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Product is there, but no ones looking.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by porkfriedrice, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 12 2007, 02:40 PM) [snapback]389067[/snapback]</div>
    That's why it crossed my mind PFR (which could easily be a nickname given by non-Asian friends) might have gone down this path because something in the family against the Japanese. A lot of Chinese (and Koreans) do not like the Japanese because of atrocities committed during the Japanese occupation of said countries during WWII. Which may have prompted PFR to launch an investigative attack on successful Japanese industries (cars, with a minor interest in TV's, presumably VCR's, etc.) But that's jumping to a negative conclusion, and I won't do that without better evidence.
     
  2. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb 12 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]389147[/snapback]</div>
    Don't worry, my opinion about YOU and GM has not changed!
    Say hello to porkfriedrice.
     
  3. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Feb 12 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]388939[/snapback]</div>
    Definition of Capitalism according to Merriam-Webster: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

    Private is the key to capitalism. The japanese have avery closed market for most things, especially autos giving the home team a cash cow so to supplement various exporting challenges. The Japanese government is constantly manipulating the yen to give their companies an exporting advantage. How about when shipping costs are underwritten by the governments of korea, china or japan(ever wonder how a product with little or no human costs can be manufactured and shipped thousands of miles on a boat burning diesel fuel by the hundreds of gallons can be cheaper than one manufactured in the USA?). How about the Bank of Japan giving toyota a low interest or zero interest loan to finance a new factory.

    It is not true capitalism because the decks are not equally stacked. I am not for handouts for GM or Ford, just a level playing field.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maggieddd @ Feb 12 2007, 05:08 PM) [snapback]389165[/snapback]</div>
    Maggieddd I thought you had finally come around and had developed a "big ol' crush" on me! ;)
     
  4. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    Nerfer-
    I must say I am impressed and thanx for the complement. You seemed to at least read through most things I said before you responded, and thank you for putting up with me. I actually think it is impossible to be totally unbiased, for feelings is what makes humans humans. The point is to strive towardsthat goal anyways. Tell me where I show bias, and I will try to fix it.
    The seeds of the domestics downfall have been strewn longer than most think. Though everyone saw the huge corperations that were sucessful and seemed like they didnt even care if you bought their stuff, inside the bad decisions and changing times have been buiried deep in side the foundation of the companies. Ford and GM arnt even as sucessful as they seemed say a decade ago. Little is seen about how much they sell to fleets just to keep the appearance of market share and sucess. Market share does not however necessarily equate to profit though, and in fact the money that actually passes through all the leagcy costs of paying for health care and the family benifits and retiree salerys, is much les than you think. They really dont have that much money to reinvest in stuff. I also think brand loyalty is very misunderstood. I wont blindly ignore facts just to blindly follow a brand.

    Back to Detroit. They have had management so infamous that every GM 'fan' so to speak, knows it. Shareholders, as GM and the domestics are still publicly owned companies, (Though maybe not Ford if it goes down in smoke, Someone i think will pick it up with so much history behind it and contiue it probably privately owned for a while) Its not all GMs fault. even now the domestics dont make even close the amount of money toyota makes from a compaireable vehicle. Trucks and SUVs could handle that better thanks to their reletively big profit margins. Its simply not a level field. Keep in minds all the repective turnarounds of all these companies took forever just to get through the pipes, and the planning was already there to clear some clutter. Then the sudden jumping ship of countless shortsighted investors caused their plans to be slowed by even more. GM does care about fuel economey and gas usage, or else why even develop the EV1 in the first place. It simply wasnt wanted. Even look at Toyotas compareable Rav-4s, they used the same marketing tactics as for the prius, but did not bother wrapping it in unique package like GM, (and current Toyota) they still failed miserably. Look up Electric Car in wiki, youll find numbers that support this. Compare the sales numbers of the prius and rav4. the difference is in few to several PLACE VALUES.

    Also, what is so important about MPG? I dont want to sound bad or anything, and I also realize this is a prius forum, but why? Is it the enviromental impact, feeling good about helping the planet? Or is it the financial aspect, where you believe It will cost you less money in the long run? I ask this because If you were trying so hard to help the enviroment, You would give diesels a chance. Diesels are actually quiter running, put out less gases, get better mileage, (also torque, which is overlooked a lot), and cause a lot less damage to the enviroment than their petrol counterparts. sound familiar? Its a hybrid by another name. It clearly fufills all your requirements and even more, but people refuse to use them for what reason? What is wrong with them?

