Hybrid cars are too quiet: Risk Pedestrian Safety

The key phrase in the article is "... were in the middle of an intersection". Where I come from, pedestrians crossing the street have the right of way and the driver was in the wrong *regardless* of the type of vehicle he was driving.

One of the residents on my street is blind and also walks with a guide dog. I've had to wait a few times for her to cross my driveway before pulling in. The first time she was a bit puzzled by the sound of my tires stopping in the street (I had been stealthing) but she appears to have gotten used to the sound.

Kudos to the guide dog.

 

Hmmm. Interesting dilemma.

The only fair thing would be for Toyota to level the playing field for blind and sighted people by using nano-scale engineered metamaterials that will make future versions of the Prius invisible as well as silent.

Science Reveals Secrets of Invisibility :blink:
Theoretical Blueprint for Invisibility Cloak Reported

Perhaps someone clever could come up with an invisibility button to go into one of the two remaining slots next to where the EV button is supposed to go.

 

As someone who has several blind friends, I can tell you first hand: They HATE my Prius.

The ones who are fully blind, they go by traffic noise to figure out when it's safe to cross the street. A couple have stepped off the sidewalk, assuming it's safe to go, only to be ALMOST plowed into by a Prius.

 

This seems to be a real problem. But we arrived at this dilemma because cars made noise and we got used to that noise. If cars never had noise, we would have arrived at a different way of doing things. And if we now go to cars that don't make noise, society will learn to cope.

But this is not the reason I added to this thread. I read recently about an electric car in Europe that emits a recording of a horse walk, trot or gallop, depending on the speed of the car. It's just a prototype. I thought it was cute.

 

>>The National Federation of the Blind, an advocacy group, says all hybrid vehicles
>> should emit a sound while turned on and is calling on the auto industry to make changes.
>> The group says the sound should be loud enough to be heard over the din of other ambient noise.


Well as someone else on this thread pointed out this occurred "in the middle of the intersection".

Either the Prius driver was in the wrong in which case him/her making "noise" would not have made him/her a better driver in my opinion or the blind person was walking when they should not have. In this case regardless of who is at fault, both persons then acted properly. The Prius driver did the responsible thing and stopped the vehicle and the guide dog as well stopped his master from walking into the vehicle. This is how it is suppose to work!

Adding to the current levels of noise pollution that already are too high in my opinion, especially in more urban areas, does not seem like a valid solution, perhaps even make it more difficult for those with visual handicaps to distinguish "good" noise from "bad" noise.

If I need to make noise, I always have the horn button but most folks HATE horns! If we decide to use our horns like certain other countries (I leave nameless so as not to anger anyone) people then get use to them, only to be ignored as just another meaningless noise.

Lastly, may I say for myself, if my Prius makes more noise, it will not make me a safer driver. Using common sense, driving defensively, and obeying the current driving laws already on the books will be much more effective in making safe our visually impaired friends who walk our streets!

Best wishes to all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04 @ Feb 13 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]389938[/snapback]</div>

What a great idea! I want a Prius with the external sound option that makes it sound like a 1966 Ford 427 Cobra Roadster.

Keith

 

Chickens don't cross the roads in Honolulu.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbc.../702130356/1001

 

Gosh if they hate the Prius, they would really hate my Tercel EV. The Prius is noisy when the gas motor is on most of the time and even more noisy with the A/C turned on. I think they should ban those gas gazzler cars and motorcycles with the 4 inch exhaust tips that you can hear a mile away. I enjoy quiet time, and it would be great if all cars were low noise emission vehicles. If people were really concerned with pedestrian safety they would build more of those cool pedestrian bridges that get people far away from stupid drivers instead of having to dart in front of them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(toyotablackbox @ Feb 13 2007, 08:53 PM) [snapback]389976[/snapback]</div>

Now that is an idea, Get the road back for cars and keep walkers, byclers, etc. on to their own paths, let them get licenplates also to pay for their paths, Injuries and deths go down. Now what to do with skate boaders and high speed runners, Oh i know give them a HOV lane reserved for Human other vehicles. :lol:

 

I'm going to have to go ahead and say this was written by a PR group for one of the automakers getting their butts kicked by hybrids.

