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Product is there, but no ones looking.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by porkfriedrice, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>
    I fully agree, both of them can be classified as trolls. Their only purpose to disrupt the forum. I have yet to see any interesting or good information from them apart from the normal GM propganda. It doesn't matter how long you are on a forum, if you are a troll you are a troll. Go look at all malorn's threads he started and posts.
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 14 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]390252[/snapback]</div>
    I disagree. (Except for Godiva's statement that PC belongs to Danny and he can do as he pleases.) Otherwise, this is a public forum. And Danny has declared that in Fred's "The First Amendment is your friend." Nobody has to open this thread, read it, or post to it. Malorn owns a GM dealership. That's public knowledge, and I don't think he tries to conceal it. While his posts are consistently pro-GM and anti-Toyota, his bias is well-known and nobody has to read the threads he starts. Danny has chosen to allow him to post, and that's good enough for me. I seldom spend much time in his threads. But then, I open a very small percentage of threads on PC. I spend a lot of time here, and even so I don't have the time to read or participate in all the threads.

    I don't know why PFR decided to come to a Prius chat board to argue in favor of GM against Toyota, intentionally putting himself (or herself) in the situation of being almost unanimously opposed. But I don't know why people get their tongues pierced, either. It's a free country (or was before W) and Danny has declared Fred's a free forum.

    But I think PFR serves a purpose: The sort of arguments she (or he) makes are ones you may hear anywhere cars or trade are discussed, and less-educated PC members now have the opportunity to see those arguments refuted by those PC members that have more knowledge of the issues.

    PFR makes some arguments that I believe are flawed, but makes them in a civil manner, in a venue where anyone can reply, and unlike some of the more acrimonious discussions we've seen, he/she keeps a cool head and responds to those replies.

    Whether PFR is really 14, I suppose we'll never know, but I take arguments on their own merit, without regard to the person making them. After all, I don't know if Godiva is really posting on PC while sitting naked on a horse, either. (Though I give her the benefit of the doubt.)
     
  3. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 14 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]390252[/snapback]</div>
    Said it before, but I have yet to hear of any country on the face of this Earth that allows someone to militantly and/or persistantly go to a business, place of worship, some other organization, and ruin their association (and free speech). So where is this notion that on the internet it's OK to do that without harm?

    PFK seems to have left, which is the proper thing to do after he made his case (although I can't rule out him returning under an alias).

    I'd likely do like Godiva and explicitly state coming solely to disrupt is not allowed or "free speech" if it were me. That's just asking for common civility and no trolling.
     
  4. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 14 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]390326[/snapback]</div>
    I agree. If you don't like this discussion, you're free to not participate. But don't try to ban other people just because you disagree. Then you're putting yourself in George W's company by controlling free expression of others. PFR is more civil than many responders on this thread.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 14 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]390348[/snapback]</div>
    How was PFR militantly or insistently trying to disrupt our forum? We responded because it was an interesting topic to explore. Otherwise we'd simply ignore the post. I don't understand your logic at all.


    Back to the subject, here's an interesting GM vs. Toyota comparison put out by NPR (and it's not liberal-biased, sorry):
    http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/
     
  5. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Feb 14 2007, 01:48 PM) [snapback]390349[/snapback]</div>
    You're not taking this in context I put it at all.

    A tiny fraction of the 1% of people that have joined PC are being disruptive (trolling). That could be joining and being outright tasteless, such as spamming or posting obsencities, or joining only to undermine the purpose of a forum such as the kind of GM propaganda PFK was making, even if it seemed civil on the surface. You know full well intollerance to trolls is not remotely as broad as GWB's interpretation of free expression - the vast majority of expression here is not of the trolling variety. I suppose you would consider Godiva a Bush supporter?

    Nerfer if you still differ, could you post a link that documents a country where people can freely disrupt a business, place of worship, an association - just like trollers do on the net? If you can't, does that mean all governments are oppressive?
     
  6. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>
    He did not post anyone's private information. All he did was to link a GIF that is programmed to show each member his or her own IP Address and ISP when viewing the image. No one saw anyone else's internet connection details.
     
  7. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    Im getting fed up. I am an eighth grader. Im sorry if im smart, but there it is. I wont give personal information away but if there was someway to prove it I would. And even if i was stoopid enough to, against everything ive learned from netsmart in school and the like, I would be afraid for my life and security from half the people here. Ill be honest. This is really mostly the second forum Ive really got into. I got into cars because I liked them, not realizing that people would really care this much about the topic as say compared to politics. It seemed like a light hobby at the time, not really deserving of so much hate and feeling on either side. I guess I was naive.