    Ford co-developed many things with Mazda. Mazda just happen to come out with the car first. They were made for Ford from the beginning. The explorer shares its wheel base with the Five Hundred and freestyle( both soon to be 'replaced' by the Taurus and Taurus X, repectively, whom itself repaced.) Also according to your way of analyzing information, the Fusion is sharing achitecture with the Mazda 6, so thats pretty much all of ford right there except for the hevy duty trucks. And company still matters. GM pays a thousand, (repeating myself) to the UAW for every imported car. All the profits go to a US based firm that pays US taxs, helps US charities, and touches billions of Americans, directly or indirectly, with its employment and health care it pays. It does matter. It is also important to keep in mind the specific models as you said if you really care that much. The content labels on every vehicle have the specs, thanx to the mandatory laws set by our own government. No one really asks though.

    Not what I meant, Toyota does reinvest, but in general the country and people over there who have a very storng loyalty to all things Japanese, do not reinvest in the US. Trade deficit. Japanese workers have a lifetime bond with their companies, who offer employment for as long as they can, in return for hard work and diligence. Longer work days and a six day work week. Im not saying that they dont, but much much less, especially compared to our neighbors and the free trade agreement there. Canada, Us and Mexico share a very open trade and money is almost sure to come back.

    The whole point of the Volt is to demonstrate new battery technology and GMs commitment in hybrids. That technology will be spead to other cars. Everything is there except for the price and efficenncy of LI-ION to drop (and increse, respectively) to make it profitable. They havnt given up, and fuel cell technology is very possible, especially evidenced by HONDAS commitment to them too. look it up. Ironically the reason we can use it now is because there is just too much evergy stored in hydrogen so it will blow up much as like if a pinto got rear ended by a HUMMER. New safer systems are being developed.

    GM just offered a buyback instead of a recall on new models because the leather put in by dealers afterwards was not calibrated to the seat pressure/weight sensing system, due to the fact they tested the Cloth instead. Its a new day for GM. Also it is well documented about the apparent treatury of the domestics, but the point i was trying to make is that no one ever hears about the japanese in court because it doesnt fit the big story.

    Yes The humans are responsible for a lot, but not as much as you might thnk by watching 'An Incovinient Truth.' however if this is what we have to do to get people to notice global warming, I guess Its a necessary evil.

    Finally, not everyone thinks as clear as you. The domestic bad and the japanese good bias permeates evey layer of our society. That the main reason why I started this thread. I asked my friend what he wanted in a average sedan, an he responded simply, I really like the Mustang and the corvette, but domestics suck at pretty much eveything else other than styling and power.
    The prius is not an average car. If you want traits based off of your prius, chances are youll get a Prius. remember as great as they might be, Hybrids is still a reletively small niche market. Finally, I do not know bout DCX, or even ford, but Look up the rather recent GM Sequel. It hosts a bunch of novel ideas and hydrogen power.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=GM+sequel&a...:en-US:eek:fficial

    No the point was that the Japanese govenment will do anything to support its industries. Read a thing about Japanese Tarriffs i left somewhere. Capitalism and free trade is fine , but when Japan closes its home market to invasion, that is a subversion of every think free trade means.

    The Prius was never meant to make money, to put it. It is like a concept vehicle brought to life to boost Toyotas image and even the mpg average of the automakers. Kind of like hte Volt exept earlier and already in production. They never expected to make money but with such populaity comes volume, which then bring cost down, which eventually lets profit surpass it. GM, as I said before, is still chasing that 'fools dream, but also now has more pressing concerns, so im not srprised if the tech took a backseat to all this 'revitalization.' Cadillac is done, Saturn is just about, Pontiac is next, SAAB is somewhere in there, and gmc as well as buick and the rest are awaiting the new design renissance. All exect for chevy i believe, which is still ok and has a more incremental plan.

