Product is there, but no ones looking.

PFR: You make some reasonable points. Your discussion is well tempered, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. You have come to a message forum populated by and dedicated to people who own or dream of owning its namesake. I doubt you will garner any converts.

I get your point. I, and many others, realize that brand loyalty, be it toward GM or toyota, is irrational. That being said, myself and many others also have not experienced the best of luck with GM or other domestics. No matter how great any manufacturer claims they are, even when backed by consumer reporting agencies, it is often not enough to reconcile former failings. When you sell a product that costs upwards of $30k+, there is little room for error, and reputation is everything.

The bottom line is: People who frequent this forum wanted, and in most cases bought, an automobile which was not an option from domestic automakers. Hence, we were forced, though it didn't take much arm twisting for me, to purchase a hybrid car from a Japanese automaker. We can speculate and talk about all the woderful cars (read: volt) that gm has in the works, but until they are on lots, they are of little consequence.

Sin of sins, you discounted the importance of fuel economy. People (especially hybrid owners) demand high fuel economy for a number of reasons including: money, lowered emissions, lowered dependence on foreign oil, or some combination thereof. Hell, I'm a (almost, june can't come soon enough) petroleum engineer, and an ardent supporter of hybrid technology.

Best of luck to you. Continue your inquiry of any subject that interests you.

 

PFR, this is my last post in this thread as I'm getting very tired of reading your longwinded opinions. Again you are long on opinion and this time completely missign any facts. Teh ones you try to state are completely wrong.

Lets take diesels as an example. Europe has been using clean diesel (read low sulphur) for quite a while and have deployed clean diesel technology (read particle filters, etc). SO for a quick comparison you can compare the Volkswagen Jetta TDI (with the most economical 105HP diesel engine) with a DSG transmission to a Prius. This is using the German listings for fuel economy adn CO2 emissions (ignoring the other harmful emissions a diesel engine suffers from, which a gas one doesn't). For reference go to
http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/vwc...detail.1.3.html
and
http://www.toyota.de/cars/new_cars/prius/specs.asp

I chose the Jetta as it most closely falls in the same size category as the Prius.

So here are the specs
..................... Jetta listed first, ............Prius listed second
Weight in KG (2.2lbs).......1384kg.............1375kg
0-100km/h (0-62mph)......11.8s..............10.9s
CO2 emissions (g/km)......159g...............104g
Fuel consumption in liters per 100km, thus lower is better, using the EU standards (which is done at higher speed than US EPA, thus favorign a diesel vs a hybrid)
City...............................7.8....................5
Highway.........................5.1...................4.2
Combined......................6......................4.3

Thus your "clean and efficient" diesel takes 8% longer to get to 62MPH, produces 53% more CO2 (excluding other harmful emissions), and uses 40% more fuel in a controlled (apples to apples) scientific measurement.

Those are facts adn referenced. Looka t other models and they might do better here or there, but bottomline is they loose out. AND that is in the EU testing adn environment which favors diesels a lot more to the conditions in the US (speeds and quality of the diesel fuel).

So go along and learn to do your homework before standing up in a public forum and arguing. Your opinions are null and void as they are based on false assumptions, I tried to help you, but I guess it didn't work.

Your reasoning is exactly the problem with GM and FOrd, et al at the moment. Instead of acknowledging the problem and dealing with, they try to make it emosional and sweep it under the carpet. When Toyota found out about their quality problems it took them less than 2 years to acknowledge it and work on it. The big 3 only started looking at it when they lost their shirts, they didn't care about customer complaints, they didn't care about market perception, they didn't care about loosing market share, it was only when it hit the bottomline that they cared. They lost the lead over decades adn they still have not caught up. FOr them to catch up they need to produce SUPERIOR QUALITY products and not just catch up. Tehy lost it to comapnies who produce SUPERIOR QUALITY products. The US consumer didn't just wake up and say, hey lets support the Japanese brands, in fact the Japanese brands where rediculed.

Bye bye!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 11:03 PM) [snapback]389287[/snapback]</div>

You're right, it shouldn't. But hey, you should read some of the other discussions we have! Don't give up yet - lesser minds than yours would have run screaming from the room by now.

 

Porkfriedrice:

One item that you have repeated several times is simply wrong, and has been testified to by people who where there at the time. You have stated several times that the EV-1 failed because there was no demand.

In fact, GM leased every EV-1 it built. There were long waiting lists, and there were strict criteria about who could even get on the waiting list. Why?

First of all, why not sell the car? Why only lease it? Second, have you ever heard of a carmaker setting criteria (other than ability to pay) on who could buy their cars? Okay, maybe they won't sell you a car until you are old enough to drive. But GM was turning away customers, and then insisting there was no demand!!!

GM was not sincere. The fuel-efficiency standards required them to lower their overall fleet average, so they built the EV-1, not to meet those standards, but to create a false argument that efficient vehicles would not sell, and simultaneously they launched a massive lobbying effort to get the standards overturned. Thanks to weak or corrupt officials, they succeeded. Then they took back the cars as soon as the leases expired, and then they destroyed them.

Why did GM take the cars back? Why didn't they let the leasees buy them at the end of the lease period, as is done with every single other leased car on the market? The answer appears to be that GM did not want people to see electric cars on the road. They did not want people to become aware that an EV was a viable option!

I don't know why you are so devoted to GM. Malorn is understandable: He owns a GM dealership, and so has good reason to promote GM cars. But GM's history is not a very nice one. Do you know about the part they played in dismantling municipal electric mass-transit, back in the 50's?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 13 2007, 01:20 AM) [snapback]389352[/snapback]</div>

Even I'm too young to remember that one.