    The first forum I was in was a GM one, and I only started posting recently. I came here so I could get a balenced view of both sides, because I was afraid that only seeing it from one side would twist my view. I came to this site because I had a question about the Prius, and I thought everyone seemed reasonably reasonable, and I could get some intellegent replys to more points. As for Prius I think it is a great car and a step in the right direction for the car industry. Its not really first in anything as far as I can tell, but a great car for rational people that either care for the enviroment or the people living in it. Ive also seen people that bought one just for use of a carpool lane or just for looking like they care or for believe it or not, prestige. Nonetheless a great car. I guess I thoght the people behind the wheels of those things would be similary ratinal.

    I have nothing personal against toyota, and if you read the title of this post I am talking about the gap of perception and reality on the domestics part. Some of my answers might have talked about the lack of a level playing ground, and the reasons why the domestics have the reputaion that they do, but I mean nothing bad twords toyota at all.

    I am against all bias, as it clouds the mind and leaves some blind to new thought and ideas. I want nothing more but to learn and I wish the same for everyone. I got interested by cars rather recently like maybe less than two years ago or even less. I dont think I know that much and that is why im here, Specifically to learn from a different perspective.

    I am not preaching patriotism as a reason to buy domestic. To be american means little more than to reside somewhere in what is marked as part of the USA. What american means to me though, is the following of beliefs of what our nation was founded on, Truth, Liberty, and Justice. As such, you have the choice to buy any car you want, including Japanese. The truth part means though, that ignoring anything simply because of color, race, or in this case, nationality, is wrong, even American things. Or maybe youre right. Maybe America doesnt forgive anyone. Hell, look at England, we broke away from them with the help of France. and we never forgave them! And also, Look at WW2! Italy, Germany, and Japan all ended on the wrong side of the war (ie: not ours) and look where theyre economies and especially respective auto industries are! Yep one helluva nation, preaching forgiveness and acceptance but when someone tries to say the same thing about something american, its passed off as pointless patriotic bullshit.

    I have never said I dont like toyota. I only said I support GM, more specifically theyre latest moves, which include the funding of hydrogen reserch and the volt. And interestingly in this year, GM is unvieling a host of new cars while, kind of ironically, Toyota is unvieling its new trucks. (I mean nothing against toyota still) I also support Toyota for its green image, though i am still not sure it is that much more deserved than GM's, or lack thereof.

    I came here to learn more, not to be flamed, so please try to resist. I dont know a lot about this side of the arguement and thats percisely why i came. Maybe ill change my signature.

    As for reading this, I dont think anyone is forcing you to read this, as Daniel has mentioned. Also if there is one thing I have learned from school, Its to ignore the ones there jus to piss you off. Its not that hard.

    In the end, the big 2.5 have had major hinderances (and still do) and its still not a level playing ground ( if it ever has been. I'm not whining, merely stating facts. They have made mistakes in the past but who hasnt? I really doubt Toyota or any other corperation guilt free.

    Maybe I should leave. I dont think i'm getting any new knowlege and what i am, has very little to do with cars and rather more with the people. The domestics cant and wont get better if no ones going to give them a chance, or even glance in their direction.

    I am also a he for anyone that cares to know. and also 14. I would really like someone to tell me what I have to gain from lying about my age. Seriously. I think it was a bad idea. Now people are using my age as an excuse not to listen, so what was the point of that? Malorn watch out as bias affects everyone, it doesnt care which side youre on. Some people here are using U as an excuse not to listen to domestic supporters, ( i guess that means me) because you, as well as others on this site, are seeing a one sided view, and that doesnt help anyone.

    If everyone just kept an open mind this world would be a much better place.
     
  8. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Most adults don't dress like 14-year olds - it's tacky. Neither do they pull fire alarms. Some adults in cyberspace are not mature enough to understand this.
     
  9. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    Hello porkfriedrice,

    I don’t doubt that you are in 8th grade. I’ve judged middle school and high school speech and debate tournaments and found the level of discussion and presentation to be above the level of a lot of adults

    To everyone else, if you don't like this thread, don't read and post to it!