    I dont regard nationality as something that matters. But if Japan can show such support for its home team and also the government sneaking around behind the sceans, then at least Americans ought to give their own cars a good look, and a chance. I actually ahve some relatives that are Japanese, and I assure you all this is not from simply revenge on the past. The past is that past, why revive old trifles? Unless Japans decides to commit any more planned atrocities in the near future, I promice to keep an open heart. I actually like Honda's ideals and out of the box thinking and design. Though for asthetics, I cant say I really like the accord and such, I like Scion's line up and right now it looks like if i was buying compact, the tc would have my vote, (also kind of enjoy the xb, not the new american one though, I like the japanese derivitive better)

    I wonder where all this divided thinking will lead us. We are all in the end, one people, why must we view stuff so black and white? Maybe we need an apocalypse. Kind of like France when it was all in little tribes and England's invasion during the hundred years war forced it to put aside its differences and join or crumble. Haha im also workin on my world history homework right now if you didnt notice. I think America's ideals and even its diverse peoples from across the world deserves at least some repect. not to be bad, or anything, but for comparison 99% of Japan is purely Japanese, and they look upon the Koreans, which make up nearly the rest, with a view almost saying that they are a superior race. This and the Germans own proudness is a pices of the spark that lighted the world aflame during WW2.
    There is simply nothing in the domestic lineup compareable to the Prius right now, so I cant hold anything against you. All I wanted was to end some commen misconceptions about the domestic industry.


    Godiva
    The car industry is very different thatn the rest of the products. Products are still voluntaraly separated by nationality, and on top of that, Things are heaped upon each, leading to sterotping evtire nationalities of cars. If the majoraity of customers are convinced of one thing, then it fuels itself, making an endless circle of ignorance. If tha majority say a certain type of car is crap, then I guess automatically It makes it true, and the next generation adopts that way of thinking as well and soon contributes as well. No one get grudges held against them like the Americans, and that extra bit of bias supported by either of the two aforementioned reasons, could mean reporting an incedent or not. Even in a Democrasy, the majority may not always be right. Ive also heard at least one Honda and toyota commercial using a JD Power quality award, what does that mean
    As this does not seem to be going anywhere I guess well have to agree to disagree and wait for that true delta dude or whatever. If quality issues are that bad than I guess GM just signed its own death warrent with that HUNDRED THOUHSAND MILE WARRENTY. So i guess well see. If youre right, then thats just one more evil domestic company determined to steal your money wiped from the face of the Earth.

    PS- It was a joke. I never said GM or any domestic was better than toyota, but rather closer than eveyone seemed. Even with recent chinks in the armor, Toyota continues to be the benchmark of quality nowadays. I was simply making a crack at the well known knowlege of 'bulletproof dependability' of the vaunted Toyota quality. I wasnt sure I was gunna add that but decided people can tell the difference between a joke or not. Apparently not, as you didnt even ask me if i was joking. From now on ill be sure to warn you of any attempt at humor from now on. Mmm posts, now availible in sarcasm and humor free varieties!

    I also like your quote. read it a couple more times.


    Addressed to Envy, Sufferin Prius,

    The Volt isnt vaporware. The reason I said future tech is because that is the only reason it isnt out now. The technology has not gone a suffiecient stage where efficiency and price are both acceptable. The car is ready. The battery is the last puzzle piece..


    Look above. I think I already aknolaged and answered the point. The Prius, was at the highest expectations, supposed to break even. But people seemed to like this more than a fully electric car as evidenced by the numbers, and even a hybrid that already existed, from Honda. GM is not an evil empire against change and the Champion of Big Oil everywhere. That was a byproduct of being the leader in Trucks and SUVs and depending on them for profit. (read my ENTIRE entries to find why, I believe my first post.). How much money do you think was left after that one day out of the blue, what stocks dropped to rock bottom? Short sighed investors didnt believe in the turnaround of an american company. (A quite costly turnaround I might add) After thee to reasons how much money is left. Also, GM is still developing hydrogen. If this was a Jaanese company it would be quietly ignored as eveidence of you failue of knowlegde for Honda, which is also a huge investor of hydrogen. Honda recently realesed a new hydrogen concept as well as a fueling station. Look up GM Sequel for more knowlegde too. You obviously dont know alot about hydrogen. Do you think all these multi billion companies just jumped in on the hydrogen bandwagon without any resehrch? There is great potential in hydrogen to be used as a fuel source. And as a battery. What is so different about Hydrogen from Li-ION or even the nickel batteries in your Prius? Maybe it doesnt cause damage to the enviroment with every one made? Hydrogen can also be collected and even as a byproducts of many things, even now an article in POPULAR SCIENCE shows how garbage could be developed to form hydrogen and natural gas as a byproduct.

