Product is there, but no ones looking.

Nerfer-
I must say I am impressed and thanx for the complement. You seemed to at least read through most things I said before you responded, and thank you for putting up with me. I actually think it is impossible to be totally unbiased, for feelings is what makes humans humans. The point is to strive towardsthat goal anyways. Tell me where I show bias, and I will try to fix it.
The seeds of the domestics downfall have been strewn longer than most think. Though everyone saw the huge corperations that were sucessful and seemed like they didnt even care if you bought their stuff, inside the bad decisions and changing times have been buiried deep in side the foundation of the companies. Ford and GM arnt even as sucessful as they seemed say a decade ago. Little is seen about how much they sell to fleets just to keep the appearance of market share and sucess. Market share does not however necessarily equate to profit though, and in fact the money that actually passes through all the leagcy costs of paying for health care and the family benifits and retiree salerys, is much les than you think. They really dont have that much money to reinvest in stuff. I also think brand loyalty is very misunderstood. I wont blindly ignore facts just to blindly follow a brand.

Back to Detroit. They have had management so infamous that every GM 'fan' so to speak, knows it. Shareholders, as GM and the domestics are still publicly owned companies, (Though maybe not Ford if it goes down in smoke, Someone i think will pick it up with so much history behind it and contiue it probably privately owned for a while) Its not all GMs fault. even now the domestics dont make even close the amount of money toyota makes from a compaireable vehicle. Trucks and SUVs could handle that better thanks to their reletively big profit margins. Its simply not a level field. Keep in minds all the repective turnarounds of all these companies took forever just to get through the pipes, and the planning was already there to clear some clutter. Then the sudden jumping ship of countless shortsighted investors caused their plans to be slowed by even more. GM does care about fuel economey and gas usage, or else why even develop the EV1 in the first place. It simply wasnt wanted. Even look at Toyotas compareable Rav-4s, they used the same marketing tactics as for the prius, but did not bother wrapping it in unique package like GM, (and current Toyota) they still failed miserably. Look up Electric Car in wiki, youll find numbers that support this. Compare the sales numbers of the prius and rav4. the difference is in few to several PLACE VALUES.

Also, what is so important about MPG? I dont want to sound bad or anything, and I also realize this is a prius forum, but why? Is it the enviromental impact, feeling good about helping the planet? Or is it the financial aspect, where you believe It will cost you less money in the long run? I ask this because If you were trying so hard to help the enviroment, You would give diesels a chance. Diesels are actually quiter running, put out less gases, get better mileage, (also torque, which is overlooked a lot), and cause a lot less damage to the enviroment than their petrol counterparts. sound familiar? Its a hybrid by another name. It clearly fufills all your requirements and even more, but people refuse to use them for what reason? What is wrong with them?

Ford co-developed many things with Mazda. Mazda just happen to come out with the car first. They were made for Ford from the beginning. The explorer shares its wheel base with the Five Hundred and freestyle( both soon to be 'replaced' by the Taurus and Taurus X, repectively, whom itself repaced.) Also according to your way of analyzing information, the Fusion is sharing achitecture with the Mazda 6, so thats pretty much all of ford right there except for the hevy duty trucks. And company still matters. GM pays a thousand, (repeating myself) to the UAW for every imported car. All the profits go to a US based firm that pays US taxs, helps US charities, and touches billions of Americans, directly or indirectly, with its employment and health care it pays. It does matter. It is also important to keep in mind the specific models as you said if you really care that much. The content labels on every vehicle have the specs, thanx to the mandatory laws set by our own government. No one really asks though.

Not what I meant, Toyota does reinvest, but in general the country and people over there who have a very storng loyalty to all things Japanese, do not reinvest in the US. Trade deficit. Japanese workers have a lifetime bond with their companies, who offer employment for as long as they can, in return for hard work and diligence. Longer work days and a six day work week. Im not saying that they dont, but much much less, especially compared to our neighbors and the free trade agreement there. Canada, Us and Mexico share a very open trade and money is almost sure to come back.