They keep generalizing to "hybrids" yet in specifics only talk about the Prius - in particular the slow roll going on in that photo would include an audible gas engine in many other hybrid designs.

Has anyone ever heard a well-tuned luxury car? You send one of those past me at 15mph or whatever very low speed that picture would have to have been taken at to be all-electric and I'll bet it's LESS audible than a Prius running gas-off. The Prius does make noise in electric mode, it's just a mixed one of both tires rolling (familiar as "car") and electric motor (unfamiliar). Nevermind bicycles, are we banning luxury cars now?

The maximum danger the current Prius could pose to a blind person is a 40mph Glide with no gas running and only a faint buzz of the PSD turning, combined with the familiar tire sound - though that may admittedly be quieter than most cars because of the Low Rolling Resistance tires.

Nonetheless that is an increased danger to the blind, and 40mph isn't messing around. The danger here is that some stupid politician actually picks up on this and attempts to "solve" it by requiring cars be loud.

If we want to legitimately solve the problem, we could require cars broadcast on a specific AM or FM frequency continuously, allowing the blind to tune in with a simple Walkman and find out about cars coming before they'd hear even a conventional one. As a car approaches its signal would get stronger and as it passes away it gets weaker, inherently giving the listener the information they need to decide whether to cross the street.

To go the extra mile, a second frequency could be assigned to inter-car chat - radio that plays over the normal radio - so that you can actually ask someone to let you in, rather than yell into the silence of your car while the other person ignores someone they can't hear. Emergency vehicle sirens are a problem for the blind because they're so loud they block out all other sounds - but they're that loud so that sound-insulated cars in the coming intersection hear them. If emergency vehicle warnings (not loud sirens) played on an inter-car chat channel, they wouldn't need to be nearly as loud, reducing the harm to the blind and removing the worst urban noise problem in US cities.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Feb 13 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]389920[/snapback]</div>

This is an urban issue and the Prius is an urban car, so I think that this needs to be addressed. I had a man walk directly into my path, he wasn't blind, he was COLD. His two hoods over his head reduced his vision and his hearing. He was aghast when he had realized what he had done, he heard my mechanical brakes grab. He had NO IDEA I was coming before he stepped out into the cone of danger.

My suggestion is to use higher frequency engine sounds (1-5kHz) broadcast forward from the front of the car.
High frequency sounds are VERY directional and shouldn't intrude into the driver's experience but would alert those in the "cone of danger" ahead of the car.
The volume of the sound would be inversely proportional to the speed of the car when moving above 2 mph. So it would start out loud and slowly diminish until about 30 mph. It would be off, nearly, at a stoplight
It could be additionally modulated by throttle position so that an accelerating vehicle would create louder signals than a deaccelerating vehicle.
This car has a lot of computing power and all these inputs are available so that an output is just some code and using a horn or speaker.

 

OH! Gee Whizz Golly ! What if they are Blind andd Deaf ! Oh heavens we better watch out for everyone, How about making the cars stink !!!!

 

"A hybrid vehicle is generally quieter than a vacuum cleaner."

Every car I've ever owned is quieter than a vacuum cleaner. I've had V8 Mustangs, a string of sports cars, and two Subarus, the vacuum cleaner is louder than any and all of them. Sorry for the blind people, but quiet hybrids are not the problem. I'm a bike rider, should I yell at them whenever I see a person with a white cane? It sounds like creative Hybrid bashing to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Feb 14 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]390392[/snapback]</div>

As much as I'm one to assume something is just hybrid bashing, this does appear to be a legitimate issue that the National Foundation for the Blind is working on. A search of "Prius" or hybrid on their site gets you a few results, but a search on "quiet cars" brings up ten pages of links and shows they've been discussing this topic for years, and from their perspective it is a legitimate concern: they're worried quieter cars in general could result in new laws to limit their ability to walk unassisted in public.

from their 2006 meeting in July http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications...10/bm061014.htm
>>The Committee on Automobile and Pedestrian Safety met on Monday, July 3. Altogether between thirty and forty people attended, including several staff members and administrators from the Seeing Eye, Inc.