    the Volt technology is not ready yet. Not effiecent and cheap enough yet. God this is a new low in second guessing the corruption and stupidity of the Domestics. You better read the rest of this post because it has information that is already relevant. Why doesnt Toyota replace the current battery if its so objiously financially viable? These responces are getting increasingly shallow and redundant. I am disappointed. I was hoping to have an intelligent converstion, I am not accusing toyota of any unspeakble crimes, just the deck is stacked in that favor, and perception lagging on the part of the domestics. the same man perhaps, but then originnaly, GM got where it was (and passed Ford even with the Model T) based on the same traits Toyotas are synonomous with now. Certain generations lost sight of thier goals. You cant base an entrire companys future out of bad decisions of the past. That Wife beater may not change, but GM isnt made of the same people from a few decades ago. To suggest so shows incredable bias and ignorance. Im sorry this is what your post says to me. There is no american hybrid made by a company large enough to matter right now. There was a total electric however, the first of its kind, by GM. the reason it failed was it was largely ignored by the general public, not some evil oil conspiracy. That movie is a hoax. If you read all of what I said before. The only reason the dirsctor chose GM is because it was the larger target. Toyota also had a hybrid at the time. Toyota defends GM in this. Also tons of hybrids are on the market, from the Green Line Vue which has been around for a while, to even cars getting the hybrid treatment. Even counting just Honda and Toyota, (Nissan has a hybrid too now) thats 4 in itself. looks like someone doesnt know how to count. Even if the funds were availible, that is too much of a risk that GM can take right now? How much do you think the hybrid niche market can take with everyone wanting a piece of the pie now? You should do some reaserch. Start by reading all of my posts.

    Thank you all for tuning in. before you ask a question, please read the entire thread to see the point has not alread been made. Thank you again.
     
  5. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]389173[/snapback]</div>

    I have felt like the Lone Ranger for so long! thank you PFR!
     
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb 12 2007, 07:19 PM) [snapback]389174[/snapback]</div>
    Wait. A voice in the wilderness, maybe, crying out in the night, but the Lone Ranger? I don't think so! :D

    And before you get any more ideas of identity theft, the position of Tonto is taken. :)
     
  7. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb 12 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]389174[/snapback]</div>
    did you know it makes you even more looney when you are responding to yourself?
     
  8. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I really cannot believe this has gone on for so many pages. Speaking as a former GMC truck owner (2000 GMC Sierra SLT 4x4 with: knocking, oil burning Vortec; leaky rear axle; worthless "drum in hat" parking brakes; AutoTrac mode select defective modules, etc etc etc) it's almost as if GM and especially the dealer that sold me the truck, went out of their way to really piss me off.

    Buy another GM product? Feh, I’d sooner perform Do It Yourself Circumcision with a dull rusty knife.

    What really surprises me is that obvious trolls can join and constantly knock us down, even hinting at our questionable Patriotism, maybe even - and I chuckle thinking about this one - our sexual orientation, due to the fact we happen to drive a Prius instead of some fire breathing 'murican bad nice person pickup.

    Try to join gm hyphen trucks dot com, and post something negative about The General. They'll boot you in a second. Or even worse, join and post about what a piece of stinky diarrhea your pricey 2000 GMC Sierra SLT was. Couldn’t possibly be the fault of The General, has to be your fault somehow.

    I really don’t get why trolls and obvious troublemakers and instigators aren’t permanently banned from this forum.

    Oh, and guess what? I really, really do NOT like children. They should be out of sight and out of mind. Sure am glad I never had any, even had a vasectomy many years ago to make sure of it.

    Tell you what little kid, get a frigging job and quit whining about s*** you know nothing about. Us working folks have had to deal with backstabbing companies in our careers long enough to realize there is no such thing as "job security." So deal with it.
     
  9. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 12 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]389067[/snapback]</div>
    I disagree. If Porkfriedrice turned out to be a pseudonym for another poster, simply publishing that fact would be sufficient. And while it is not acceptable to try to locate an 8th grader, it would be acceptable for the mods to compare his IP to that of any other poster suspected of creating multiple personalities. (Though I suppose all the "real" person would have to do is post from another computer, to conceal the identity of the clone.)

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb 12 2007, 02:41 PM) [snapback]389147[/snapback]</div>
    Like I said, first to the gate with a freeway capable EV gets my business. Though I'd probably buy from a local dealership. But if the Chevy volt is the first, you'd be welcome to come out and photograph me with it.

    Meanwhile I'm still going to check out the Tesla, which is not yet in mass production, but is giving an estimated waiting time after placing an order with a refundable deposit of a little over a year.