    To get back to your title for this thread for me the product just isn’t there and I did look. Let me explain. I started looking for an additional vehicle in 2005. My wife drives a 03 VW Jetta Wagon TDI that has averaged 48 mpg over the last 130k miles (85% highway, 15% city). I had been riding a 02 BWM R1150R motorcycle that has averaged 41 mpg over the last 25K miles (80% city, 20% highway). The TDI gets pretty good mileage and is as large a vehicle as we would ever need. I set mpg as my number one priority when researching for a new car. I set a combine fuel mileage of 35 mpg as the minimum acceptable fuel mileage. I then went to www.fueleconomy.gov and searched for vehicles with mileage over 35 mpg. Below you will see the 10 vehicles that meet the criteria.

    Honda Insight ------------ 63
    Toyota Prius -------------- 55
    Honda Civic Hybrid ----- 48
    VW Beetle TDI ---------- 41
    VW Golf TDI ------------ 41
    VW Jetta TDI ------------ 41
    VW Jetta Wagon TDI --- 39
    Honda Civic -------------- 39
    Toyota Echo ------------- 38
    Toyota Corolla ---------- 36

    As you can see there is not a single GM, Ford, and Chrysler product on the list. Here are the highest mileage cars for the domestics

    Dodge Neon ------------- 32
    Ford Focus --------------- 31
    Chevy Aveo ------------- 30

    No domestic automaker was even close to meeting my requirements so there was no reason to even consider buying domestic car. At this point I was basically choosing between a used Echo and a used Golf TDI. I had decided against the hybrids because of all the reports that they didn’t get anywhere near the EPA mileage. Then I had a chance to rent a Civic Hybrid. I drove it from San Francisco to Yosemite and back and got 49 mpg over those 400 miles. That pretty much sold me on hybrids. I looked for a Civic but no one had one within 400 miles so I started looking for a Prius. Needless to say I got a good deal on a 2005 at a car lot 3 miles from my house. So far I have average 46 mpg with the Prius, which makes my motorcycle the gas-guzzler of the family.
     
  10. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    Read my above reply if youre not going to contribute anything to actually help move this topic along and on course. Nerfer, as always, has shown to be clear headed and fair. I only wish everyone was. While half of you were trying to ban me a lexus owner starte posting on a GM forum and the members opend and honestly answered any and all question without bias. I was impressed.

    Sorry for any confuision but this is a general discusion about the entire industry as a whole, so while i commend and applaud your decision to buy a Prius and a car to fit your needs, as long as you will consider a domestic car in the future with compareable attributes, Im fine with you. Even as it might not be appropriate to the site as some will point out, but I also came across a quaint little thread where the entire point was to post two words. then one just to ask a question. I dont think this is any less relevent, though i could be wrong.

    With the site Nerfer gave I found some quick facts. Here are added opinions.

    GM is running on its 100th aneversary here while Toyota is running on its 22nd year of producing cars here.

    GM sells 7 compared to 4 by Toyota (Havn't heard of Hino?)

    GMs bestseller was a truck, which america taste for still seems strong compareded to its favorite car, the camry, which enjoys sales about two thirds as much. And the silverado isnt even Americas best selling truck. That in line with America's taste enough for you?

    Next, GM make about 4 times the number of cars in NA than Toyota. think about that and put it into perspective.

    Gm loses roughly twice as much as Toyota gains per vehicle. Tell me how is it possible for GM or any domestic automaker, whose sole purpose is to make money selling cars to survive like this?

    The losses vs gains in GM vs Toyota is astounding.

    GM has 77 plants in North America. all unionized. Toyota has 3 unionized. 9 that arnt.


    GM:
    White collar: 36,000
    Production: 106,000.
    Retirees: 460,000

    Toyota:
    White collar: 17,000
    Production: 21,000
    Retirees: 1,600

    Really speaks for iself. How many more americans are affected by GM than Toyota? Also I assume retirees are alive so factor in the the retiree salery GM pays also.

    GM on average pays every worker 31.35 per hour to Toyotas 27 per hour.

    Health Care costs about 7.5 more for GM than Toyota, with GM at $1525 and $201.

    The average labor cost per US Hourly worker is $73.73 compared to Toyotas $48.

    All this is just part of the extra expenses for the Domestics.
    This is only part of the disadvantages for the US automakers, not even the advantages for the Japanese. If you dont believe that taking advantage currency imbalence is possible, as the Euopeans, which are always getting screwed even with the Euro to the Dollar. Thats why they arnt cheap.
     
