Is Hell Forever?

i am beginning to think that the root of all this arguing is simply caused by a failure to understand objective vs subjective...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 13 2007, 08:45 AM) [snapback]404808[/snapback]</div>

Not sure what you meant't?

Both are true, but it could happen tomorrow and be totally legal to do so.. in fact many feel even overdue.

There is one piece of prohecy with either people have misinterpreted or we are really overdue... but it does say God has extended the time to save souls.
There are more souls being saved now, then all of history put together.
But the "generation" that see's Isreal become a nation again is not supposed to pass away before these events.

One thing I've wondered... does that mean the "generation" itself?.. which is considered to be 40 years, or the people born of that generation?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Mar 13 2007, 11:07 AM) [snapback]404885[/snapback]</div>

Sometimes it wise if everybody lays down thier weapons and starts over with a clean slate and everybody needs to try and make a concerted effort to talk genuinely and not throw mud.

Sometimes its only in fun, and we need to make that very clear when we do it in jesting.... but we can't put a smiley face behind every nasty thing we say and call it jesting when its really not.

I know it won't last long till some troll, heckler, or someone just plain hurt and offended will get nasty and then we are no longer taking each others post seriously again.

I try to assume every post is genuine if I can, usually that person will come back later and insult me for answering in a fashion that didn't give them the answer they wanted or offended thier pride or whatever.
But every once in a while I connect and someone see's I'm a real person.

But its certainly much more condusive to communication when we can all get along.

The best of friends fight sometimes worse than the worse of enemies.

But if we can all "respect" each other and then all stick together to police those who don't, we may be able to have some good dialouge........

Any thread anywhere here on PC will have hecklers and trolls.. they just have to be ignored so as to not feed thier fire.

So if any of you "hecklers" are out there... LOL! and want to be serious and aren't afraid to ask questions, we can carry on.

Many people are embarrassed to present a formal question or honest counter, because of what they think thier friends will think, so they do it in a mudslinging fashion, hoping for the same results and wonder why they get hurt and communication breaks down.

So.. we are all made of the same stuff.. and we are all trying to get to heaven instead of hell..... so lets have some honest discussion and try not to play head games with each other and realize this subject is indeed a matter of life and death for all....

even if some don't believe in any of it...and think the whole topic is silly.... if that be the case, they should dismiss themselves from the discussion and not delight in poisoining everyone else... but if there is a tiny room of doubt, then please stay and discuss, And lets be civil?

Does that sound fair?....any objections?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 13 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]404867[/snapback]</div>

1) I NEVER said that, and
2) I think you should go back and read Daniel's post that I was replying to:
He is the one who said "You poor sick man!" and "the Bible is one of the sickest documents around", so I was merely echoing his own words in my reply. Trying to deamonize me to deflect the discussion is a weak ploy. Why don't you actually try to counter my post, instead of distracting reader's attention from it?
Would a "well" mind make such inflamatory statements as:
God is "imaginary man in the sky"
"Jesus ... invent(ed) communism"
"Jesus ...was delusional and seriously insane"
God is a "psychopath"
"Religion is so entirely devoid of all logic and common sense", "nonsense", "pure hogwash", "irrational beliefs", and "bunk"
Christianity is a "collection of fairy tales"

All-in-all, not a very constructive topic at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Mar 13 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]404962[/snapback]</div>

OK! I'll play!

Would a "well" mind worship an imaginary man in the sky?

He seemed all for giving to the poor, rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and definitely had not much respect for the rich or the "money changers". Nowadays, he'd be called a commie.

Even I disagree with this one. He wasn't. His fanclub was (especially Paul).

Someone who wipes out just about the entire world simply because what's happening in two cities - well, that's a pretty good sign somebody needs a good therapist.

"God will give the END TIMES utterly by surprise, which is why all the other times they said 'THE END TIMES ARE NEAR! HERE ARE THE SIGNS!' were wrong. Which means THE END TIMES ARE NEAR! HERE ARE THE SIGNS!' is just the latest lack of logic and common sense in this thread. I could point out a dozen more."

That's simply because he's too nice to call all religions (including Atheism) what they are: bullsh1t.