The whole point of the Volt is to demonstrate new battery technology and GMs commitment in hybrids. That technology will be spead to other cars. Everything is there except for the price and efficenncy of LI-ION to drop (and increse, respectively) to make it profitable. They havnt given up, and fuel cell technology is very possible, especially evidenced by HONDAS commitment to them too. look it up. Ironically the reason we can use it now is because there is just too much evergy stored in hydrogen so it will blow up much as like if a pinto got rear ended by a HUMMER. New safer systems are being developed.

GM just offered a buyback instead of a recall on new models because the leather put in by dealers afterwards was not calibrated to the seat pressure/weight sensing system, due to the fact they tested the Cloth instead. Its a new day for GM. Also it is well documented about the apparent treatury of the domestics, but the point i was trying to make is that no one ever hears about the japanese in court because it doesnt fit the big story.

Yes The humans are responsible for a lot, but not as much as you might thnk by watching 'An Incovinient Truth.' however if this is what we have to do to get people to notice global warming, I guess Its a necessary evil.

Finally, not everyone thinks as clear as you. The domestic bad and the japanese good bias permeates evey layer of our society. That the main reason why I started this thread. I asked my friend what he wanted in a average sedan, an he responded simply, I really like the Mustang and the corvette, but domestics suck at pretty much eveything else other than styling and power.
The prius is not an average car. If you want traits based off of your prius, chances are youll get a Prius. remember as great as they might be, Hybrids is still a reletively small niche market. Finally, I do not know bout DCX, or even ford, but Look up the rather recent GM Sequel. It hosts a bunch of novel ideas and hydrogen power.
http://www.google.com/search?q=GM+sequel&a...:en-USfficial

No the point was that the Japanese govenment will do anything to support its industries. Read a thing about Japanese Tarriffs i left somewhere. Capitalism and free trade is fine , but when Japan closes its home market to invasion, that is a subversion of every think free trade means.

The Prius was never meant to make money, to put it. It is like a concept vehicle brought to life to boost Toyotas image and even the mpg average of the automakers. Kind of like hte Volt exept earlier and already in production. They never expected to make money but with such populaity comes volume, which then bring cost down, which eventually lets profit surpass it. GM, as I said before, is still chasing that 'fools dream, but also now has more pressing concerns, so im not srprised if the tech took a backseat to all this 'revitalization.' Cadillac is done, Saturn is just about, Pontiac is next, SAAB is somewhere in there, and gmc as well as buick and the rest are awaiting the new design renissance. All exect for chevy i believe, which is still ok and has a more incremental plan.

I dont regard nationality as something that matters. But if Japan can show such support for its home team and also the government sneaking around behind the sceans, then at least Americans ought to give their own cars a good look, and a chance. I actually ahve some relatives that are Japanese, and I assure you all this is not from simply revenge on the past. The past is that past, why revive old trifles? Unless Japans decides to commit any more planned atrocities in the near future, I promice to keep an open heart. I actually like Honda's ideals and out of the box thinking and design. Though for asthetics, I cant say I really like the accord and such, I like Scion's line up and right now it looks like if i was buying compact, the tc would have my vote, (also kind of enjoy the xb, not the new american one though, I like the japanese derivitive better)

I wonder where all this divided thinking will lead us. We are all in the end, one people, why must we view stuff so black and white? Maybe we need an apocalypse. Kind of like France when it was all in little tribes and England's invasion during the hundred years war forced it to put aside its differences and join or crumble. Haha im also workin on my world history homework right now if you didnt notice. I think America's ideals and even its diverse peoples from across the world deserves at least some repect. not to be bad, or anything, but for comparison 99% of Japan is purely Japanese, and they look upon the Koreans, which make up nearly the rest, with a view almost saying that they are a superior race. This and the Germans own proudness is a pices of the spark that lighted the world aflame during WW2.
There is simply nothing in the domestic lineup compareable to the Prius right now, so I cant hold anything against you. All I wanted was to end some commen misconceptions about the domestic industry.