  11. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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  12. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 14 2007, 07:48 PM) [snapback]390545[/snapback]</div>
    Ah, now the whining about the poor helpless American companies. Let me explain that I have around 25 years experience in industrial process control, I’m a systems analyst: HART, DeviceNet, ControlNet, ProfiBus DP/PA, Foundation FieldBus, AS-I Bus, etc.

    I noticed a trend around 1992 or so: a lot of the discussion about advanced digital process automation was being ignored or outright dismissed by “traditional†American companies, certainly those located within the U.S.

    The company I contract for does a lot of embedded development, and a lot of digital process sensor design and modification. It’s a global operation based in Europe. One would think American companies would be beating down the doors to get the latest, most advanced, most efficient process systems.

    On the contrary.

    Last time I was in the U.S. on business was Spring 2001. The client was a large petrochemical company. I was really surprised the refinery still had pneumatic 5-15 psi process loops. That stuff is +40 years old, never mind the analog 4-20 mA loops.

    To take that refinery from a cold shutdown to “in spec†would take around 3 weeks, non-stop. As far as process charts, the UCL and LCL variation was like a buckshot pattern, all over the place. They only wanted to do rudimentary process loop tuning, any mention of forklift upgrades of their entire system brought a “it’s the way we’ve always done it.â€

    That comment from an industry that has enjoyed RECORD profits. What are they putting back into their process control? Zip.

    Over the past 8 years, the real action in digital process control has been in … China. Since they had a rather primitive industrial base, it was easy to convince them of wholesale upgrades.

    Consider a similar petrochemical firm in China, the giant SECCO complex. It’s the world’s largest ethylene cracker, a very impressive state-of-the-freaking-art industrial plant. All the process control is digital bus, using mostly Foundation FieldBus sensors and actuators. Not a pneumatic loop in sight. Guess how long it took them to go from cold start to in-spec?

    11 hours.

    The QC is ultra-tight too, basically a flat line bisecting UCL and LCL. At this point, I had better become fluent in Mandarin. All the future projects in our pipeline are in Asian countries, a few in the EU.

    Now, you tell me how any chemical or manufacturing company in the U.S. has a hope to compete? I can see if they are perennial money losers, but an industrial segment like petrochemicals that is enjoying record profits, they still refuse to improve their bottom line by a minimum 30% by updating the equipment. Explain that to me please.

    As far as those “evil†Asians whopping our butts, who do we have to blame? Take a cold hard look at executive decisions at American companies. It seems you have a real contempt for unionized workers, but they are almost totally disenfranchised from business decisions. What has management done, except sit on their fat butts?

    What has the all-knowing all-seeing gov done? Various Administrations have done nothing at all. I would have thought all the racist rhetoric from the neo-conservatives would have at least turned around American industry, yet the opposite happened. Explain that please.

    Oh, and you never did reply to my comments about “safe†lithium ion batteries, or “clean†diesel motors
     
  13. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    PFR, funny that you are up at 2:30am on a school night???? How do you explain that? Either way your age is irrelevant, it is only relevant as it is a claim you make that some points have made it hard to believe. ANyway go read your own posts and think about it. No need to respond to this part of my post.

    Either way you finally are gettign somewhere. SKip the blah blah nonsense and get down to facts.

    Loosing or making money on a vehicle is up to how well a company is run. Obviously if you loose money on the product you sell it is very hard to stay in business. That is the thing GM needs to address. No need to respoind to this either, very simple economics.

    Now go pull the 2006 numbers and list it for US only, don't list NA. SO exclude Canada and Mexico, last I checked they were different countries (although some folsk might disagree). I await your numbers, that will be good way to spend time researching your passion. Remember to site your references for the numbers you use.

    Also get the worker numbers in the US, not NA. I don't believe the overwhelming workforce in Mexico and Canada are americans (as in US residents or citizens).

    Now compare the 2 companies again, that will be more interesting to see. I hate it when the US is NA when it suites folsk and not when it doesn't.

    Also list US only sales for GM and Toyota.

    Lastly name me the GM brand cars (not trucks you would buy). It is much easier talking about numbers, but lets look at the product. What GM car would buy instead of a Corolla, Prius, Camry, Yaris adn hell even a Avalon. The only 2 interesting cars I can find from GM are the Corvette and the small Caddy, neither even competes with any Toyota offering (OK, maybe the Caddy with a Lexus).