You're right here. Myths and legends is more accurate.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 13 2007, 10:51 AM) [snapback]404914[/snapback]</div>

I'm all for it, Windstrings.

But expect some TOUGH questions, and high skepticism toward answers that are mere regurgitations of text from a bible. To you such quotes serve as the "authority" behind your opinions, but many of us do not recognize the bible as a credible authority, and are much more likely to be persuaded by real world evidence and reason.

Speaking of persuasion, one of the major frustrations of some of us in these threads is the evangelists' close mindedness to ideas that conflict with belief. You evangelists demand that we secularists OPEN our minds to your point of view, but you refuse to open YOUR minds to consideration of anything beyond your own, pardon my speaking the truth here, CALCIFIED set of beliefs.

The dialogue of mutual persuasion is a two way street - both parties must be ready to acknowledge and incorporate new evidence, new facts, new insights into what each believes. If either party takes the dogmatic stance that they and ONLY they are completely and fully correct, with NOTHING further to learn (i.e. their beliefs have CALCIFIED), at that point dialogue breaks down and there's no point in trying to continue.

I'm ready to learn anything from anybody, even those with whom I thoroughly disagree (I should say ESPECIALLY those with whom I thoroughly disagree, for it is the outside viewpoint that most widens perspective). But I expect no less from from the other party.

Are you willing to open your mind, Windstrings, WITHOUT qualifications, WITHOUT prejudice; loosen your iron grip on belief and expand your knowledge?

It ain't easy. I have to work hard to do it myself and I don't always succeed. But there's no way I know of better than that toward deepening and enriching understanding.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 13 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]404972[/snapback]</div>

Mark there are definately tons of places that are not clear.. but there are tons of others that are and have and are being experienced....

Sometimes its truely is an element of faith.. but not in nothing.......

I don't know if your married, but because you have built a positive emotional bank account and have learned to trust someone and respect them and even revere them based on many experiences, trials, testings and good relationship in general, you will give them the benifit of a doubt on other issues and not question.

like... Hi honey.... where did you go the last 3 hours?... oh me and donna from down the street went shopping.. I tried to find you but you were out......
Because you trust her, you don't even second guess here statement or motives.. you have "faith" in her to hold on to her words as if they are real without "proof".

But if had been recently burn't really good from a previous marriage, you may look into it more to see if she was messing around and your ability to have faith would be stunted.
The world burns us soo much that we too have trouble with faith.

Even with your children, your boss... on and on.. we have faith in things we cannot know or see nor have proof.

A relatioship of Love is based on that.....

Based on that and knowing what we do know, they're are other things that are not yet proven that we take on faith and trust.
Its hard for others to take those same issues of faith to heart because they don't have the relationship?

Just because you trust your wife with your life, doesn't mean I can trust your wife with my life?

So whats the solution?

The convictions and faith of the more mature in Christ verses the new, or even the unbeliever cannot be pressed upon he who is not there yet...
Thats why the bible teaches not to abuse your faith by imposing it on another like you being able to handle wine when a brother has issues with it.

So I totally respect the viewpoint of the unbeliever.

what has gotten all of us into trouble is not repecting each other and trying to make fun of, slander, and trample each others viewpoints which each party then takes as a personal attack since they feel strongly about it.

All anyone can do is give love a chance to fall in love with someone... Its no different with God.... we can't cast him down to the ground and discount his words when we don't even know him yet?

Then there is another problem...... when someone who believes in a "different" God that teaches contrary to your God?

One God says Kill the "whoever' and the other God says.. i will curse those the curse whoever and bless those that bless that same whoever?

Now we feel obligated to substantiate and defend the point of disagreement and we are no longer on sides?

If we can try to not "on purpose" inflame the other party and give each party a chance to find a bridge to see where each other is coming from.. we may have a chance.

Like loveit said.. some things we just won't be able to answer.. but since I'm intellectual.... most of the time I've already considered it and have made my best guess even though sometimes later the Lord shows me where I was wrong.

The longer I walk with God, the more he reveals to me.

Sometimes the intellect desperately needs something tangible to bite into..even if its wrong... just to be happy.

Walking with God means intellect is ok.. but not before his word. We truely don't have to understand everything our Father request of us before we do it... we will usually figure it out later as we mature.