Godiva
The car industry is very different thatn the rest of the products. Products are still voluntaraly separated by nationality, and on top of that, Things are heaped upon each, leading to sterotping evtire nationalities of cars. If the majoraity of customers are convinced of one thing, then it fuels itself, making an endless circle of ignorance. If tha majority say a certain type of car is crap, then I guess automatically It makes it true, and the next generation adopts that way of thinking as well and soon contributes as well. No one get grudges held against them like the Americans, and that extra bit of bias supported by either of the two aforementioned reasons, could mean reporting an incedent or not. Even in a Democrasy, the majority may not always be right. Ive also heard at least one Honda and toyota commercial using a JD Power quality award, what does that mean
As this does not seem to be going anywhere I guess well have to agree to disagree and wait for that true delta dude or whatever. If quality issues are that bad than I guess GM just signed its own death warrent with that HUNDRED THOUHSAND MILE WARRENTY. So i guess well see. If youre right, then thats just one more evil domestic company determined to steal your money wiped from the face of the Earth.

PS- It was a joke. I never said GM or any domestic was better than toyota, but rather closer than eveyone seemed. Even with recent chinks in the armor, Toyota continues to be the benchmark of quality nowadays. I was simply making a crack at the well known knowlege of 'bulletproof dependability' of the vaunted Toyota quality. I wasnt sure I was gunna add that but decided people can tell the difference between a joke or not. Apparently not, as you didnt even ask me if i was joking. From now on ill be sure to warn you of any attempt at humor from now on. Mmm posts, now availible in sarcasm and humor free varieties!

I also like your quote. read it a couple more times.


Addressed to Envy, Sufferin Prius,

The Volt isnt vaporware. The reason I said future tech is because that is the only reason it isnt out now. The technology has not gone a suffiecient stage where efficiency and price are both acceptable. The car is ready. The battery is the last puzzle piece..


Look above. I think I already aknolaged and answered the point. The Prius, was at the highest expectations, supposed to break even. But people seemed to like this more than a fully electric car as evidenced by the numbers, and even a hybrid that already existed, from Honda. GM is not an evil empire against change and the Champion of Big Oil everywhere. That was a byproduct of being the leader in Trucks and SUVs and depending on them for profit. (read my ENTIRE entries to find why, I believe my first post.). How much money do you think was left after that one day out of the blue, what stocks dropped to rock bottom? Short sighed investors didnt believe in the turnaround of an american company. (A quite costly turnaround I might add) After thee to reasons how much money is left. Also, GM is still developing hydrogen. If this was a Jaanese company it would be quietly ignored as eveidence of you failue of knowlegde for Honda, which is also a huge investor of hydrogen. Honda recently realesed a new hydrogen concept as well as a fueling station. Look up GM Sequel for more knowlegde too. You obviously dont know alot about hydrogen. Do you think all these multi billion companies just jumped in on the hydrogen bandwagon without any resehrch? There is great potential in hydrogen to be used as a fuel source. And as a battery. What is so different about Hydrogen from Li-ION or even the nickel batteries in your Prius? Maybe it doesnt cause damage to the enviroment with every one made? Hydrogen can also be collected and even as a byproducts of many things, even now an article in POPULAR SCIENCE shows how garbage could be developed to form hydrogen and natural gas as a byproduct.

