Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Mar 15 2007, 06:56 PM) [snapback]406360[/snapback]</div>

Well, isn't that interesting. This would mean that for someone living on the West coast of North America, it's actually more efficient to import a car from Japan than it is to bring one over from Detroit. That's not the answer I expected; I thought rail travel would be the most efficient.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(liquidsoapdispenser @ Mar 15 2007, 04:40 PM) [snapback]406226[/snapback]</div>

Hi Liquidsoapdispenser,

I have emailed the student author with some simple points. He responded that he is dubious of the CNW information, based on further online research. He thanked me for my email, that it made him "dig deeper".

You can tell your father-in-law that.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Mar 15 2007, 08:41 PM) [snapback]406393[/snapback]</div>

To follow the CNW line of reasoning. Its not just getting the car from the assembly plant to the user, however. Its getting all those East Asian and Mexican made parts to Tennesee, Ohio, Illinois, Ontario and Michigan to be put in the cars! Are we considering that B) .

Parts tend to take allot more space individually, then when assembled into a car. That is more air drag in transportation.

CNW is a tool. Its clear to everybody on here.

 

Apparently Rush Limbaugh picked up on that piece and read it on his radio show. The student author of the article has been discussing it in a thread on mercurycougar.net.

Check it out.
http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28184

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Mar 15 2007, 06:40 AM) [snapback]406022[/snapback]</div>

Ummm.. because we're trying to discuss something relevant? How much fuel is used to transport the imported components and raw materials to build the 3x more massive Hummer? And how much more fuel just to move the thing after it is on the road?! Let me guess - you agree with the article's premise?

Come on - you can find something more significant to be annoying about!

 

Hi All,

Ooh, this is getting good. I wonder if he will call into Rush and admidt incomplete research? Is he a weasel, or will he come clean? Rule #1. Everything you write on the internet is Public. And you never know when some big mouth oportunist like R.L. will take advantage of your inexperience!

 

And, of course, shame on Rush for using such poor research. As this thing has so many holes in it, it brings a bit of discredit on him as well.

See my earlier post.

If I recall, the typical car requires about 6 MWh of energy for it's construction (this doesn't include the energy that goes into making the individual parts). Though there's a ford plant in the UK that has chopped this number in half. In a few years most cars being built will probably consume a similar amount. The assembly of the vehicle is not significant compared to the fuel consumed over the life of the car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(liquidsoapdispenser @ Mar 16 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]407148[/snapback]</div>

Woah. You just used "Rush" and "intellectual honesty" in the same sentence.

 

And no one failed to mention little things like how much more smelting almost double the amount of steel that makes up a Hummer as well as how much damage and repairs are made to our roadways.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Mar 15 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]406429[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(liquidsoapdispenser @ Mar 16 2007, 09:33 PM) [snapback]407148[/snapback]</div>

If he was so dubious of the CNW information why is he completely unapologetic on the other thread? He's actually proud that R.L. picked up on his inaccurate article. I love that he admits to throwing the article together in half and hour. When someone asked if everything is factual since they wanted to distribute it, he just answers it's public domain.

If this is the future generation of journalism, it's a sad situation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drash @ Mar 16 2007, 08:04 PM) [snapback]407171[/snapback]</div>

Yep. The H2 has a curb weight of 6400 lbs vs. 2890 lbs for an 06 Prius and 2932 for on 07.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(toad @ Mar 17 2007, 01:18 AM) [snapback]407227[/snapback]</div>

Hi Toad,

I received the email on the same day that info was put on the Cougar website. But there are no times on the Cougar website, so there is no indication of which was written first. If he wrote the Cougar stuff first, then his comments to me could be sincere. The time on the email I received was 10:05 pm.

Should anybody make a decision based on " Hell, I threw the paper together in 1/2 hour of being bored. I was just having fun lol." shenanigans of an ignoramous 21 year old ? I think not. My opinion is this guy is self-centered adolescent who has no more thoughts about the world, than his own jollies drag racing in a 25 year old car he twisted the bolts on. He was not even a gleem (as they say) during the oil shocks of the 70's. Clearly we are not talking about a deep thinker here.


Oh, Iron is smelted, and Steel made from the resulting pig-Iron, its actually a three step process. Taconite to Hematite to Pig Iron to Steel. The polution is due to the other chemicals in the ore. Taconite (the common Iron ore mined on the Mesabi Range) probably does not have much sulfur, but I am no expert. I know copper ore has little sulfur from just east of there, where I walked through a copper smelter facitility going to and from school in the 4 th, 5 th and 6 th grades. I do not remember any sulfur smells, and there were plenty of birch and evergreen trees within yards of the it and all over the U.P. One of our family outings was a trip to Porcupine mountain, and look out over the lake, where there were ore ships were going by. You know "The Wreck of Edmond Fitzgerald" was about one of those ore ships.

The bigger problem with Taconite was the asbestous found with it which were in the mine tailings deposited into the western tip of Lake Superior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite

http://www.mesothelioma-search-engine.com/...a-news-0106.htm

So, not using high strength steel, and thus reducing the amount of steel needed in a car, or doubling the mass of a vehicle (as in Hummer SUV) needed for commuting is an obviously anti-ecological thing to do. And its not effecting a wilderness way up north in hard to receach, sparsely poplated, northern parts of Canada, but an area that would be a resort akin to Lake Champlaign, within easy weekend trip from Minneapolis/ St Paul, if not for the US demand for heavy cars.

