BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 5 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]418564[/snapback]</div>

eek! So, if Brian responds then there will be yet another google link on this site. Bummer. then you could just say, "but it's on Prius Chat and they are biased" and continue...

Oh noes! We're doooomed!

Quick, someone start another website for Brian (or anyone else) to post to so that the cycle can be broken!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Merchant @ Apr 5 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]418671[/snapback]</div>

Hello Bill

Of course opinions are important. But sometimes opinions are incorrect as painful as that is to think about.


When the jury finds an innocent person guilty of murder, and DNA later proves he is innocent, should he be executed anyway?


Overturning the verdict might impugn the judgement of the jury.


When the facts are out, questions will finally have answers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 6 2007, 12:22 PM) [snapback]418866[/snapback]</div>

Don't you realize your having illusions of grandure?.... Thats the symptoms of a manic depressive!

Do you really think "little ohh you" will sway the jury of hundreds.. maybe thousands?

You must really have a good ego. :lol:

Do you think you are the only ones thats challenged the plate?


Every person that has ever put one on.... didn't just automatically disengage his brain and say "oh I"m glad I bought that plate.. it really works!".... but they watched and challenged it over time.


The longer one drives his car without the plate, the easier it will be to notice the difference when he puts it on.

If you go buy a new prius and instantly put on the plate.. of course it will feel like it works.. but the real proof is from those who are veterans to the prius and then try the plate.

I think Bill has driven a prius long enough to know the difference with verses without with his "new" prius.


Hey Bill, did you feel your new 2007 prius drove "worse" than the older 2005 prius with the plate until the plate was applied to the new prius, or have you installed it yet?



And if so, how much better do you feel the 2007 drove after the plate?.. was it subliminal or noticable?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 6 2007, 09:22 AM) [snapback]418866[/snapback]</div>

Bad analogy. DNA comparison is a scientific process that has been validated by peer review. You have provided absolutely nothing that validates your so called test from an engineering or a scientific point of view.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 6 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]419135[/snapback]</div>

In the context of Bill's post, I think the analogy stands on its merits.

The issue here started when I detected something "fishy" about the BT plate. But I don't claim to be anything other than what I am - a reasonably informed Prius owner. So the fair thing to do is to ask someone who knows the answer to the question "how does this thing work?". The only place to go is here. I got flamed.

I went away. I came back later and then did my best to demonstrate why it looked "fishy". I got flamed again.

Frustrated, I decided that I was going to have to buy the plate to find out if it worked.

It shouldn't be that way.

You all ask me to trust your judgement. Do you trust mine? I don't expect you to.

So when I get my plate, I will tell you what I find. What I tell you will be accurate. It will be testable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Merchant @ Apr 6 2007, 02:26 AM) [snapback]418671[/snapback]</div>

No, he wishes to assert his own views, period, just like you do. He doesn't care if you agree with him. He has basically been browbeaten into buying a plate, because apparently you're not allowed to say you don't think the plate works unless you have one. It's a matter of him trying to make up his own mind BEFORE a purchase, based on what he thinks is reliable evidence. He isn't convinced by the testimonials (which are the only evidence that anyone else has presented). That isn't impugning your reputation, it is simply choosing to be skeptical.

Rush doesn't just disagree or doubt his opposition, he belittles, name-calls, and heckles them. Show me the post where Allannde did that. Despite what you think, everyone has the right to respectfully doubt another's views. I think he has been EXTREMELY polite, especially considering the extremely UNPOLITE responses from some.

His basic question is still valid. Even if Allannde cannot come up with a test that would empirically prove/disprove the plate's effectiveness, you'd think SOMEONE could (definitely not me). It would be a useful selling tool for Brian as well (assuming it gives positive results), to help convince us skeptics. Many have said that the static tests are useless, but we should all be thinking of tests that would actually work. If you care about convincing others, then stop telling us to just trust you, and help us figure out the science behind the product.