the Volt technology is not ready yet. Not effiecent and cheap enough yet. God this is a new low in second guessing the corruption and stupidity of the Domestics. You better read the rest of this post because it has information that is already relevant. Why doesnt Toyota replace the current battery if its so objiously financially viable? These responces are getting increasingly shallow and redundant. I am disappointed. I was hoping to have an intelligent converstion, I am not accusing toyota of any unspeakble crimes, just the deck is stacked in that favor, and perception lagging on the part of the domestics. the same man perhaps, but then originnaly, GM got where it was (and passed Ford even with the Model T) based on the same traits Toyotas are synonomous with now. Certain generations lost sight of thier goals. You cant base an entrire companys future out of bad decisions of the past. That Wife beater may not change, but GM isnt made of the same people from a few decades ago. To suggest so shows incredable bias and ignorance. Im sorry this is what your post says to me. There is no american hybrid made by a company large enough to matter right now. There was a total electric however, the first of its kind, by GM. the reason it failed was it was largely ignored by the general public, not some evil oil conspiracy. That movie is a hoax. If you read all of what I said before. The only reason the dirsctor chose GM is because it was the larger target. Toyota also had a hybrid at the time. Toyota defends GM in this. Also tons of hybrids are on the market, from the Green Line Vue which has been around for a while, to even cars getting the hybrid treatment. Even counting just Honda and Toyota, (Nissan has a hybrid too now) thats 4 in itself. looks like someone doesnt know how to count. Even if the funds were availible, that is too much of a risk that GM can take right now? How much do you think the hybrid niche market can take with everyone wanting a piece of the pie now? You should do some reaserch. Start by reading all of my posts.

Thank you all for tuning in. before you ask a question, please read the entire thread to see the point has not alread been made. Thank you again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Feb 12 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]389153[/snapback]</div>

Thank you Nerfer. PorkfriedRice is indeed something my friends came up with, I can also make jokes about myself, cant I? I don't even think the Matrix quote i took can even be applied to democrats vs. republicans. I tried to see what would happen but all I got is a shallow saying that really says nothing. I think you shouldnt open your mouth unless you really have something to say, and at least have some reason behind it too. I cant go into futher detail about my identity, seeing how i am also a superhero in the night. I really am in 8th grade though, but i dont think i can show you without comprimising security. As for godiva, You think you can get me a scholorship to Harvard? Thank you for the complement, me and my dad had quite a laugh over it. Id like to know where you teach. I can also show you a couple of my essays for school. I have to admit i think i write alot more here than anything else, I guess I am a bit passionate bout this. Am I not allowed to look below th surface and seek truth?

I tried not to form any opinions in my head untill I know all the facts, as nothing is as ever as simple as what it seems. I did not come here just to causea ruckus and to stir the pot. I came to gather information so I could have a balenced view from both sides. If anyone learns anything as well from me thats a bonus too. I dont think my age really matters. What would I have to gain by lying to you? sympathy? No, im starting think having anything about my a age might have been a bad idea. Just because I am younger doesnt mean my points are any less valid, just youll have to be slightly more patient with me as I havnt experianced as much as all of you have. i came here to share ideas and garner a wider view. Im sorry if my vocabulary is too advanced for my age.

I am in no way shape or form related to Malorn. Please clarify to avoid misunderstandings.

Hahaa I dont think my typing is especially fast, but if it is, Its mainly due to the fact that I also IM a lot. I also have a Myspace. i do not know if im allowed to give it out though. I spent a couple hours on the last post, and a afternoon on the previous one. This a bit rushed.