But in todays society where the devil has poisoned us so and the news bombards us with a constant barrage or evil, perverts and wrongs mankind does to each other, we have learned to trust no one and no thing..... even those closest to us, we hold at arms length.

That makes it really hard for a God who means nothing but Good to be trusted.. thats the devils objective!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 12 2007, 07:18 PM) [snapback]404428[/snapback]</div>

Guess I don't need to send in my car payment then.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Mar 13 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]405087[/snapback]</div>

Lol!.. I've heard of stories about folks who ran up the credit cards etc too!.....

Remember that book "88 reasons the rapture will happen in 1988?"... well it didn't happen and allot of people got in trouble...

I guess thats why Jesus made it clear to "occupy till I come"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 13 2007, 11:30 PM) [snapback]405152[/snapback]</div>

Gotta love Jesus's double entendres.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 13 2007, 10:32 PM) [snapback]405176[/snapback]</div>

We are the ones that want to know the exact time and have tried to contrive when it was to pinpoint it.

Jesus wanted us to know the approximate age, but never the exact time.

In fact, he said its only an evil generation that wants a sign so they will not be given one.

The reason an evil generation wants to know is so they can sin up to the last second and then hopefully sneak in and avoid wrath.
Its an insincere motive that seeks to know the exact time.

Why not just relax and do what we've been called to do?.. when it happens it happens, meantime... we occupy till he comes like he said.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 14 2007, 08:02 AM) [snapback]405265[/snapback]</div>

But...but...but...

You're the one who said all the signs are there that the End Times are here for sure!

Seriously, how do you keep your brain from exploding with all these contradictions?

 

Good call Steve0.. just earlier windstrings was cheerleading for the rapture.. because he "knows" it's coming soon.

contradiction after contradiction after hipocritical statement.

gotta love it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Mar 12 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]404377[/snapback]</div>

Your argument, that Lot merely made mistakes, but was righteous in his heart, could just as easily be applied to the people who wanted to rape his guests. Since "nobody's perfect" you could argue that those guys were just as righteous, and that wanting to rape the guests was just a "mistake."

Jesus himself said "you shall know them by their actions." Lot's action, in offering his own daughter to be gang-raped, was a betrayal of the trust that a child has in her father, and was one of the most despicable things any person could do. Saying he was "righteous" in his heart is a worthless argument.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Mar 12 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]404377[/snapback]</div>

I am not anti-god. Richard Dawkins is not anti-god. I am, and he is, anti-religion. There's a big difference. I am not even opposed to belief in fairy tales as such. But when people foist made-up beliefs on others, for the explicit purpose of manipulating them, and when people use religion as an excuse to deny basic human and civil rights to others, then I am very much anti-religion.

I cannot be anti-god because there is no god. I am not anti-unicorn either. But if people started using a belief in unicorns as an excuse to kill each other, then I'd be very much against the belief in unicorns.

As you Jehova's Witnesses are pacifists, I have nothing against your religion or your beliefs. But you are a small minority among Christians. I do not want to change your beliefs one whit. Because, apart from the annoying habit of pestering people on Sunday mornings, you do no harm to anyone. But I have as much right to argue that there is no god, as you have to argue that there is one. And while you base your argument on your interpretation of a book written by people who didn't even understand the cause of thunder, I base mine on the evidence of the world around me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 14 2007, 09:23 AM) [snapback]405363[/snapback]</div>

Steve, I suppose you read into what I wrote, or I didn't make myself clear or was not specific enough..... I never said He's coming tommorrow, or by the end of the year, or by the end of the next 10 years... but he could have came 10 years ago and it would have been legal to do so according to prophecy.

No one knows the hour.....but based on the signs becoming more and more clear, its becoming more and more obvious......

I know you guys don't like scripture, but how can you know what I'm referring to if I don't share scripture?

I'm not thinking this based on my own conjecture.. but rather scripture?

You want me to talk from my heart and leave scripture out so you can tear apart my words easier.....

Let me make something perfectly clear... your struggle is not with my words.... my words mean nothing.....
And my words have no defense without scripture... is that why you don't want to hear it?