 

http://www.evnut.com/prius_stiffening_plate.htm

Did some sniffing around...apparently there are a few other skeptics out there among us. Darrell has actually done a blind "placebo" test with his wife. Allannde you should try this with a friend. In fact, everyone with a BT Plate should see if their friend can tell the difference with/without the plate. Better yet, have someone else switch plates on you randomly for a few test drives, and check it yourself!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 7 2007, 12:20 AM) [snapback]419222[/snapback]</div>

You didn't include any of the other discussion with that post you dug up...... it was mentioned that some people would not notice if you took the suspension out and replaced it with buggy springs.. yet others are very sensitive.

At any rate.. no one cares about doing a test... but they do care about making accusations and statements as fact when they haven't even tried the plate.

You buy the plate... at least you have something to talk about then...... whether you are of integrity concerning statements made is a whole different issue... but if you don't own the plate yet.. yes.. you can be skeptical if you want.. but you "cannot" put down other people for thier convictions as if they are contriving some placebo effect or are hallucinating, or are just plain simple minded......

Its a major insult to the intelligence to someone to stand from a position of "no Knowledge or experience" and put down someone else who has "both" because they were not afraid to buy the plate and install it and then use it.....

Its called "common sense".............. providing someone is trying to be honest..... they can at least be included in intelligent discussions if they have bought and used the plate.... but no, you don't have the right to put down someone for how they play thier hand if your afraid to even ante up and get in the game.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 6 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]418866[/snapback]</div>

I was not addressing you. Your opinion does not count with me. This is not a court of law.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 6 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]418917[/snapback]</div>

Hi Windstrings. As I said earlier, I could feel the improvement in handling when I made a sharp turn into traffic after it was installed in BOTH the 2005 and 2007. On the 2007 I got new Pirelli 195/60R15 tires at 300 miles, and that improved handling a lot. The BT Tech plate makes the car feel like it is on rails. Very precise steering and control. Very noticeable!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Apr 6 2007, 07:59 PM) [snapback]419175[/snapback]</div>

You finally got one thing right.

What you find out will be absolutely meaningless. Your home spawned test is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Before you ask us to accept your results, you must first demonstrate that automotive engineers or other experts in the field consider your test to be valid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 6 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]419222[/snapback]</div>

Unfortunately this isn't a real test as we don't know the length of the drive or the speed. This could be once around the block at 25mph for all we know.

That might work; swap a BT plate and an OEM plate around once a week, but not let the driver know which is on and ask how the driving felt during each week.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Merchant @ Apr 7 2007, 01:03 AM) [snapback]419248[/snapback]</div>

Thats what I thought too..... at times I have been tempted to switch back for fun.... but I was so happy with the BT plate.. I "tossed" my old plates right in the trash.....sure I would never want them again.

Even if I sold the car... I would feel guilty if I didn't leave the plate on.... I want the next guy to have as nice a ride as I had!

I will gladly spend another 165.00 for another plate when I get my new prius......maybe 09 or so whenever they do the big jump to LiIon and much more extended mileage.

BTW... I miss the meetings with you guys there in portland.. I haven't found anything in my area yet.... Dallas is about an hour and a half.. been too busy to get commited that far.

But I wanted to ask you "a little off subject"... I have determined that the more traction one gets from tires, it tends to also take away mileage.... have you noticed a dent in your mileage with your new tires?
Soon I will need to be thinking about that.... was wondering your feelings after the purchase if you would do it over again or if you recommend another......

You can PM me if you don't want to get off topic.

 

Just installed mine today -- I've only done a little driving since installing, but it definitely feels like the rear end rocks a bit less than it did. That was one annoying thing about the Prius -- that on bumpy turns, it felt a bit like being twisted. That seems to be gone now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rob_md @ Apr 7 2007, 02:49 AM) [snapback]419290[/snapback]</div>

LOL!... are you "sure" you not just imagining that Rob????

Welcome to the forum!...... don't you just love someone questioning your sanity when they don't even own the plate themselves?

I too didn't get a clear signal the first few days I drove it.. as I was going to work on a straight road.. but as soon as I took it to the mountains ..... I was sold beyond any shadow of doubt...... my little baby feels like a sportscar now..... at least it is "very" responsive and does exactly what my steering wheel tells it to do.