    My point is that we didn't forget about GM or don't want to look there way. It is GM forgot about us and didn't want to look our way. Change the way GM looks at the market and their products and you will see that the market will look different at GM. Beat GM's door down not ours.

    So there is my post. Direct and to the point. Respond in a direct and to the point way, with the facts and references as requested above, if you are serious about a discussion on this topic. Otherwise you will simply expose yourself as just another troll coming here to blow of steam, create disruption, etc.
     
  14. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 14 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]390326[/snapback]</div>

    I'm sorry. I thought this was a clothing optional forum.

    Can the horse stay if he's house trained?
     
  15. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 14 2007, 02:09 PM) [snapback]390366[/snapback]</div>
    That's the whole point. Someone arguing the benefits of another car manufacturer in the appropriate forum is not disrupting our group. I don't consider spam and posting obscenities the same as discussing car companies, given that this is a car-based message board. If he was repeatedly posting to the Prius news forum, each of which gets shown on the front page, or putting the same message in all active threads, then yes, you'd definitely have a point. But this is a single thread in friggin' FHOP for crying out loud - exactly where this type of discussion is supposed to be. "the first amendment is your friend" here.

    He is making arguments that some of us are opposed to (including me to a degree), so it's not unlikely to generate some heated debate. But this is the kind of thing we're exposed to from time-to-time with our neighbors, co-workers, families. We had better be able to handle this kind of talk. But if you can't handle it, stay out of this particular thread. I've excused myself from some political threads for that reason, many of which are started for the sole purpose of generating controversy.
     
  16. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    nerfer,

    There are at least two (gross understatement) other members that have the same issues with PFK.

    There is also the issue of being an imposter. If you honestly believe PFK to be an 8th grader, there are realitors that would sell you land in the 7th Ward of New Orleans or South Florida. If someone is not honest about themselve, it's hard to believe anything they say.

    There is someone that works for GM at GreenHybrid. While there is not much I agree with him on, he knows his facts and I don't doubt his credentials. He distinguishes himself further from PFK by occasionally putting his viewpoint rather than relentlessly posting content that is not factual. One can have an opposing point of view without being an agitator - martinjlm is absoultly not an agitator or troller at GreenHybrid.

    There are so many things that can be done to describe a troller and it's subjective to a degree, but the bottom line is disruption. Just evaluate the "contribution" of PFK to this thread. I'm not holding my breath that members outside of yourself or PFK are going to characterize them as positive - we even had a moderator say this thread was going nowhere.

    So why not move on to something productive?
     
  17. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    First off.

    You cant manipulate an average. Its true. Again you cant cite one example as representatin of the entire industry. And if Toyota commenly paid more, why is that story even headline news? This is the frist example i have seen and it isnt the first time ive seen it. If you want facts there waiting. I got these facts from the site nerfer gave me. Maybe if i hadnt said anything no one would be so eager to totally discard this new piece of information. and if your bar example was true, thered have to be one REALLY expensive fatory. why not just kill it and use one of the other SEVENTY SEVEN.

    jayman, im sorry but i dont get what you are talking about. But as far as I know and my history teacher has told me, After WW2 all the factories and stuff were a lot easier to replace in countries like Germany and Japan mostly because they werent there. They had been destoyed. In america, to compete with new tech thed have to destory all the old tech and build/buy entirely new ones. Yoyu cant expect everyone to upgrade to the new and latest all of a sudden, especially in this age. U dont scrap your old comp if a new one came out a month later that had slightly better memory or processing power or whatever. If it works i guess, thats what I use. I have an ipod i listen to, a 30 gig thats nearly filled. yet when I heard of a new realease, of the new ipods, did i go out and just buy a new one? no.
    As for evil asian, if you bothered to read the rest of hte thread before posting, you would see that I am Chinese. Im sorry I cant find your 'clean' lithium comment but for diesels my point was that the two major reasons I see for good mpg is Price-the savings, and Enviroment-saving it. what did you own before a Prius? I very much doubt you would go though so much hardship just to save the enviroment driving a diesel or simply a small car. As for price, diesels and small cars use the least amout of money I believe, at the pump. and always have compared to the average American car. correct me if im wrong. Or hell, jus buy a used american car, their horrible resale value, and therefore great price, will probably save all you ever spend on gas.

    I thought we were done with the age bashing.

