate. But I do know him. And I know him to be skeptical but openminded. And I know he will report his findings honestly.)

So, challenge away, Windy. Challenge all you like. But I'm reminded of a farmers' saying, back when I worked as a farm hand: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." My Prius ain't broke.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 9 2007, 08:33 AM) [snapback]420273[/snapback]</div>

Evan, you posted while I was writing, so I didn't see your post before posting mine.

I gather from the above that you have the plate. Would you rate, from one to ten, your level of certainly that the plate actually improves the ride, and also, on a similar scale, how much of an improvement you feel there is?

I'm just asking for your opinion, since I consider you to be one of the more level-headed peple on PC.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 9 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]420289[/snapback]</div>

If you live by that philosophy... indeed it does keep people out of allot of unnecessary trouble... but I'm really surprised you ever bought a prius in the first place since the expense really doesn't justify the expense.... but there are many reasons we buy what we buy.. all of them don't follow logic either... emotions and/or a sense of worth and well being take a strong toll also.

No one is saying anyone is a fool for not buying one........ as long as they don't say we are a fool "for" buying one then we are in a fair playing field.

Evan sized it up quite eloquently and covered all the bases.......
I respect you for not chosing to buy it..... I'm just not sure the respect is reciprocated.

there are many other goodies I have not bought yet that I'm sure are well worth thier money too... the Can View for instance and a few others.... to each his own...

 

Now THIS post is funny!!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Apr 9 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]420241[/snapback]</div>

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]420358[/snapback]</div>

I wanted a hybrid for the technology, and it was time to get rid of my 1989 Civic because it didn't have air bags or ABS.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 9 2007, 07:13 AM) [snapback]420255[/snapback]</div>

Uh. Yes. Unfortunately, I HAVE been reading these posts again. I hear that it works. The positive testimonials are numerous. And I'm glad to hear how many people benefit from this upgrade. I'm willing to stipulate that it works. I'm interested in *how* it works. I realize that the plate is 10.987 million times stiffer than the factory strap. Why is that better? I own the stiffest bicycle frame ever in production. I know where and why that frame is stiff. I can both see and feel the results of the stiffness in the proper place. I know why it improves performance, and how it affects handling. And it frustrates me that I don't know why stiffening this small area of the Prius floor would produce such dramatic results. It sounds like I'll need to be satisfied with, "It just does."

Presto spent some time and gathered a bunch of comments, and I appreciate his effort. He's come the closest to finding all the "how" posts - and you can see that over the years there have been precious few indeed - not the implied "many" posts on the subject of how it works. And if that's all there is, then I guess that's all there is. Life is too short to be a thorn in anybody's side. From what I gather, it works because it stiffens up the floor, and it works because race drivers notice that it works.

Do you have me confused with somebody else? I own one. I've done my own tests, such that they are. And I still don't understand how it should work.

Now who isn't reading the posts? I don't want a test. I don't want quantitative data (any of this ring a bell?) I don't want subjective opinion of better handling (we have plenty of that!). I just want to know how stiffening the floor in that area improves handling. The mechanics and physics of it. This isn't a challenge to give me argument fodder. It is a QUESTION about function. A question that I have not seen answered. Maybe I wouldn't understand it anyway. If the answer is, "Nobody knows how it works - we just noticed that it improves handling and we're happy with that" - then that's what I'd like to hear. If somebody really knows HOW it works, than that's what I'd like to hear.

And as I've said before - nobody owes me a damn thing here. I'm simply asking a question. If it can be answered, great. If it can't be... then it can't be. And I'll stop asking.

I'm NOT TRYING TO PROVE IT WORKS. I'm not sure anybody can test its function if they don't really know what it is doing.

It really hasn't changed much. For some reason you keep thinking that I'm looking for proof that the plate works. :shrug: You must be confusing me with other posters. At least I hope so!

Man. Every time I post, I'm reminded of why I stopped reading these threads so long ago. My life for some self-control!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 9 2007, 08:39 PM) [snapback]420531[/snapback]</div>

I'm no engineer, and I'm new to the site. But I'm amazed at your question. You don't need a physics degree to understand that the brace is meant to reduce flex between the right side of the car and the left side of the car. Reducing flex keeps the tires in better alignment with the road, thereby improving handling. Toyota added a brace at the factory, so evidently it's purpose has been engineered and is needed. Many performance cars have add-on braces for various parts of the car, including the C-4 Corvette. It makes perfect sense to me that adding a stiffer brace will help improve the ride. Does it impact other functions of the car, like additional weight and a change in the center of gravity, possibly, but from all the positive feedback, it sure sounds like it helps more that it hurts. I plan to buy one in the next month or two.

Allan