Only when I quote scripture that was written with authority do my words then mean something.. because they are not mine.

Here is only one reference.... in this place alone.. I will number the signs and you tell me what has come to pass already recently.... some of these were in Hitlers day too.... people thought the coming was upon them then, but as we see, we're still here.
So no one knows.. but we do know this will be the signs.

Heck, this was written 2000 years ago.... its amazing the Jews still exist?

What If Hitler would have wiped them out, it would be obvious the bible was wrong correct?.. but he didn't because he couldn't. Many things could have destroyed the tiny country of Israel, but God foretold he would scatter them among the nations and then in the last days draw them back together again as a nation from all nations to never to be defeated again.
Although in the last battle, it will come close but he will save then in the end.

Even as many think the bible contradicts itself because they only know it in tiny parts... even so I am misunderstood.

I really try to be fair and give you guys the benifit of a doubt, but you only persist in heckling and casting down by insulting my intentions, accusing me of contradicting myself as if my facts are wrong and I"m purposely evading the truth?....because " you" don't get it and say other rediculous things that offend you if someone says the same things to you... but no one is supposed to get offended when you dish it out right?

If you persist in seeing how long I will turn my check, I will just stop responding.... I really don't have time for you if your not serious and only want to aggrivate.

I have allot I can share and have only scratched the surface of things we can talk about.. but as you don't like being accuses as being a liar... niether do I.

Why do you think its ok to abuse others, but can't take it yourself?

.... the game you enjoy and do best... but you sure seem to squeal if someone does it to you and the whole world falls apart and all of a sudden you justify yoursefl as righteous because you finally successfully provoked someone into giving you back your own medicine?

Do you even see the game you play? Can you be honest for just one minute and stop being defensive long enough to evaluate if your really being unfair?

How about practice some of the same honor you are asking everyone else to give you?

It only makes you seem very self centered when you cannot see the damage you invoke upon others by treating them in ways you don't like to be treated yourself?

I'm not getting paid to talk to you and I have much more rewarding things to do if you don't appreciate my dialouge.

(Luke 21:7 KJV) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

(Luke 21:8 KJV) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for 1. many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

(Luke 21:9 KJV) But 2. when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

(Luke 21:10 KJV) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

(Luke 21:11 KJV) And 3. great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and 4. famines, and 5. pestilences; and 6. fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

(Luke 21:12 KJV) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

(Luke 21:13 KJV) And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

(Luke 21:14 KJV) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

(Luke 21:15 KJV) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

(Luke 21:16 KJV) And 7. ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

(Luke 21:17 KJV) And 8. ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

(Luke 21:18 KJV) But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

(Luke 21:19 KJV) In your patience possess ye your souls.

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And 9. when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21 KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

(Luke 21:23 KJV) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Luke 21:24 KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and 10. Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(Luke 21:25 KJV) 11. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

(Luke 21:26 KJV) 12. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for 13. the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

(Luke 21:27 KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

------------------------
Many Experts have been wrong on foreguessing the timing.... so I"m not going to try to be specific either.

But we know every day is one day closer than the day before and you can read yourself and figure out where we fall in the sequence of just this one passage.

But remember this is only one tiny glimpse of all the scriptures about prophecy.

I have given extensive links and places to study in detail, but I got no response when I did so.

That only makes me think no one is really interested in knowing, but only argueing about its non existence.

How about study yourself?

If it doesn't exist and your sure about it, then why do you persist to argue about it?

You want to discount what I say, but yet dont want to hear scripture... I see this situation as hopeless.
You have chosen not to believe scripture so its credibility is out the window in your mind... so how can I tell you are debate about scripture if you don't want to hear it?

You have basically said, you don't want to hear it?..... is that not correct?

If you tell me you only want to rationalize and be logical, then you will never understand prophecy as it refers to what will happen and it always doesn't look logical or rational that it could ever come to pass.

If you told someone just a measly 200 years ago, you would be talking across the world through a little folding box you hold in your hand they would say your crazy..... just like your telling me now?

Do you remember when the first star trek came out with its comunicators and lasers?.. Hello.. they're here!

Is it really so hard to believe these things will come to pass when they are already almost here?

