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Product is there, but no ones looking.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by porkfriedrice, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    "Don't worry SPE, it's just a figure of speech, due to a well known corporation's identity. We wouldn't use Aunt Jemima's just like we wouldn't drive a GM vehicle."
    Its a quote from Fred's House of Pancakes Main Forum.


    Why do you hate GM so much? I understand its a joke but I find it kind of sad that people are making jokes about their own domestic company. (assuming we are all american) I'm actually of chinese decent but thats beside the point. Dont you in the beginning, of this thread, encourage accptance and understanding? Yet so hypocritically you are so clearly biased against GM, and i assume the rest of the domestics. I dont find it that funny that a citizen would laugh so much at products made by fellow countrymen for you. I understand GM as well as the other Domestic car companies (counting DaimlerCrysler as if i didntn it would be much of an 'others' would it be?) has had had quality issues in the past, but dont you think it warrents another look by now. If people always blindly followed (or neglected) a brand like this, thenthe japanese would never have gotten where they are now in the automotive industry. I guess acceptance is a one way street eh?

    look at this article, its also in my sig now. this data was contributed by JD Power and associates.
    http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/amer..._cars/index.htm
    Keep in mind though it is a bit dated and only shows american and japanese. (Oldsmobile is there, but DaimlerCrysler i guess isnt counted as american anymore.) It shows that out of the top ten above average in quality 6 are american and 5 are japanese. looks pretty balanced to me. All of Ford was in there with Lincoln, Murcury, and Ford, and GM had Buick, Cadillac, and Chevy. The rest of GM follwed beneath the industry average with Saturn, Oldsmobile, GMC and Pontiac. The bottom six are Japanese. (depending on what you count Mazda, which Ford own i think a 15 percent share of.) Again, this is a bit dated, but the Americans are getting better all the time and Toyota might even be slipping from its vaunted quality standpoint. (how many Toyota recalls this year compared to Ford or GM?) Also Oldsmobile and Isuzu are gone now i believe so that would bring more domestics above the industry average, especially factoring in that Saturn almost has an entirely new product line, (and it will soon, if you care to know.) I am constantly amazed by the sheer ignorance surrounding the domestic auto industry. Thought like this are commonly demonstrated everywhere I look. Its your own country! At least bother to look below the surface before you immedietly bash damestic cars like it had the plague. Actually, I think the amercan people would actually be more sympathetic to the plague than its own auto industry. its a sad day for the american race to see such rampant anti-american orientation. Its amazing what a change of mind set can do.
     
  2. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    I see, PFR.
    It wasn't until I read your entire signature that I understood. You are in 8th grade and that makes a difference.

    Socrates is quoted as having said, "Children know nothing of adulthood while adults know everything of childhood."

    This is not a slam against you. I quote this only to frame the discussions you are having with people who are twice and thrice your experience. I didn't say 'age', I said 'experience.'

    You see, there was a time when people were thoroughly brand loyal. There was a time when a company took care of their employees. There was a time when an employee could spend 40 years with a company, move up the corporate ladder and retire with a pension plan and a gold watch.

    Those days are over and many members of this board have lived through that transition. It was not a "golden era" by any means.

    You speak of the brand loyalty of Americans; I speak of the loyalty shown to employees by American companies. You speak of "buying American"; I speak of outsourcing and off-shoring jobs. You argue that we are opposed to GM; I offer that we are opposed to "American" companies who smelt their parts and assemble their products overseas while laying off tens of thousands of hard-working Americans.

    There is also the "perception" of quality. American vehicle manufacturers will admit that there were quality issues a while back. Shoot, even while Ford proclaimed "Quality is Job One" (you might not remember these commercials) they were fraught with quality issues. And now they are saying, "we have high quality and reliability." Let me explain to you that this is not something earned overnight. Reliability is not determined on the way home from the dealer; reliability is earned over 150,000 miles, thousands of daily commutes, a few trips across the country, and a couple new homes.

    When I was shopping for a new car, I performed one very simple experiment: I counted the brands of old cars on the road. You know, the cars that people either can't or don't want to get rid of. The cars that line the used-car lots, the cars that people who can't afford a lot of repairs buy. It was basically a tie between Toyota and Honda.