We spent the first hour of our two-hour session in discussion of quiet cars and their implications for the blind population. Some attendees felt strongly that we should work toward legislation requiring the auto industry to build in a device that will signal the vehicle's whereabouts to a device carried by the blind pedestrian. One man warned that a greatly increased number of quiet cars on the road could lead to the legal revocation of our right to travel independently. He said that one must be competent as a driver in order to drive, and likewise it could be argued that one must be competent as a pedestrian to walk the streets. Quiet cars can deprive us of our competence as pedestrians and thus of our right to travel.

Following the discussion we convened at the parking lot in front of the Hilton Anatole to try listening to a Toyota Prius. Jeff Witt, an NFB staff member and member of the committee, had managed to obtain the car for an hour through heroic persistence and creative problem-solving. Nearly all of us agreed that we could not hear the Prius as it drove laps around the parking lot. We then moved to an intersection and tried listening for it as it approached at a faster speed. With intent listening, most of us were able to hear its approach, but only when it was very close. We also experimented with listening for the Prius to start up at the intersection. The start-up was harder to hear than the slow-down.

As a postscript, I had discussions outside the meeting with Doug Roberts and Lucas Franck from the Seeing Eye. The dog guide schools are very aware of and concerned about the quiet-car situation. Seeing Eye has purchased a Segway, which it uses to train the dogs, and also makes sure to train them with hybrid cars. Roberts and Franck are pretty confident that dog guides can be trained to cope with an environment in which quiet cars are more prevalent but admitted that there may be a threshold above which too much responsibility is being placed on the dogs. Lucas Franck suggested that a whole new approach to training may become necessary.<<

Their post at the following link also discusses the Honda Civic Hybrid. http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=95

Their comments on the WSJ article at: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/VNB.asp

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gripper @ Feb 14 2007, 03:15 AM) [snapback]390064[/snapback]</div>

If motorists paid 100% of the costs of travelling by car, instead of being subsidised by general taxation, you might have a point.

 

I work and attend classes at UC Davis, the supposed Bike City of the country, if there ever was one.
The bike-to-population ratio here is 2:1.

But that's not the problem. The problem is that there are (too) many care-free young adults who casually use their bicycles to get around town/campus. They are careless and disregard most traffic laws (running stop signs, sudden turns without signaling, etc) while on their little bikes. Now, while I understand the bulk of the responsibility lies on the operator of the motor vehicle, their recklessness and angers me to no end.

But I digress.

The problems worsen when there aren't any motor vehicles around -- or rather, when they think there aren't any vehicles around.

Let's just say I now drive in B mode and with one hand on the horn whenever I'm on a central campus road.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Feb 13 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]389523[/snapback]</div>

I just bought stock in clothes pins and am going to lobby Toyota to include these on all models - I'll be rich.

Seriously, if a pedestrian (blind or otherwise) was in the cross walk LEGALLY when passed by a Prius, maybe someone should talk to the driver.

 

Here's what I'd like the Official Hybrid Vehicle Sound to be:

http://www.starships.com/Music/Streaming/MARTIAN1_sm.AIF

The speaker that beeps when I unlock the car will have LOTS to do after this mod...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Manksgloob @ Feb 14 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]390433[/snapback]</div>

Howdy! I'm right across the freeway, mostly riding my bike, sometimes driving my EV, and rarely driving my Prius. Wave when you see me!

The problem here, folks is NOT the quiet cars. The problem is all the other loud cars making it harder to hear the quiet ones. Fix the real problem, don't bring everything down to the lowes denominator! Grrr.

On a side note, my blind friend knows when I'm aproaching across the parking lot when I'm ON FOOT. A Prius in EV mode would be a no brainer to detect. But anyway - there are dangers everywhere and some of us have more challenges than others. Most of my time is spent on a silent bike, followed by an EV. I know what is involved in watching for others who can't hear me. It really isn't that big of a deal.

And it is a pretty good point. If we add sound makers... what do we do for the blind, deaf folks?! Do blind people worry about thousands of sighted people who are killed by the gasoline that is used in the cars that make all that safe sound? Don't mean to sound all hard-hearted here. I just get sick of all the reasons why electric drive is so darn scary.