    But I am seriously interested to know whether your statement "I will be able to sell you one before 2010," [emphasis mine] is based on a hard commitment from Chevy, or whether this is your own estimate based on reliable information, or merely a guess?
     
  10. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    PFR,

    I believe you need to do some research in the real world. Do you know how to paint a car? Bare metal is sprayed with primer then painted. Have you seen an "old" Buick with peeling paint because it's sprayed on bare metal? That is NOT quality. (Can you tell me the year Buick started using primer?)

    A gasoline engine shouldn't burn oil. Mr. Goodwrench (more than 1) tells a customer that he is lucky that his 3.5L engine only burns a quart of oil every 3000 miles. That is NOT quality. If I wanted to burn oil I'd buy a diesel.

    Using a coolant that turns to goo in the radiator is NOT quality.

    2000 is NOT ancient history. I expect to keep a car over 200,000 miles. My 2006 Prius replaced a 1989 Delta 88. In 2017 if GM has a history of building more reliable cars than Toyota then I'll consider one again.

    GM's problem is that they don't have fanatical customer loyalty except for the Corvette. A Corvette owner doesn't complain that water leaks into it. That Corvette owner will just buy another. (I know the newer Corvettes don't leak--they whistle.)

    Diesel cars may get the same fuel economy as my hybrid but not at the same cost per mile or emissions. Diesels are louder, dirtier, and stink more than gasoline engines. I know. My neighbor has a diesel and he has problems with the diesel odor in the cabin. My friend's VW Jetta diesel gets about the same mpg (maybe better) but he's got much less car.

    PFR, during your lifetime, you will find that you are living in a country that can not feed itself, clothe itself, or power itself. I give this country another 50 years unless a natural disaster of Biblical proportions hits. The barbarians are already at the gates.
     
  11. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]389173[/snapback]</div>
    I couldn't resist ... yes, this does sound familiar and that is because it's BS.

    I guess you've never heard a diesel motor in operation? CLATTER CLATTER CLATTER KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK well, that was also the noise my 2000 GMC Sierra Vortec motor made too, but I digress

    They "put out less gasses?" How about PM's? How about NOx? If they're so clean, why can't you buy a VW Jetta TDI in California or any state that has adopted CA emissions? Simple: they don't have a hope of meeting CA emissions, since at least for cars, there are no different EPA Bin tier's for LD diesels.

    I also love being stuck in traffic behind a VW diesel, or a diesel pickup, on our -35 C days. Those diesels stink so badly in the cold weather I feel like driving off a bridge.

    Try looking at these sites

    http://www.mde.state.md.us/Programs/AirPro...ydecp/index.asp

    http://www.cleanair.com/Services/EngineSer...DieselMain.html

    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/research.../diesel_pm.html

    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/EE/282.pdf

    Contrast the EPA diesel emission regulations to the EU ones:

    http://www.epa.gov/tier2/amendments/420f06027.htm

    http://english.people.com.cn/200612/14/eng...214_332221.html

    Under the current standard, NOx for EU diesel cars is 0.25 g/km. Depending on sales weighted average "Bin," vs 0.07 g/MILE with the US EPA. CARB is even stricter, which is why you won't find a VW TDI for sale there.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Feb 12 2007, 09:40 PM) [snapback]389242[/snapback]</div>
    Why you lucky fellow! I was told it was "normal" for the Vortec 5.3 in my 2000 GMC Sierra to burn 1 litre every 1,000 km. Or about a quart every 600 miles.
     
  12. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 12 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]389201[/snapback]</div>
    Dude, you really need to relax. I'm not sure what happened in your job or life recently, but attacking PFR is not solving it. Part of being a good community and able to discuss issues is tolerance for other viewpoints. If PriusChat degenerates into a forum that doesn't tolerate anything that knocks the Prius, then it's time for me to find a new forum. But until then, this is a great place to learn things.

    Besides, not every GM vehicle is a lemon, despite your particular experience (and you are experienced when it comes to vehicles, that is apparent). They have the capability of making a good vehicle, and they are improving. But so is everybody else.
     
  13. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 12 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]389201[/snapback]</div>
    My basic philosophy is you should allow in a forum what is allowed in real life - but no more.

    - Do white supreamists attend NAACP meetings with their Confederate flags and swatikas?
    - Are worship services allow some to stand up and say they are full of crap?
    - Would a Toyota dealership allow a rival to enter the premises to prevent sales?