I remember when I was a child it was very unbelievable that men would really have to have a mark on thier hand or their forehead to buy, sell or trade, or the capitol punishment for not doing so would be beheading.....

Is it so unbelievable now?.....

Its just saying, don't be in bondage to the limitations of rational and logic that you have grown to so fondly trust in.

And why do you think your so desperate to not consider that your world could quickly come to an end?
All it takes is one bozo to do the wrong thing in the middle east and we are immediately in a different world.

According to scripture, the biggest mistake people would be making in the last days is to be assuming everything will continue as it always has.

Seems the only think you like hearing is that everything will be ok and that your ok and that we are in no danger?.... do you realize that? All I hear is "don't give me anything that provokes fear"... that can't be from God!... Oh really?

(Mat 24:48 NKJV) "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'

(Mat 24:49 NKJV) "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,

(Mat 24:50 NKJV) "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,


I share this next passage of scripture.. please don't tell me I'm preaching hell fire and brimstone....
Its just the word.. thats all... take it as you will.

(2 Pet 3:3 NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
(2 Pet 3:4 NKJV) and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
(2 Pet 3:5 NKJV) For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
(2 Pet 3:6 NKJV) by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
(2 Pet 3:7 NKJV) But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]405852[/snapback]</div>

'legal to do so'

Wow. Just when I thought you could not take the cake any further, you say that. 'legal to do so'.

So, let me get this straight: Christ could not show up, any sooner then ten years ago, since that would not be legal for the Son of God to do so?

Oy. I mean, wow. Really stunning. In my life, I have never, ever heard such a statement. I will have to remember this one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]405852[/snapback]</div>

ALAN, you are sounding like two different people. On the one hand, you often belittle people, call them unitelagent, tell then their facts are wrong, and you dish it out towards a lot of people...then, on this hand, you act as if you never do these things, and are shocked, shocked, that anyone is attacking you?

If what you have done, is in your view, 'fair' then, I would hate to see what unfair is to you.

BTW, facts are like assholes: Everyone has one. And while you think some of y our facts are correct, there are those who don't think your facts are correct. And to make matters worse, for you at least, not one of your facts can be corroborated. As much as you want to go on, and on, about the Bible being 100% correct, there is no scientific way to determine the validity of the Bible. Again, I will spell this out for you: We do not have any hand written original manuscripts; no existing autographs, as it were. Even among dyed in the wool Bible scholars, many even more conservative then you, they believe some of the Bible has auspicious origins; for instance, not everyone believes that Paul wrote all that is attributed to him. Some of what he wrote is Pauline in nature, but could have been forged. Take Hebrews' The letter to the Hebrews is anonymous, yet many think it is Paul who wrote it. Lately, however, the tradition of Pauline authorship is not reliable, and there are in fact, serious reasons to consider this assertion.

Luke, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphras, Silas, Priscilla and others have been suggested as possible authors, but in reality we simple do not know who wrote this book.

I trust you will someday gather to your bosom a decent Bible, one that is called a 'Study' Bible, and read between the passages.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]405852[/snapback]</div>

Practice, sir, what I preach: Be kind to one another. If you do that, ALAN, then others will respond in kind to you. And if you can not see the damage you have done for your cause (i.e. recruiting people to Christ), by belittling people, then I can see how they respond to you; by treating you as you treat them.

I too, am not getting paid to talk to you or anyone else. I have, however, found all this dialogue, both negative and positive, very rewarding.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]405852[/snapback]</div>

I see the KJV is back; couldn't stand a little more modern version then?

(Kidding about the KJV)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]405852[/snapback]</div>

Now, I am a fan of STAR TREK, so, it pains me to say this, but the show was called SCIENCE fiction for a reason; they were peeking into the future a bit, and man, did they manage to predict some things fairly accurately.

Other things, like the Eugenics war, in the 1990's, well...I did not see that. Did I miss something? Oh, and another thing: Star Trek, as cool as it was, is still NOT REAL. So to equate that with Revelation and The End Times...well, it does not service your argument very well. In fact, one could argue that since you can't seem to separate Star Trek from the Bible, one could therefore see how your views are erroneous at best.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 15 2007, 01:46 AM) [snapback]405937[/snapback]</div>

And that, right there, is the problem with religion in a nutshell. There is no test which can prove whether or not God exists. The situation is not entirely different in any other science - we cannot prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, anything at all! Science is a "best-fit" model of what we know - as more data becomes available, our knowledge will change. But "best guess" has gotten us pretty darn far.

