BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 7 2007, 05:52 PM) [snapback]419579[/snapback]</div>

Hi Tyrin.... and welcome... I've never said I wasn't offensive.... I think its a gift! :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Apr 7 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]419568[/snapback]</div>

I fully admit that I have not kept up with all these recent threads. I'm going by what they were all about many months ago, and from a recent skim of this one I saw much of the same.

What you post here is interesting... very much what I'm after. I'll go search and see if any discussion came of it, and if any of the functional guesses are supported by the designer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]419576[/snapback]</div>

Does that apply to all plate owners? My plate should be here soon.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]419576[/snapback]</div>

That has not been my experience. I have seen people attacked for opening posts similar to, "I hear so many of you like this brace. How does it make the car handle better?" This was from a year or so ago, and no, I do not have pointers. It happened many times, and is what soured me on these threads. There was no claim of fact or presumption. Simply a question. The response was, "If you have to ask, then don't bother buying it." Or if you don't believe those of us who really like it, then don't bother buying it."

Whoa! Where the hell did I ever state or imply that my test was either "conclusive or definitive?! This is the kind of thing that drives me nuts. This is MY EXPERIENCE. It cannot be refuted by anybody! It is what I did, and the result. It means nothing to anybody else, and says nothing about the function or validity of the brace. It is simply what happened in my experience.

Uh... well, yes they have. Not publicly as far as I know. But I've gotten plenty of hate mail which left no room for interpretation on that matter.

My whole point here is that you don't need to own the plate to be worthy of asking how it works.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 7 2007, 04:30 PM) [snapback]419597[/snapback]</div>

At that point, you shall have a valid opinion, but that's all it is, your opinion. And hey, we can all appreciate that!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 7 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]419601[/snapback]</div>

The most sensible thing I've heard in days. Only an insensible person would NOT ask about a product before buying...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 7 2007, 05:23 PM) [snapback]419614[/snapback]</div>

But the whole point of all the posts vs Allande is that he's already asked about the plate, and was explained how it worked. Without actual experience with the plate, he proceeded to proclaim that the plate doesn't work. He's been in past threads about the plate. It's not like we're ripping apart a random person that asks about the plate. He keeps repeating the same questions hoping that the answer will magically change to his line of thinking. Take a look through some of the big BT plate threads from a few months ago, and last year... Allande is there.

That's the way I see it too. My feeling is that there's no problem in trying to question the plate, but Allande decided to be the 'authority' on the subject, and started plopping BS of why the plate can't work. He is about as qualified as BobZ (search him) when it comes to being an 'authority' on the plate.

 

What's the point of someone doing a so-called "scientific" test when the person doing it is obviously already biased against the plate in the first place?

I am not a scientist but isn't it common sense that any test to be the least bit meaningful should be conducted by someone that is neutral and has no bias either way? If you read the posts by Allande, he is obviously going into this with the notion that the plate does not work based upon his own assumptions.

It does not matter to him that hundreds of others have already given their opinion of how well the plate works but only his opinion is the one that matters.

I have owned many high performance sports cars over the years including 3 Porsche 911's so I know what a good handling car is and how to detect small changes in the handling of the car. When I installed the bt plate, I felt the difference in how the car rides instantly. I did not need to conduct any tests to validate what I already know.

Frank Boyle


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 7 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]419637[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fboyle @ Apr 7 2007, 08:49 PM) [snapback]419645[/snapback]</div>

I'd be very impressed if you could find anyone neutral on this issue Frank.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 7 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]419637[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Presto.... I almost feel like your the only one whe read my post..... they keep ignoring my adament statements that questioning anything you buy before hand is smart business.....

But again.. I reinterate.... no one to my knowledge "I could be wrong" has flamed anyone for asking honest questions or concern or interest... but only when someone "makes up thier mind against it".. then proceeds to act like anyone who can't see it thier way and was foolish enough to buy it must be an idiot does it put everyone on the defensive about trusting future opinions from that person.

Darrell, sorry if thats what happened to you... there is tons of room for misunderstanding on these threads without sitting across the table "so to speak"..

But Allannde, don't be so nieve as to expect anyone to warm up to any feelings you have about the plate even after you have bought now... simply because you have stated your obvious bias against it already without even owning it.

If you are negative, you will not be trusted.. and even if you are positive.. you will still not be trusted because people will think your up to no good.

Sorry of this is honestly not the intent or direction of your heart.. its simply what people feel.

You came out here and tried to make everyone think they were crazy or at best subject to placebo illusions and now you want to buy the plate and "prove" its good or bad?..... you have already stated your true heart and now your credibility is thin.