    The reason they lose money is the amount of money subtracted by extra costs such as pension fees and retirement as well as health care. thats why they sold SUVs. The extra profit margin, Im guessing, is what kept them afloat so long. How do you solve legacy costs? well, Japan pays for all their automakers. and Mercedes hasnt figgered out how to solve hat either, with Chysler. Chrysler has been rumored of being spun off. Chinese companies could easily use it to enter the US market. why not? the main reasons from them include fully unionized workers and the aforementioned legacy costs. What does that say to me?

    Ive also stated that there is very free trade within our borders in NA, so if the money goes to workers outside, Chances are then not, itll be reinvested in the US. unlike japan. look at the trade deficit. simple economics i guess. So simple the US goverment must be retarded not for fix something so simple for so long.

    for comparason.
    corolla- cobalt. its compareable, and if you care for any driving dynamics, itll be the chevy. Mostly because Toyota hasnt bothered to update it for a while, but hey, its selling (sound familier?)

    I cant name one for the prius. ive already stated that.

    Camry, an Aura. the NORTH AMERICAN JUDGES FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN CAR OF THE YEAR THOUGHT SO TOO. this is like the 5th time ive said it. god. its like everyone is ignoring points i made jus to restate and then try to knock any credibility off by accusing the source. lookit up. It beat the Camry.

    Yaris-Aveo. really now. the aveo has bad mpg for its size but otherwise a decent car.

    Avalon- Buick Lucerne. these more but this is the best. Try to actually buy one. its so underated youll get it probably even cheaper than an Avalon. Everything in the car is good. The only complaints I have ever heard is sedate styling. Which if you compare the Avalon to, im sure it wont be too much of a problem.

    Look at everything GM has been doing RECENTLY. thats all i can say now. jus a chance. thats all im asking. will it really hurt that much to open your heart that it actually could be compareable or even better?

    delta flyer, I thought you saw the light. im really confused. what would I have to gain by lying about my age? tell me now im curious. I thought youd already answered above but apparently not.

    some call me ignorant and naive, others lying about my age which seems to young. I am now hearing I am both.

    Im not starting any battles or even accusing anyone of any wrongdoing. yet I am being contantly under attack. Im trying to be productive but everyone seems to like to come back into petty arguement about who I really am.

    To end, id rather get creative and thoughtful critisisem with facts rather than praise. And below both of these, by a clear margin I might add, is targeting my personal information and trying to discredit everyword i say. Please, im begging you please, if youre not even gunna talk about this subject(as in the original topic of this thread), or even cars, please leave. You serve no purpose here and I will have no choise but to ignore you.



    Look at all my threads, I have tried nothing but to represent the other side of the arguement that either no one chooses to see, or is badly misrepresented. Read all of my threads as i might of already answered your question. Ive always tried hard to address everyones points, but recently I find myself defending me rather than what the topic was about.
     
  18. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    Funny how you avoid real data. So you just have proven to be a waste of time. NA vs US numbers require some real homework, obviously too much of an effort for a topic you feel passoniate about????

    The corolla vs cobalt, get real! Have you even went and looked at them in person??

    Aveo vs Yaris, hmmmmmm. You are very funny. BTW where is the Aveo build?

    I don't even want to waste my time to go further. It serves no point.

    You have provided zero new or interesting information to back your argument. My initial impression was correct, you are just here to troll. No detailed data and references, no new or interesting infromation. Thus no point in discussing anything further.
     
  19. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    Do not feed the trolls.
     

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  20. vuapplepudding

    vuapplepudding New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]390464[/snapback]</div>
    porkfriedrice,

    I commend you on your search for additional information and perspective plus coming to PC to learn and discuss.

    As for bias: There will be a time in your future life when you might be making minimum wage at a McD, BK, TB or some entry level job just making ends meet when you might have to decide to buy a car. (assuming that your mommy or daddy does not buy a car for you)
    You will ask yourself: should I buy a car that will LAST, has great gas mileage, low repairs, and looks good or should I buy a car based on a company's vision of the future?

    No matter what company you want to SUPPORT, you will have to finally make a decision (with bias in mind based on some of the above criteria and financial situtation) and select a vehicle of your choice.

    You might be surprised how your decisions might change when you are not under the comfort of your parent's shelter, food, clothing, internet access, etc.

    In fact, without mom or dad's help, you might remain without a car totally. Your choice. Public transportation is a viable option too.

    Just wait until you are in High School. I bet you or your potential prom dates will sure have bias at that time.

    Hum, how do you like bias now?