If I had to dodge a squirrel or such.. I could do it at much higher speeds now without feeling like I would throw the car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 6 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]419258[/snapback]</div>

Watch me.

 

How did this machined hunk of aluminum become such a religious icon? The flying accusations are comical here, guys! I've done full-on suspension mods (springs, shocks, sway bars, bushings, braces - the works) on other cars and have been happy with some of the results and not so happy with others. Other folks who performed the same mods couldn't understand why I was so happy with the ones that thrilled me - ones that they didn't appreciate or notice the same benefits that I did. We're all different, and we all have different expectations, driving styles, understanding of physics and most importantly - sensibilities.

And NONE of this has anything to do with HOW this plate accomplishes its goal. This is the part I wish to understand, and the part that I have not seen explained or even discussed. Countless threads full of childish arguments, and not one based on the physics of the thing. Any time a *potential* customer dares to ask how it works, he's suddenly the bad guy. Then the bad guy gets defensive since it becomes one against the cult, and the whole thing rapidly heads down the toilet. Why? I mean without pointing fingers - because we already know it is the other guy's fault. Imagine if the Prius questions were handled this way. Somebody is interested in buying one, but doesn't understand the whole Synergy thing. Well, unless you buy one, you shouldn't be asking those questions! Why do you hate the Prius so much? :sigh: Asking the questions does not equate to doubt every time! Sometimes it is a request for information - simple as that. Maybe we could try ANSWERING the questions as a first attempt, and see how it goes from there. As far as I can tell, that has not happened on these many threads.

I started out as the original "bad guy" because of the page I put up after installing my plate. Though I've been ridiculed for that page, and made to look like an imbicile who isn't sensitive to the precise handling characteristics that this plate improves, I still don't have misgivings about the honest comments I made. This is MY experience, folks! I didn't rub anybody's face in it, and I didn't mean anybody any harm. Like with all my mods, I comment on them. And the value of my comments can be worth exactly what is paid for them. I expend tons of my own money and effort to maintain those pages. Easier to do the mods than the web pages in many cases! No harm, no foul.

I have steered clear of all these discussions of the BT plate because it is just UGLY. Where does the venom come from?! This is a freaking piece of metal that some people really enjoy, and other people would like to understand more fully. Can't information be shared without defending some inanimate object with such religious fervor? Why can there be no discussion of the thing without it instantly devolving into "you don't own one, so you have nothing to say" sort of experience? I mean this is as bad as religion and politics combined! Add sex, and we have the complete trifecta. Before I buy stuff, I ask all kinds of questions. In fact, I even attempted to ask about this plate before I ordered, but that didn't get me far at all. And I sure didn't want to ask publicly because I just don't like being publicly flogged for some odd reason. I own one. And I'd like to know just how it is intended to work. I want to know what the original brace did. And I want to know how this one is intended to do it better. I'm not looking for the *result* - I want to know the "how." Some folks don't care "how." I do. And while nobody owes me any sort of explanation, I do think folks should be allowed to ask without fear of a harsh response.

We have UNCHALLENGED comments in some of these threads where customers claim they can DOUBLE their speed around corners after installing the brace. This I can not swallow! Next we'll see immaculate Prius conception??? But again - it isn't the very subjective results that I care about. It is the function that interests me (and others who have asked). Is there any way to have a civil discussion about the function? The physics? the *concept* of this plate? Or should we just be happy that it works so well for so many, and just squash any an all discussion about the mechanics?

Sorry for the rambling. This stuff has been bottled up in me for so long - as I sat and wished this situation would change. But after all these months, we still have the same battles, over the SAME chunk of metal. Amazing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 7 2007, 05:22 PM) [snapback]419538[/snapback]</div>

Wasn't this addressed early on in this thread? and also here:

<quote:
My estimation is purely logical since I haven't experienced Tom's brace.

With the tunnel that the exhaust system traverses, the chassis of the Prius (and most cars) is an upside down U. As you can imagine, the sides of the U can be pulled askew by lateral cornering forces, so the wheels are not parallel. The smaller OEM and BT Tech brace tie the closest part of the Ü together, assuming that the steel floor will help tie the outer edges, where the wheels are located, together too. Tom's brace tries to tie the outer edges of the Û together, since that's where the wheels are.