    Now, I haven't even gotten into some of the intentional and really bad decisions made by GM. You claim that you have watched, "Who Killed the Electric Car." There are a few things you need to pay really close attention to. For example, when Bill Clinton is joking about the 5 year-old boy who is going to dedicate his life to inventing a high-mileage vehicle, everyone laughed at least a little. I mean everyone. Except the American car manufacturers. Now you haven't been in any Executive Board Meetings or any business meetings for that matter but I'm sure that by now you understand the importance of non-verbal communication.

    I'm sure you are thinking that I didn't answer your question. In several years, you'll understand.
     
  3. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    Al Gore does a graphic comparison in the Extra Features section of An Inconvenient Truth. The US (GM, Ford) lag w-a-y behind other manufacturers for efficiency (mpg). According to Gore, the US cannot sell US vehicles in the growing China market because US vehicles do not meet efficiency standards.

    Detroit claims it cannot meet California and Chinese standards for fuel efficiency, while Japan and Germany are already there. This makes Ford-GM claims hollow and people are seeing through the marketing. The Northeast States with California and Oregon have a current case before the US Supreme Court. The combination of air quality and fuel efficiency concerns should make this obvious to Detroit, but Detroit has been at the easy feed trough for too long and does not care to look up.

    The Saturn Vue and coming PHEVs will help to drive emissions down and fuel economy up. PZEV product is there and sales are strong. Ford-GM need to stop the marketing hyperbole (the current phase is come in to have your tires checked) and get firmly on the air quality - fuel efficiency effort.

    Just as many realtors have told me that "no one cares about energy efficiency", it is the same with vehicles. People are making good personal long-term choices - to European and Japanese vehicles.
     
  4. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    You should reread the chart on the article you posted.

    Nobody here likes Toyota just because they are Japanese. Nobody here dislikes Ford or GM just because they're American.

    I can't speak for anyone else on the Board, but I like Toyota because they make damn good cars (as your chart shows). Compared to Toyota, Ford and GM make really bad cars (as your chart shows) which is why I dislike them. If Chevy made a car that was as reliable as your average Toyota and got the mileage of the Prius, I would seriously consider it. But they don't, which is why I drive what I drive today.

    Yes, Buick and Cadillac may make more reliable cars, but they also get horrible gas mileage. Plus (reminding you this is just my opinion) they're really ugly. Unlike my Prius.
     
  5. Dr Ed

    Dr Ed New Member

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    Dr. Edwards Deming pitched his management philosophy to American automakers and was laughed out of their offices. After WW II he took the philosophy to the Japanese auto and tech sectors. Now Japan is light-years ahead of us in auto manufacturing and all other tech sectors except nuclear.

    Ford finally sought Deming's help in 1981. The next year the Taurus-Sable line was born, Ford's most profitable line ever. But their winning streak did not last because they reverted from their newfound quality philosophy back to the primitive quantity philosophy to satisfy their short-term greed fix. Even today as the Big 3 are rapidly being phased out they still refuse to incorporate even Deming's most basic principles. Currently, Ford makes more money on parts and service than new car sales... and that's by design.

    http://www.deming.org/

    GM has the same mindset. They were on the right path when they invented the Saturn line, but before the end of the first year of production they quickly converted from their newfound quality philosophy to a mass quantity philosophy. "Turn out the cars as fast as possible. Screw quality." That's the GM mind set. Remember the plywood floors in the Chevette? Remember the plague of problems with the Fiero? The Fiero was so bad the dealers refused to sell them because they were bogging down their repair shops. Did GM fix the Fiero problem? No. Instead of fixing the problem they closed Fiero plants and laid off workers so the market would not be so heavily flooded with Fieros. They continued making the crap car, just in a smaller, more manageable quantity. For years people died from repeatedly being catapulted out of the Lumina on collision because of faulty seatbelt harness. For years GM refused to acknowledge the defect and fix the problem. That's the GM mindset.

    Lee Iacoca turned Chrysler around quickly. Finally, a quality American car. On his first day as the new CEO the workers rolled his new car straight off the line. He refused it and demanded another car still being manufactured in the line. They tried to talk him out of taking a car off the line at random. He knew the handpicked car given to him had special attention. He wanted to see what the average Joe was going to get in the other car coming down the line. It was loaded with defects. Lee didn't last very long in that job. Seems the shareholders wanted their quick-fix profits they were accustomed to being generated from rapid, quantity production and sale of parts and service. Quality was just not providing that fast enough for them.