Back to cars. Diesels have comee alongg way since back then, when they were horrible foul dirty vehicles. If someone tell me what is the percentage of Europeans that drive diesels compared to Americans, that would be appreciated. I am a beliver in global warming, but the point there was to lead into diesels. Japanese DO outperorm the domestics on average. I never said GM cars were better. In fact I am repeating myself here. The point is they are pretty damn close than anyones comfertable saying. look at those two surveys I posted, Im sorry i dont have them on hand at the moment. I really do care about fuel economy and I realize what every barrel of oil is doing. Its also hard not to notice a war over there in teh same general area. Look up diesels now. as in today. The advancements they have been astounding and here is another area where perception does not match reality. I promice also you go to most any random GM site, and they wont boot you off just for having a different opinion. Liking a domestic company does not make you stupid, a redneck, a fanatic, or give you rabies. Just because you like Toyota, possibly because you simply like the winning team or very real reasons such as quality concerns. Lemme tell you quality has stepped up but even now there are flukes. Liking a Japanese company does not make you a more rational human and definitiely not better than any other human. Unfortunatly, many people take advantage of the viel of anonymnity offered by the internet and say things they wouldnt dare in real life. I am not one of those people. A lot of you people seem to have been put off by GM some sort of way or another, especially the GMC sierra lately. I am sorry for what ever a domestic did to you but everyone deserves a second chance. You cant judge an entire company by one car you happened to get and cross them off your list forever. Did you bother to check with the dealer? maybe it was faulty. the engine in that is a Japanese developed engine with Isuzu. I want you to really ask would it make a differnece to you if it was made by a Japanese or American company and the immediete assuptions you make bout either. Corvette buyers arnt stupid. If they have a genuine problem theyll say so. I know for a fact that there are Toyota lovers on GM sites questioning their beliefs in the domestics and some are brutal about it too. That is what gets you kicked off. And I assume you think a domestic supporter is a dying breed, as any two in close proximity must be related. I get that when I walk someplaces with an asian friend of mine, and people ask if theyre my brother/sister. Having a different opinion shouldnt be a crime. Buying a pickup or SUV does not make you any manlier. That is just plain stupid, anyone will tell you. the only people that buy pickups that dont actually have a need may have a problem, but it has nothing to do with the actual car.

God, it shouldnt be this hard to have a meaningful discussion about cars without someone coming up and accusing you of something because your opinion differs from theirs.

Heres your IP, I can assure you im not anyone alse here, but myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Feb 12 2007, 10:43 PM) [snapback]389306[/snapback]</div>

What does this have to do with anything? I think the suicide might of been a little untasteful but it was a dream. People get this. No robot commercial about GM's quality dropping a screw will make anyone suicidal. Think if Toyota did it everyone would be praising them for admitting a mistake and gracefully pulling it while maintaining that nothing was wrong. God I am finding out that all fanatics are the same, weather for or anti domestic. I dont even no why im responding as Im obviously not going to get anything through to you, there is no point.

I came here expecting to find open minds. I have discovered a few but I am realizing many of you are exactly like your pro domestic counterparts that you so look down upon. I think I might be reaching to the extent of what knowlege I can share, as I find myself being increasingly put down simply because my opinion and also repeating myself. This could be my last post, unless someone makes another valid point or sincere question. I must say am disapointed in lot of you. Others have shown me that there are indeed clear thinkers on both 'sides'. Thanx gbee42, aaf709 nerfer amoung others. sorry if i didnt mention your name, for any reason.
____________________________________________________________
note, aaf709, that is what i meant, I thought i typed it but apparently not. To clarify I meant one made by a corperation already in the auto buiness with enough pull and expertise to make the attempt really matter. 2 Mercedes to a Ford? That oughta screw up some guys over doing the surveys. Haha.

Also thanx Tom it means a lot. Maybe I got across to enough people. Ill keep your tips with me.

Also, my fellow friend brother in arms Malorn
Good job coming here and though I think youre original intent was noble, you might have wandered a bit astry. Keep an open mind as well. Try not to see in black and white. Dont deny facts, like GM did make some crappy dicisions in the past. Try not to show your bias as much, thatll only discredit you to the ones who matter and will listen. I hope youre not here just to stir the pot, as I dont know how much more disapointment I can take. And remember, didnt yo mama ever tell you not to respond to those bullies? Keep up the work, though remember that Toyota isnt evil, and they can do good. Your attitude is bordering dangerously close to the ignorance we are trying to stop. Darth Vader. hehee.

Opinion needs fact or else it means nothing. You cant ever prove an opinion wrong, the most you can do is take out all the legs its standing on. If it continues to stand, Youll know that the table isnt gunna fall anyways and you should just leave it.

Though i may be leaving, feel free to PM me, I might check in once in a blue moon. Or tomorrow.