If there were a solid, machined brace, like BT Tech's, that went from outside edge to outside edge, like Tom's does, that might provide the most rigidity. It would also be heavy. The Tom's brace, composed of bolted-together components, seems somewhat flimsy and prone to distortion. While it might stop the spreading of the U, it won't affect the wracking of the U going around a corner. The BT Tech brace can't control the edges of the car, but it ties the floor on the right side to the floor on the left side together without much flexion. It rely's on the rigidity of the floor to keep the wheels parallel.

We know the Prius has a very high-strength steel passenger compartment, so there's a lot of rigidity there. So I guess that Tom's brace would work fine, though the span it's connecting is longer and it is more flexible.

So, my estimation is that the BT Tech brace is more rigid and likely to provide more rigidity to the vehicle. It also replaces the part that Toyota installed (they don't make a cross-vehicle brace), requiring only a simple swap, with better bolts.


--------------------

Bill
[email protected]
>quote


I will be interested to see what conclusions are reached by allande but frankly my decision of whether to purchase a BT brace would be more influenced by the fact that I have not seen any posts in the threads I have read on this topic by anyone who purchased one and was not satisfied with it. Way too many people have posted otherwise for it to be a "placebo effect", as some have suggested.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 7 2007, 12:52 AM) [snapback]419247[/snapback]</div>

Again, show me where Allannde insulted you. Not DISAGREED, but actually insulted you. If you can find it, then I'll make another list of your multiple, serious insults.

Darrel, thanks for speaking up. It seems that the plate protectors are getting nervous or something, cause they keep hurling insults

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 7 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]419538[/snapback]</div>

You could be correct Darrell, but at least according to my recollection... no one gets attacked until they claim something as fact when they have either not even bought the plate yet and are only presuming based on very limited understanding and "no" experience... or they have done a totally unscientific test with members who are not "attuned" to such test and have no record or history of being "connected" or needing to be "as a racecar driver" or someone who just listens to thier car.

Face it.. if we take our wives and use them in a blind study.... what can we really conclude?
I don't know about your wife, but I could change the tires to brand new and dang near remove the struts and ride on springs alone and she probrably wouldn't notice anything if she wasn't warned first to look for it.
Some people would "never" make a racecar driver even though they may be wonderful people and some are not good for doing blind tests on.

I'm sorry if you were offended for someone questioning your test that maybe you felt was conclusive and definitive.... but thats the nature of the beast. Its very hard for someone to come up with a test that satisfies them that also satisfies the needs of everyone else that already feels they have concluded the contrary based on real experience.

I know your a technical kinda guy and have done some very worthy things in the name of prius improvements... but we are not all gifted in all areas.

No one is blameing you are anybody else for impressions you honestly feel if you own the plate.
I for one just get offended when people assume I'm crazy because they don't see or feel what I feel.

No one is a criminal for questioning the plate as long as they don't start acting like an "authority" on the subject when they haven't even bought it or tried it yet.

Thats as bad as someone afraid to taste spinach because they "know" they won't like it.

We get hecklers out here that use thier sheer limited understanding and reasoning to conclude its all bunk and then try to sell others on that conclusion?

Thats like me deciding Jets are dangerous and rediculous to trust your life in when I've never been in one?

How many times do we see the results of even real engineers turn out to be all bunk?

Heck they already have seen that the Trinobel Radiation leak from thier nuclear plant back years ago in 1986 has already rebounded to normal levels.... the "engineers" never anticipated that mother nature could rebound the effects near so soon... they miscalculated because they had limited facts and information but yet they thought they knew it all.

I don't take lightly tests that defy all my senses and try to tell me I'm hallucinating or am simply under the influence of a placebo effect when they don't even have a clue yet.

I don't feel you fall into that catagory as you own the plate and therefore are worthy to state your opinion without getting a bunch of flack for it. No matter how many others disagree.

Anybody thats willing to do one simple test "and actually believe it" over the experiences of hundreds of peoples convictions based on real hands on using may be quite simple minded themselves!

 

Who called you crazy? Offensive, yes, but not crazy.