But I've read about it, and even seen some of the ads. 'Rails to Rubber' it was called here, and Firestone played a pretty big part, too. We were deluded into thinking getting rid of our transit was modern and progressive, yet it was really just another example of corporations doing what's best for them at the public's expense. In my city, the streetcars were gone for about 30 years before we started building a whole new system. In the same place. More expensive, less extensive, not as reliable, and slower. Yup, that's progress.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 13 2007, 12:01 AM) [snapback]389342[/snapback]</div>

I know I wouldn't - because it doesn't exist yet.

Ask me again when it's not strictly a rhetorical question.

 

What kind of parent let's their 8th grader stay up until 2:30 am on a school night?

 

Seriously you are not fooling anyone with your 8th grader nonsense anymore. Up at 2:20am your time on a school night??

You are boring dude, get over it. No facts and just meaningless drivel. Maybe just stay on the gmnews forum, they will like your nonsense over there.

Maybe I shouldn't have said my previous post was my last in this thread, but honestly I'm tired of seeing GM trolls parading here. Coming with lots of opinions, but no facts to back it up where it counts.

Bye bye!! And I mean it this time, you are boring and honestly your life must be very boring if you are so pasionate about a topic, yet do not know the facts and can't supply any facts. Go do your homework about a topic before spewing off on a internet forum, and don't try to hide behind "I'm 8th grade".

This whole thread has been one huge waste of time, as you had no value to add apart from unfounded opinions. I honestly liked a couple of GM models, but after seeing their trolling here and their latest ads I think I will definitely pass on them. I buy a product becuase it will serve my purpose, not me serve the company who build it. I will much rather look at FOrd products, as they seem to find the time to try and build new products and mroe market focussed, rather than spew nonsense all the time.

So you definitely convinced me of something, and that is that GM is of my shopping list for a very long time. The credit does not go to you alone, but many of your other GM fanboys that trolled this site.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 12 2007, 11:31 PM) [snapback]389390[/snapback]</div>

You caught it before me :lol:

Just another troll with no value to add, no facts just drivel as usual. At least I was convinced of something this time, and that is that GM is off my list for a long long time. And by their latest marketing campaigns adn judging by the way they troll other sites, I will not be alone. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 12 2007, 11:20 PM) [snapback]389352[/snapback]</div>

If you are going to hold GM's history form the 1950's against GM is it ok not to hold Toyota's history from the 1930's and 1940's against Toyota?

 

I have no doubt that porkfriedrice is a troller of the serial variety.

On top of his unconvincing impersonation of an 8th grader that is so gifted and talented, he can bait in the middle of the night in lieu of studying, he posts my IP address as if it were his. Only hacks and moderators can find other member's IP addresses. What additional proof do you need that PFK (and his aliases) has nothing but ill will? I highly suspect he can change his own IP to give him the ability to assume multiple identies. A couple of weeks ago at GreenHybrid, a "posse" of as many as two dozen joined to do a week of constant disruption. One alias was banned three times in one afternoon and rejoined minutes later each time. There were reports of someone at InsightCentral sometime ago with the same ability to cause lots of trouble.

Even if PFR is not the person I'm thinking of that has trolled virtually every EV and hybrid site in the last five years, it's obvious this is what his life is, and little more.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 13 2007, 09:24 AM) [snapback]389441[/snapback]</div>

Actually, he's just using a tool from www.danasoft.com that shows you your own IP. I see my IP & domain in the signature.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 09:47 PM) [snapback]389358[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb 13 2007, 05:56 AM) [snapback]389435[/snapback]</div>

Okay. Good point about history. Both companies have some bad history. But at the present time, Toyota is selling the cleanest, most fuel-efficient 5-passenger car you can buy today, while GM is selling gas-guzzlers and promising vaporware.

As for leasing the EV-1 to only a very select customer list, PFR says it's because GM wanted to make sure it only went to people who would take good care of the car. Then why not sell the car outright, the way they do with every other model they make??? Then if an owner wants to abuse his car he can, just like with any other car.

My gripe with GM today is the same as my gripe with all the other car makers: I want an EV and all I see is vaporware. (And the only reason I single out GM is that this thread is about GM.) And I've already said that if the Volt were on a car lot in Spokane today I'd walk in and pay cash and drive it away.

BTW, I remember the electric trolly cars in L.A., just barely. I loved them. Most of my life I blamed Mayor Yorty for taking them out. It was much later I learned the part that GM and the tire companies played, and now I blame them, too. And for this, I consider GM far more evil than Toyota. But I want an EV badly enough that I'd put the past aside if the Chevy Volt were a real car rather than an empty promise.

 

I really don't get the point of these GM trolls. Do they really think they are helping the company any at all with these efforts? It is entertaining, in a train wreck kind of way, for a very very short period, but is it likely to get any money into a GM sale? Seems like it's going to have the reverse effect, if any effect at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 13 2007, 08:42 AM) [snapback]389446[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Feb 13 2007, 08:49 AM) [snapback]389448[/snapback]</div>

I am not trying to sell any of you anything, just trying to get some of you to see the big picture. Toyota's overall effect on the US economy, the fact Toyota has done a masterful job using the Prius to shield itself form any criticism as it continues to build more and more "gas-guzzling" vehicles. I know some of you consider me a troll but I have been posting on here for over a year.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Feb 13 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]389444[/snapback]</div>

Proco,

PFK put a gif with my workplace address - not his. It's never correct someone to disclose the personal information of others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 13 2007, 07:02 AM) [snapback]389450[/snapback]</div>

It surprised me too. If you go the the danasoft site, you'll see your IP information on their home page.