I do commend you if you are willing to buy the plate even in spite of earlier concerns.... don't you think we "all" had concerns before we bought that it may be a hoax or of no effect?... why do you think your unique?
Do you really think that highly of yourself to assume only you are cautious and we are all presumptious fools?

The main difference between you and I is that I trust my abilities to read people better than you... I can tell when someone is full of it and when someone is being honest "even if they are wrong"... they still may be honest in thier error.

The next level of deductive reasoning tells me that this many people will not be wrong.
Normally there is always a small percentage of unsatified customers... go look at ebay.. even the most reputable players out there have someone who gave them a negative comment because of murphys law or they had totally unreal expectations and wanted 2000.00 worth of results for a 100.00 worth of product.

Some people want the world on a silver platter and want the cost to be nothing or call it a rippoff.

Its just a plate for crying out loud!... a very well made one out of quality metal placed in a strategic spot.....
I think it does wonders for 165.00..... try spending an extra 40.00 bucks per tire on your next set ( 40 X 4 = 160 ) and see how much improvement you see... quite possibly nothing and that money will be totally lost when those tires wear out.... the plate will last forever.

Sometimes I think the main skeptics out here must be kids that can't afford the plate or the prius?
165.00 bucks is nothing even if it did very little, but it does much more than very little... its quite amazing of its simplicity.... maybe the simplicity of it is what makes it a religious icon.... people have to have faith!... because its not super obvious why its going to work before you buy it... but it does nevertheless!

Some people honestly can't believe in anything they can't first see.
No I'm not asking anybody to have empty faith to purchase... I'm just asking them to have a little faith in the hundreds that already have vouched for it and not call us all an idiot!

 

After day two with the plate, I still think it's a lot tighter with far less twisting. I'm not looking to "prove it" .. nor looking to be in midst of a firestorm about whether or not this is "Real".

I did notice that the stock plate wasn't as thin as I expected from the postings. It was actually pretty heavy. But, I think the new plate offers a nice solidity to the frame.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 7 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]419594[/snapback]</div>

That explanation was postulated by donee a while ago on how possibly he thinks the plate works. Nothing by any actual engineers because it would "cost too much".

Of course, all this "evidence" that "it works" has been been 100% anecdotal, and that's somehow perfectly okay in a supposedly scientific, intelligent crowd that we are. Kinda dual-polar personality.

Believe it is true, say it enough times, and so be it! Of course, all the testimonials aren't any drivers of reputation, engineers, scientists, etc, but that's okay too! Oh, but you're dirty and damned if you're aren't all of them at once and dare to speak up doubts. Of course, your credentials will never be good enough to pose a debate.

This thread really belongs in FHOP because it's been nothing more than religion. Nothing but "I FEEL the spirit rising out of the back of the car. I know myself and I really feel it. Damn you for not feeling the same. Damn you for doubting my feelings. Damn you for doubting all of us who feel and believe in this talisman."

It's great that Brian is offering something that seems to have a positive effect on the poor handling of crappy shocks/springs trailing torsion semi-independant rear suspension setup of the pre-2006 Prius. More power to him for being such an entrepreneur.

But, don't touch the true believing owners whom really have no lives to continue trolling this thread and smacking down occasional disbelievers.

If the truth is self-evident, why are people so defensive about it? Reasonable doubt?

 

^^^


Ahh.... more words from another that doesn't own the BT plate and thinks it's a placebo. Your thoughts on the plate matter as much as Allande's.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 8 2007, 01:51 AM) [snapback]419764[/snapback]</div>

Presto

The weakness in your position and that of some others is the way you turn FACTS into thoughts and opinions. If it is just an opinion, it is much easier to throw out.

You don't want facts about the BT plate here. YOU CAN'T VOTE ON FACTS.

When you have a PROTECT AT ALL COST GAME which you play by your own rules, of course you will win.

I am a skeptic. That does not make me an opponent except in the eyes of a blind proponent. To them, everyone who does not genuflect (look it up) is an enemy.

I have said that I can't explain positive reports. I have said that positive reports could be mistaken. I have even said that the BT plate could not do much (A little might be enough for a positive effect).

But you can not show me a post where I have said that the BT plate DOES NOT WORK. There is a HUGH difference.

I have gone so far as to post how I see that IT IS MAINTAINED THAT it works. I was only stating my understanding of the posittion of others, not mine. If you disagree with that, SAY SO. To call me a "self styled authority" for trying to get discussion going is just playing a silly game of protection and not takeing part in open, adult discussion. PriusChat has a different reputation than that.

Perhaps the reason there was no response is that nobody knows how it works.

Perhaps the reason there was no response is because it is a secret how it works.

Perhaps the reason there was no response is because it doesn't work.

Perhaps the reason there was no response is the hope that I would just go away.

I don't know. But some of us want the truth which comes from open discussion not spin which comes from a secret society.