 

See this: http://www.sudburysoilsstudy.com/EN/overview/background.asp

although heavy metal concentrations take centuries to filter through the soil levels(like the mercury from the gold rush in CA in'49 now leeching into SF Bay and all the tributaries making the seafood there prudently inedible).

Nice to see reforestation happening there though ...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeffn @ Mar 18 2007, 10:57 PM) [snapback]408211[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the link Jeff. Interesting reading.

 

No offense to all of you in this wonderfully entertaining thread, however, the Hummer used in the comparison was the H3, not the H2. I am no fan of the H3, but it is a significantly smaller vehicle than the H2.

Something else to consider. The cost per mile in the "Dust-to dust" report takes into consideration the cost of development. Both the H3 and H2 use GM platforms from other vehicles that have been on the market for over a decade. They are merely sheet metal upgrades. The Prius technology is far newer and therefore has had less time to offset initial costs.

By the way, this is my first response considering I just bought my Prius yesterday.

PS I am already getting 43+ miles to the gallon. This car was designed to be driven in Los Angeles. With average speeds of less than 30 mph in stop and go conditions, everyone should be driving one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dentedwheel @ Mar 20 2007, 12:09 AM) [snapback]408815[/snapback]</div>

Since you're new here, see my refutations of CNW's crap at http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=3...mp;#entry403215 and http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php...ock#post2494537. I posted about these earlier in the thread.

Did you know that CNW claims that the Prius costs $325K to DISPOSE while they claim it cost $13K to make it? Did you that a VW Phaeton the sold for $64K to ~$100K incurs $2.5 MILLION in disposal costs? This is the type of crap that CNW spews out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dentedwheel @ Mar 20 2007, 12:09 AM) [snapback]408815[/snapback]</div>

IMHO, every large city with gridlock type problems should be really encouraging hybrids. While you're getting 43 mpg, most are probably getting less than 10 mpg under those conditions. That really contributes to air pollution, not to mention depleting a limited resource.

Dave M.

 

I received a reply from the author, Chris DeMorro at a thread in a Mustang forum wherein he is still defending ridiculous assertions such as the Prius costing $200k over the life of the vehicle. He didn't respond specifically to my post, but said:

Hi.
Your interest has been noted. I would like to turn your attention to tommorrows edition of the Recorder. All will be made clear.
-Chris
P.S. I never thought I'd see the day that enviromentally concerned people would defend a nickel mining plant. It is hilarious.
http://www.corral.net/forums/showpost.php?...p;postcount=134

So I'd expect a good bit of deflection (i.e., environmentalists defend mine!) in whatever response his paper publishes tomorrow. By the latest google of his title as a phrase "prius outdoes hummer in environmental damage", his little column of misinformation is now mentioned 150,000 times on the internet. I do hope snopes does something on this.

 

Good luck with your rebuttal to this nonsense. The wonder of the internet that information can spread quickly. What is really frustrating is that bad information can spread quickly too. I doubt that this article (or similar articles) will continue to surface every so often. Hopefully I am proven wrong.

Probably most disappointing is this college student's idea of a good, well-researched piece. Throwing something together in 30 minutes with little or no research is not acceptable work, much less something to brag about. I really worry about our current educational system.

Edit: Good rebuttal. Not really sure how he thought you were defending the mine in it, but the deflection isn't very surprising. After reading the entire thread over there, I see little chance of persuading the author on any of his points with statements like "I am just glad I stirred up debate about hybrids" and "hybrids are useless technology" after multiple people pointing out he errors. He makes it very clear that he is anti-hybrid because he doesn't like a professor that drives one and thinks that driving a hybrid is going to hurt research on EVs and FCV. I give up to the Bonks guy in the thread, he is really patient and persistent, him and some of the others on the thread do give me hope.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Mar 27 2007, 01:44 PM) [snapback]413056[/snapback]</div>

I registered on that site and presented the basic arithmetic (the CNW estimate implies that our total "energy cost" of driving is more than 10x total US spending for all types of energy).

But, after reading that thread, my main comment is, wow, what a nice place PriusChat is.

When I was in college, my best friend and I used to rate public places (mainly campgrounds) by what we called the AAQ, which stands for average a**hole quotient. Meaning, the proportion of people there who could be described by that word. If the AAQ got too high, we'd go somewhere else, under the theory that life is too short to spend time dealing with ... people who could be described by that word. PriusChat is definitely a low-AAQ venue, and that Mustang site definitely is not.

The other thing this reminds me of is the statistics I calculated for some earlier thread here, cross-tabulating type of car owned against level of education, based on a US goverment survey. I only included US versus Japanese in the contrast, but the results could not have been more clear. Increase in the average education level was strongly and linearly associated with owning a Japanese (as opposed to US-badge) car. That mustang site had, for want of a better word, a lot fairly stupid people posting on it. So, in that sense, it was the perfect place for the CNW work to gain traction. Kind of a good reminder about why propaganda works.