    The answer is obviously not - in real life....but {magical choral voices in the background} people on the internet have free speech beyond any liberal democracy you care to name...and it's an unalienable right claimed by trollers. Strange they talk about free speech when they try so hard to deny groups like PC to exist peacefully, coming in as "innocent" teens, people from exotic lands, little Shirley Templesque girls that have this knack to bait the Hell out of a forum.

    For what my two cents are worth - if a check of the IP address indeed proves porkfriedrice is the sock of an existing member here, I'd announce it. They might as well be banned as their reputation would decend to a spammers - everyone would instantly disbelieve them. Banning them would not be a bad idea, though.

    IMHO, anyone that posts solely to agitate is asking to get the boot - it's not protected free speech as I understand it.
     
  14. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]389173[/snapback]</div>
    Thanks. Reading it was a bit lengthy, but you deserved that much.
    Well, there you go confusing me again. Why tout GM so much, if not blindly following a brand?
    I come from a Ford family, and would own a Ford myself if they made a car I wanted. In the meantime, I've owned an air-cooled VW bug, two Nissan Sentras (worked great, bought used, owned for >50K miles each and never burned a drop of oil), Subaru Outback, and my wife has a Honda Accord. So I have little brand loyalty. I check Consumer Reports for the reliability of a particular car, and choose what's best for me at that time. In general Japanese cars outperform domestics on reliability and fit & finish, but it depends on the model.
    There's more debate on this - there were waiting lists for the electric vehicles that the companies don't like to publish, and they put strict limitations on who could lease (or in Toyota's case, buy) an EV. They didn't want to go that path for some reason, but history will show that EVs are a viable option and should have been done much sooner.
    Well, if global warming doesn't get us, peak oil will. Beyond that, why send money to terrorist-friendly countries that dread the idea of us being energy-sufficient? To me, it's unpatriotic to waste oil, and that is more important than where your car is made. Oil is precious, and we need to use it wisely. Innovation is what made this country great, but we want to rest on our laurels and ignore the future possibilities of PHEV, alternate-energy like cellulosic ethanol, solar and wind, meanwhile Germany and Japan are giving heavy subsidies to installing solar panels and wind mills. If we just sit around and praise the SUV, we'll get left out of the future.

    But really, it's the global warming that scares me. I'm doing this for the next generation. And I'll be lucky enough that my job is moving closer to home, so starting this spring I'll be biking to work every day. For my health and your future. I know you're not a believer in global warming or peak oil now, but you will be. Maybe not even by the time you graduate, but you will be. I know it.
    Ha! Yes, some others answered this already. Diesel is on the verge of getting much cleaner, with clean catalytic-converter-friendly fuel now available, but currently they are very dirty vehicles, as far as air pollution goes. My parents had a diesel Ford Escort when I was growing up (in N. MN no less! That was very difficult to keep it able to start at -40'). It was a good car, and I liked it, but I now know how polluting it was. And when you figure diesel fuel has more energy (and carbon) per gallon than gasoline, the big improvements in mileage aren't so impressive. But probably the biggest reason I didn't buy a diesel vehicle 10 or 15 years ago was that there just weren't many available. They were hard to find. A clean diesel might be in my future.
    That is common attitude in some areas, but not all. In rural areas in particular they have a large market share. When they make a car that resonates with the public (and is reliable), it will be widely accepted.

    If you want me to admit GM can make a good car, I'll admit it. But if you want me to say that GM is overall a better company than Toyota or Honda, I still won't agree. Maybe Toyota and Honda got a helping hand from the government, but they also work very hard at quality and engineering. Rightly or wrongly, the average Toyota will have fewer problems than the average GM car.
    Okay, that makes me feel better. I wasn't sure if you were so pro-GM or anti-Japan.
    Alright, point taken. I'll admit there are some real GM-haters here (probably more because of EV-1 and other policy issues) and they are probably your real target. Toyota makes the Tundra and other large gas hogs, so they aren't blameless either. They joined the lawsuit against California to drop the EV program. So I have a hard time saying GM is evil and Toyota is the savior, altho I like Toyota's recent moves better than GM's. Even Exxon has turned around to a slight degree and they really were the devil, IMO, so anybody can see the light.
     