So, if both religion and science are "best guess", why not believe religion? It comes down to a matter of evidence. If you don't require your beliefs to be backed up by hard reproducable experiments and sound calculations, then anything can be a religion. The Star Wars Expanded Universe is a very compelling, expansive, and remarkably consistent set of canon. We cannot prove that such events did not occur "a long time ago" in "a galaxy far, far away".

Your argument for the credibilty of religion boils down to an argument of intent. You argue that the scripture was written to reflect truth. I argue that such an assertion is unfounded.

Science doesn't speculate on the intent of an author. Scientists didn't just "trust" Fleischmann and Pons, they were skeptical and scrutinized their work - and, as a result, error was uncovered. Maybe we'll discover in 20 years that Fleischmann was right all along. The key is to be open minded yet skeptical. This seems like a contradiction to many, and it's probably why skeptics are so frequently accused of "having a closed mind". This could not be further from the truth. I am willing to believe just about anything, given the proper evidence. Intel-based Macs were nothing but rumor just two years ago, and as a skeptic, I doubted (for a variety of reasons). But my opinion changed the instant that reports started to pour in as developers received their x86 development systems.

That's what science is all about. Be willing to accept the possiblity that you are wrong (you most likely are), but insist that such theories be backed with credible evidence. Of course, religion is designed to circumvent that provision quite nicely. Your God cannot be measured or recorded. And, in fact, real evidence contradicts key points in the scripture. You know this, but you're smart enough to get around that too - after all, perhaps God planted that evidence just to test our faith? Or, perhaps the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally at all.

There is so much that I do not understand about Christianity. I'm sure you'll come up with compelling and highly intellectual arguments for why I'm wrong. I wouldn't expect anything less. But why don't we save some time and end this silly argument. It's like arguing with me about the death penalty - no quantity of well-reasoned rhetoric is going to convince me that it's OK for the government to sanction the killing of a human being, no matter how heinous their crime. And no amount of rhetoric is going to convice me that I should believe in a set of beliefs unsupported by fact.

I'm an electrical engineering student. In 30 years, we've gone from having virtually no programmable logic devices to FPGAs that cost pennies and hold tens of thousands of configurable gates. FPGAs are so fundamental to our curriculum today that it's difficult to imagine teaching digital logic without them. Yet they didn't even exist when most of my professors were undergraduate students! And that's just one aspect of one field in one discipline.

We've come so far and learned so much in so little time. Perhaps someday, when we understand more about our universe, we will be able to answer some of the more fundamental questions we face today. But, until that day, I think that it's foolish to answer "God" when the real answer is "We don't know".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 15 2007, 01:46 AM) [snapback]405937[/snapback]</div>

Kinda like you are being kind right now you mean?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 15 2007, 01:46 AM) [snapback]405937[/snapback]</div>

I didn't ever realize I had used it and sometimes it says it best... I learned Gods word through KJV and so when the Lord speaks to me, he brings back to my rememberance thorough that version... then I have to take that verse and bounce it to another just for you.

The more modern the translation gets, the more slant it seems to get too with a few exceptions.

You condemned the KJV and then said you were kidding.... but I understand it better as the modern versions leave much out in the meaning IMO in the translations.. I can show you tons of instances....

But I wasn't even talking about you in my earlier statements as you have been civil until now.

When everybody is stroking your feathers its easy to hang in there, but as soon as I vent frustration to "others" about how it gets weary only get spit on when I keep offering honest answers from my heart and what I believe.

I have no business out here anymore and I will return it to your discourse........ I think I wore my welcome out long ago... and btw.. there is a big difference in correction and ridicule and belittleing... you don't see the difference coming at you and you don't see the difference as you speak it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 15 2007, 03:08 AM) [snapback]405931[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, he would have, like, gotten a ticket or something. Since he IS the son of God, I assume it would have been brought down to a minor offense (if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that having connections is helpful).