    Yes, one can get 100K or even 150K on an American car but it requires frequent, expensive repairs to do that. Americans once thought that was the norm. "Oh, a car is a very complex device and requires lots of repair over time," they would say. Wrong!!! Japanese build cars to last with minimal repair. American cars, by design, are built to self-destruct in three years unless you pay enough money in repair equal to or more than the cost of a new Japanese car.

    The Big 3 relied too long on the notion that we believed it was anti-American to buy foreign cars. Well, the people who believed that are either to old to drive, or died in a rollover or from being thrown from a Lumina. Its too late for the Big 3 now. They are spiraling down the drain. Their only hope is a presidential bail out, which will likely occur a few months before the next election. Its not anti-American to buy a Japanese car. Its anti-American to bend over, grab your ankles, and get screwed by the Big 3.
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I wanted a hybrid. There were only two to choose from. Both Japanese: Honda and Toyota. Why? Because while Toyota and Honda were putting money into engineering cars that would meet the efficiency standards of the future, GM was putting money into lobbying corrupt lawmakers into lowering those standards.

    Four years later, I want an EV. GM had a darn good EV back when I was out of the country, but instead of letting customers buy it, they only leased it, and when the leases were up they took them all back and crushed them. Right now there is no freeway-capable EV you can buy today, but several companies are working on it, and others (including GM) are claiming to be working on it. If the Chevy Volt is the first to hit the dealerships, I will buy one. If a Japanese company is first I'll buy that. Unless I break down and buy one of the high-priced, low-volume, long-waiting-list EVs instead, such as the Tesla or the Tango.

    Also, Porkfriedrice, please note that in today's global economy, there is no such thing as an American-made or a Japanese-made car. Both American and Japanese car companies source their parts globally, based on criteria such as price and quality, and assemble their cars globally, based on local wages and the politics of international trade. A car assembled in America has parts from all over the world, and an American name-plate car is as likely to have been assembled overseas as at home. But where the Japanese companies are willing to pay more for quality parts and quality-control in the assembly of cars, accepting a lower profit margin in order to capture market share, and willing to provide the smaller, more-efficient cars that I and many people want, the American companies cut costs to the minimum in order to increase profit margins, and spend the savings on advertising to convince people to buy their inferior cars, and they concentrate on the huge gas-guzzlers that offer more profit per unit. It's a whole different business philosophy.

    I want a high-quality car that's efficient and less-polluting, and I'll buy it from whoever sells it. Right now that's only Toyota and Honda, and I judge the Prius to have the edge over the HCH, so for me it's Toyota. GM has the technology to get my business. It just chooses not to build the car I want.

    And that's the bottom line: GM has chosen not to build the car I want.
     
  7. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    As a general reference do not just use one report for making a blanket claim. See
    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ty...rison-index.htm
    which depicts a very different story from the one JD Powers show. Basically there are a few GM or FOrd models above average, but the majority of the models listed above average are Toyota or Honda.

    The problem with both reports are that they are based on surveys. Thus record people's perception of quality rather than true quality. The problem with using people's perception is that it is based on their expectation. If you expect lower quality you are less likely to make a fuss about it. SImple example is that I owned an expensive BMW and had issuess with a few rattles in the interior (had it fixed, etc), something that wouldn't even bother me in the Prius or economy car as an example. Teh funny part is most folsk that drove with me didn't even notice it and when I pointed them towards ti they said it is nothign and I shouldn't worry about it. Expectation and perception does not exquate true scientific fact.

    A more accurate way would be to actually record service statistics for every single vehicle. Even if you just use the ones going through the dealers. but I doubt we will get honest stats from the manufacturers and dealers.

    WHat I like about the Consumer reports statistics is that they add weight to serious components like driveline, rather than just reporting total number of faults.

    Bottomline is that when GM and Ford are consistently ranked high on these surveys things will change. They also need to make sure their product meets the market demand, currently GM offers no small or midsize sedan I would even consider. At least Ford brought out the Fusion, which looks interesting and I'm sure time will tell how well it does. This was a market they had captured with the Taurus many years agao, but never invested in it again.

    Hopefully GM and Ford learn their lesson, in that you can't abondon the volume market. People tend to build brand loyalty to what they are familiar with. Both GM and Ford abandonned the midsize truck market and I believe they will pay the price int he full size market a few years down the line. Go look at a Ranger and S10, then compare it to a Tacoma and Frontier. You will see who invested int heir product and who didn't.
     