  15. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Feb 12 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]389153[/snapback]</div>
    Thank you Nerfer. PorkfriedRice is indeed something my friends came up with, I can also make jokes about myself, cant I? I don't even think the Matrix quote i took can even be applied to democrats vs. republicans. I tried to see what would happen but all I got is a shallow saying that really says nothing. I think you shouldnt open your mouth unless you really have something to say, and at least have some reason behind it too. I cant go into futher detail about my identity, seeing how i am also a superhero in the night. I really am in 8th grade though, but i dont think i can show you without comprimising security. As for godiva, You think you can get me a scholorship to Harvard? Thank you for the complement, me and my dad had quite a laugh over it. Id like to know where you teach. I can also show you a couple of my essays for school. I have to admit i think i write alot more here than anything else, I guess I am a bit passionate bout this. Am I not allowed to look below th surface and seek truth?

    I tried not to form any opinions in my head untill I know all the facts, as nothing is as ever as simple as what it seems. I did not come here just to causea ruckus and to stir the pot. I came to gather information so I could have a balenced view from both sides. If anyone learns anything as well from me thats a bonus too. I dont think my age really matters. What would I have to gain by lying to you? sympathy? No, im starting think having anything about my a age might have been a bad idea. Just because I am younger doesnt mean my points are any less valid, just youll have to be slightly more patient with me as I havnt experianced as much as all of you have. i came here to share ideas and garner a wider view. Im sorry if my vocabulary is too advanced for my age.

    I am in no way shape or form related to Malorn. Please clarify to avoid misunderstandings.

    Hahaa I dont think my typing is especially fast, but if it is, Its mainly due to the fact that I also IM a lot. I also have a Myspace. i do not know if im allowed to give it out though. I spent a couple hours on the last post, and a afternoon on the previous one. This a bit rushed.

    Back to cars. Diesels have comee alongg way since back then, when they were horrible foul dirty vehicles. If someone tell me what is the percentage of Europeans that drive diesels compared to Americans, that would be appreciated. I am a beliver in global warming, but the point there was to lead into diesels. Japanese DO outperorm the domestics on average. I never said GM cars were better. In fact I am repeating myself here. The point is they are pretty damn close than anyones comfertable saying. look at those two surveys I posted, Im sorry i dont have them on hand at the moment. I really do care about fuel economy and I realize what every barrel of oil is doing. Its also hard not to notice a war over there in teh same general area. Look up diesels now. as in today. The advancements they have been astounding and here is another area where perception does not match reality. I promice also you go to most any random GM site, and they wont boot you off just for having a different opinion. Liking a domestic company does not make you stupid, a redneck, a fanatic, or give you rabies. Just because you like Toyota, possibly because you simply like the winning team or very real reasons such as quality concerns. Lemme tell you quality has stepped up but even now there are flukes. Liking a Japanese company does not make you a more rational human and definitiely not better than any other human. Unfortunatly, many people take advantage of the viel of anonymnity offered by the internet and say things they wouldnt dare in real life. I am not one of those people. A lot of you people seem to have been put off by GM some sort of way or another, especially the GMC sierra lately. I am sorry for what ever a domestic did to you but everyone deserves a second chance. You cant judge an entire company by one car you happened to get and cross them off your list forever. Did you bother to check with the dealer? maybe it was faulty. the engine in that is a Japanese developed engine with Isuzu. I want you to really ask would it make a differnece to you if it was made by a Japanese or American company and the immediete assuptions you make bout either. Corvette buyers arnt stupid. If they have a genuine problem theyll say so. I know for a fact that there are Toyota lovers on GM sites questioning their beliefs in the domestics and some are brutal about it too. That is what gets you kicked off. And I assume you think a domestic supporter is a dying breed, as any two in close proximity must be related. I get that when I walk someplaces with an asian friend of mine, and people ask if theyre my brother/sister. Having a different opinion shouldnt be a crime. Buying a pickup or SUV does not make you any manlier. That is just plain stupid, anyone will tell you. the only people that buy pickups that dont actually have a need may have a problem, but it has nothing to do with the actual car.

    God, it shouldnt be this hard to have a meaningful discussion about cars without someone coming up and accusing you of something because your opinion differs from theirs.

    Heres your IP, I can assure you im not anyone alse here, but myself.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Beryl Octet

    Beryl Octet New Member

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    GM's even recalling their advertising now. No ETA on repairs.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.brandweek.com/bw/news/recent_di...t_id=1003544496

    DETROIT -- Caving in to pressure, General Motors will amend its broadcast ad in which a despondent robot commits suicide after losing his assembly line job, abruptly reversing a decision it had made last week to defy criticism from a suicide prevention group.