It looks like I will find out the true facts by myself. I don't know them yet. When I do, I will report them and I know the minds that WILL NOT change.

 

Oh my goodness...........................................

 

Hmmm. Is anyone up for a before and after slalom test? That is about the only objective test (that can be repeated by others) of the effectiveness of any stiffening plate. Not saying the plate doesn't work, as there are numerous examples of the plate being used for other cars; it is just that in most of the other applications, a stiffening plate is used for the last 5-10% of handling improvement.

Here is another question about mounting the plate: what about galvanic corrosion (from the aluminum of the stiffening plate coming into contact with the steel sheetmetal of the chassis)? I am aware that the stiffening plate is anodized, but if there is a tiny scratch in the anodized coating, the risk of galvanic corrosion is real. I was thinking that it might be possible to put a thin sheet of stainless steel between the stiffening plate and the chassis. Any thoughts/comments?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 8 2007, 09:25 AM) [snapback]419781[/snapback]</div>

Allannde.... you have no position because you have no plate... and when you get the plate, your credibiltiy will be in question now that you've revealed your paradigm.

You just want to argue in this game that your not even in because you haven't yet paid the ante.

Without a plate to play with.. you know nothing at all about the plate and what it will do.... you have no facts because you have no plate... you have no thoughts.. because you have no plate..... you have no opinion.. because you have no plate..... are you seeing a common thread here?

You are speculating on thin air at this point.......
When you get the plate, you will have to opportunity to go down in history as being someone who hates it after buying it.. I'm sure you can sell it for full price minus shipping and your scam will be over.

I'm really getting tired of the same story from you when you haven't even been at the event to report.

You just accused Presto of not having an arguement and that his comments are mere opinions without merit????? really?..... is this from someone who doesn't even own the plate and your insulting someone who does?....
Where are your facts?... and what is your opinion based on?.. at what gives you right for arguement at all at this point?

Based on this.. do you really think anything you have to say "after" you buy the plate will have a shred of credibility one way or another?

 

*** edit. Never mind. I guess the argument of who has the right to make a comment is way more fun than figuring out *how* this thing improves handling. Being curious sucks sometimes.

Is there ANY way of stipulating that the plate works... and then asking HOW it works? If so, I'd like to apply. My previous messages seem to have not be clear enough in that regard.

I've seen guesses and suggestions on how or why a stiffer plate works. And that's a good start. Does anybody actually KNOW? Just learning how it was determined that beefing up this one area would help handling would be fascinating to hear.

I have no chip on my shoulder. I'm just curious. A quick look at my Prius mods page should make it obvious that I like figuring things out. I understand how shocks work. How sway bars work. How tower braces work, how low-profile tires work. I don't understand how a stiffer brace across the tunnel in a floor pan works. And again - I am NOT questioning that it does work here! I'm not asking for quantitative analysis or a lesson in metalurgy. I'm only asking how and why. Am I worthy to ask that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Apr 8 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]419830[/snapback]</div>

Hi Apriusfan,

I actually used 5 (?) mil PVDF tape. That is the brown high temp tape they use to mask circuit boards before they go through a solder wave soldering process. Its very strong, and in such a thin thickness, it should have very little effect mechanically. I applied it to the plate, and trimmed out the bolt openings with a razor blade.

Might be overkill. The chasis is heavily plated with something - probably zinc. So, it would be unlikely the aluminum and steel would touch. But, ya never know. So I took the extra precaution, being up here in Chicagoland.

 

The religious fervor on this thread exceeds any that I've seen, even for such divisive subjects as the descendants of Mohammed or the New York Yankees.

So at the risk of finding a burning Toyota symbol on my lawn, I have to say that I have seen no difference whatsoever in the handling of my Prius since I purchased my BT stiffening plate about 14 months ago.

Of course, the reason is that I haven't installed it. The thing is so gorgeous, it has been sitting over the fireplace all this time. (Much to the bewilderment of my significant other.) The torque wrench and bolts are sitting right next to my ramps in the garage, waiting for that rapturous day when I finally install it. I plan to do that Real Soon Now.

I will note that I am already predisposed to the alleged placebo effect. Ever since I first drove the Prius from where I bought it in San Jose home to Pasadena along the Pacific Coast Highway, the thing has always felt like a bunch of pieces of metal flying in loose formation when experiencing even modest side forces at reasonable speeds on curvy roads.

I suspect that the nature of the terrain you drive in and your proclivities for lateral G forces will have a significant impact on your assessment of the effect of the plate. I will, of course, evaluate the effect completely objectively (Ph.D in physics from Caltech -- "Back off man, I'm a scientist!"), partly because I've already forgotten what I paid for the thing. I will report back. Real Soon Now.