  8. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    No the product isn't there.

    I looked.

    I went to the Saturn dealership in Nov. 2004 when I started looking for a car. I went there first because I owned a 1996 Saturn SC2 coupe. They didn't carry a coupe anymore. The closest thing they had was an Ion, which I test drove. I didn't like it. It was too big. To me it was a "grandmother" car. Reminded me of something my 70 year old parents would buy. Everything else was bigger or an SUV. They didn't have anything I wanted to buy.

    So I went on the internet to see what else was out there.

    I wanted high gas mileage. I found...hybrids. I had my choice. Toyota Prius or Honda Insight or Civic.

    I found low emissions.

    If found a car that comfortably seated five instead of four and had more trunk space than my old Saturn. (That trunk was a joke.)

    The highest mpg and lowest emissions was the Insight or the Prius. The Insight seated two. The Prius...five.

    So I bought a 2005 Prius in April of 2005.

    I also got a car with the most fabulous transmission I've ever driven. I can't believe how solid the door closes compared to my Saturn. And I'm looking forward to avoiding some of the annoying routine maintenance I had to do on my Saturn. Like replacing the engine clips every few years.

    And I got a hatchback. That was the clincher. I used to have hatchbacks. I love them. I don't understand why I can't get an American car with a hatchback. (I can't understand why I can't get an American hybrid that's NOT an SUV.)

    No. GM did not have the product I was looking for. Toyota did. So that's what I bought.

    GM needs to learn to build the product the public wants, not convince the public that it wants what GM is willing to build.
     
  9. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 11 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]388648[/snapback]</div>
    Excellent point! There's a big difference between a broken cruise-control stalk and a transmission that won't go into reverse. You can hardly count both equally as simply "one fault."
     
  10. Dr Ed

    Dr Ed New Member

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    Consumer Reports data for American autos is not reliable. Although American autos are consistently rated below Japanese cars those data are not the whole picture. The average American auto buyer does not read, and likely has never heard of, Consumer Reports. Therefore, they do not participate in CR's surveys. If they did the American auto ratings would be much worse than they are.
     
  11. ewhanley

    ewhanley New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]388444[/snapback]</div>
    I am not sure people here hate GM. I used to very much be a GM person, but the fact of the matter is they are behind the times due to their complacency. In the US, we have a (relatively) free market economy. One thing about free market economies is that they, without government intervention, do not foster mediocraty. The whole point is to eliminate market inefficiencies and GM is just that, inefficient, in a manner of speaking.

    Nationalism is utter nonsense, and I refuse to buy an inferior product because it is manufactured by an American company. Besides, GM buys most of its parts overseas and has now outsourced a large chunk of their manufacturing to Mexico.

    I am curious as to why an 8th grader holds such a die-hard allegiance to a particular automaker. No offense, but you can't even drive yet. I am not trying to dissuade you from debating others, as I have been a bit argumentative since I was a kid too. Just curious about your allegiance to GM.
     
  12. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    This might be a long one, so im warning you. I just want to address everyones questions and/or points. This took a while too, like a couple hours, so i hope youll read on. If you bear with me then you might find at least something new and enlightening, in which case im glad i could share some knowledge, or prove me wrong and ill be happy to know something new.