    “We’ve had some constructive dialogue with the foundation and we felt we needed to address their concerns,†said GM rep John McDonald. “I think we’ve done the right thing, and we are in the process of pulling the ad off of YouTube and our Web site. And the ad will be changed as well.â€

    McDonald did not give a time frame for the newly edited spot to come back and also declined to say if the foundation would have a final sign-off on the revised spot.
     
  17. aaf709

    aaf709 Ravenpaw of ThunderClan

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    Well, that's not entirely true (I expected Darell to comment). Electric cars have been around for decades. I've seen an 1897 as well as a 1917 hybrid. An electric car from a major automotive company still around would be more accurate (ignoring Honda's EV Plus, which went the way of GMs EV1).

    I'm not much for brand loyalty. My first two cars were Mercedes (first one was a diesel), followed by a Ford. I got a Toyota because it sold the Prius, not a Prius because it was sold by Toyota. My father owned a Plymouth for years, now he has a Toyota Camry and a Studebaker GT Hawk.
     
  18. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Porkfriedrice, without getting into a point by point discussion, I just want to congratulate you for having a rational discussion about your ideas and beliefs. Not many adults are able to do that anymore, let alone eighth graders. It's great to see you in here pitching your ideas and listening to the ideas of others. Keep it up and you will do well in life. Cheers. :)

    Tom
     
  19. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Feb 12 2007, 10:43 PM) [snapback]389306[/snapback]</div>

    What does this have to do with anything? I think the suicide might of been a little untasteful but it was a dream. People get this. No robot commercial about GM's quality dropping a screw will make anyone suicidal. Think if Toyota did it everyone would be praising them for admitting a mistake and gracefully pulling it while maintaining that nothing was wrong. God I am finding out that all fanatics are the same, weather for or anti domestic. I dont even no why im responding as Im obviously not going to get anything through to you, there is no point.

    I came here expecting to find open minds. I have discovered a few but I am realizing many of you are exactly like your pro domestic counterparts that you so look down upon. I think I might be reaching to the extent of what knowlege I can share, as I find myself being increasingly put down simply because my opinion and also repeating myself. This could be my last post, unless someone makes another valid point or sincere question. I must say am disapointed in lot of you. Others have shown me that there are indeed clear thinkers on both 'sides'. Thanx gbee42, aaf709 nerfer amoung others. sorry if i didnt mention your name, for any reason.
    ____________________________________________________________
    note, aaf709, that is what i meant, I thought i typed it but apparently not. To clarify I meant one made by a corperation already in the auto buiness with enough pull and expertise to make the attempt really matter. 2 Mercedes to a Ford? That oughta screw up some guys over doing the surveys. Haha.

    Also thanx Tom it means a lot. Maybe I got across to enough people. Ill keep your tips with me.

    Also, my fellow friend brother in arms Malorn
    Good job coming here and though I think youre original intent was noble, you might have wandered a bit astry. Keep an open mind as well. Try not to see in black and white. Dont deny facts, like GM did make some crappy dicisions in the past. Try not to show your bias as much, thatll only discredit you to the ones who matter and will listen. I hope youre not here just to stir the pot, as I dont know how much more disapointment I can take. And remember, didnt yo mama ever tell you not to respond to those bullies? Keep up the work, though remember that Toyota isnt evil, and they can do good. Your attitude is bordering dangerously close to the ignorance we are trying to stop. Darth Vader. hehee.

    Opinion needs fact or else it means nothing. You cant ever prove an opinion wrong, the most you can do is take out all the legs its standing on. If it continues to stand, Youll know that the table isnt gunna fall anyways and you should just leave it.

    Though i may be leaving, feel free to PM me, I might check in once in a blue moon. Or tomorrow.
     
  20. Beryl Octet

    Beryl Octet New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 11:01 PM) [snapback]389321[/snapback]</div>
    Please keep an open mind yourself. My first ever car was a Chevy. My first new car was also a GM product. My first new truck was also a Chevy. I was probably on my fifth Chevy before you were out of diapers. They apparently felt like they no longer valued my business a few years ago, and we had a parting of the ways. I'd be back to take a look if they get a PHEV out there before the competition, but I lost way too much time and money on the last two GM products I owned to consider anything else in their line up. You pays your money and you takes your chances. With GM, I was disappointed. Sorry you are disappointed, but on the bright side, you don't have $22,000 bucks in 1993 dollars invested, either. Good luck with your future car buying experiences. Sincere enough for you?