    Tony Schaefer-

    I am not that old, which is correct. I wasnt there. I grew up watching countless people araound me constntly complain about the quality of american vehicles and default choose an asian car instead. Not even given a chance, they are jus tossed aside. Were i to assume that everything they said was true, then I wouldnt be here right now ( at least like this would i?) I can't say I know what it is to be an employee at any factory, because that is a lie. I dont know much about how the domestic companys handled jobs and pensions and the like, but I do know that all of them are still paying health care, family benifits, and retiree salerys. those costs are referred to as legacy costs, because it obviously passes from each generation of the company. GM and Ford and even DCX still have a responsibility to pay these costs, and they do, which is part of the reason htey are where they are now. In Japan, the government pays for these, added on as extra taxes. this translates into better return for ever car sold and is part of the reason why they are so profitable. Does toyota offer better treament at their plants? I don't know much about Unions, but ive heard many a person complain that bloated unions that tried to gouge as much money and benifits were part of the reason. Also unions that dont provide compensation for better work and protect the lazy. I cant say I know about this, because i simply dont. But everytime I hear an american company treing to cut unions and see Toyota among other foreign automakers stubbounly fight any unionizing I have to wonder what would cause such a reaction? Outsourcing is used as a cost effective way to produce products in almost any company now, toyota is no different. If you look at all the US designs of just GM and Ford youll discover that they indeed share very little with their foreign counterparts. Even the euro focus and american focus, which, quite obviously i might add, share the same name. all the sheet metal as well as the parts and even the frame are not shared. I gathered this is what you mean by american, is what you are saying that you want? Globalizing and sharing parts is part of forming a sucessful company. though many might disagree, I say a company can be global and say american at the same time. GMs headquaters are located right here in the US of A, and therefore, where profits go and get reinvested. GM pays the highest taxes out of any US company, save for the gas giants, and contributes billions just through the aforementioned taxes. (out of the required taxes, they also give descreet money to charities and organization in America.) Also, on average 83% of the percent of each car sold here by GM is 'american' by your standards. Compare that. That is only in parts, and the fact is GM and Ford still assemble many more cars in the US than say toyota or honda. Also the North American Trade Alliance between Canada, US, and Mexico means that trade is very prolific along these borders and they constantly reinvest in each other, meaning that more of that money from that mexican/canadian made car goes back into our own country than say one made in Japan, who doesnt reinvest back in the US. (Not the best example, but simply look at the trade deficet for an idea.) (As for europeans, they do reinvest in our products, though still not as much as our neighbors) -Note (I noticed when i was on Kelley's Blue Book that country of origin and country of assembly was different. The americans had their origin from American yet a few were assembled in canada. the toyota was japanese but was assembled here. Finally, did you know the UAW charges GM a thousand dollars an any imported vehicle, so they have to contribute to the US economy no matter what.

    Next, I know what the definition of realiability is. If you notice the test says 2005 when Oldsmobile, the oldest surviving American marque, in fact the world's, behind Mercedes and Peugot, was phased out in 2004.
    They conducted the dependability test/survey after a year of use. Unless the word dependability has changed meanings since the last time i looked (1 minute ago) I dont think it means they wrote down information on the way back from the dealer. Other than that, I agree with you about what realiability means. American trucks are known for their dependabillity (example: the existance of a quite healthy 100,000 mile club just for chevy owners.), but the car is/was often neglected, due to the fact that cars didnt really give the American firms and money, as all the return was sucked up by legacy costs, therefore the investment was cut. It makes sence from a financial side, but this is often overlooked. Nonetheless they still made cars, mostly not to cede share to everyone else. Cars in the 21st century are again getting ever more popular, also the image of gas guzzling american vehicles is reflected in a lot of people's minds, so really giving no choice to reenter the market. Witness the new Saturn Aura, winner of the North American Auto Award for cars, (Chevy Silverado won the truck) beating out well known contenders such as (recognize this?) the Toyota Camry. Something has to be going over there at GM. (and Ford, who states that in a head to head comparo by i believe Car and Driver, the AWD Fusion beat out the Camry and Accord, I'm not sure you can fake that.) Try it. (Or wait for the new Chevy Malibu coming soon, its pretty nice looking in my opinion cept for maybe the tail, which I heard looks better in person. lookit up.) And if you have any quarrels, i give you full permission to ignore me and rub it in my face all you want. GM has said it will not engage in any risky or any ventures that could/will lose money, that is part of the reason why they did not get a hybrid first. (whoo!! made it relevant it to the prius so im happy!) I'm not sure if Toyota makes a profit in the Prius through mass production techniques or cost saving techniques yet. Back to the reliability. Detroit cars wernt all bad. A few extra poor examples stood out though,( ie the K-cars and others) and the media used it as fodder and subsequently the entire US auto industry was judged on that, (this may not the most tasteful example, but the closest,) kind of like when you see 'ATROCITIES COMMITED BY US TROOPS' on your TV or hear it on the radio, you cant judge the entire military and US based on those few people. I agree that on the whole the average was still lower than the japanese, but not all the cars are as bad as you say. Lastly, also bound to be the most controversial, is that GM does openly admit its mistakes, at least now (GM delayed all of its new lambda crossovers because of a small cap that loosens slightly in very cold weather to make a small rattle. nothing more.) Where as Toyota apparently covers up quality problems like engine sludge, even when brought to court, do not fix the problem, but instead make a small settlement out of the courtroom. correct me if im wrong.

    I don't think ive ever said ive watched Who Killed the Electric Car, because i havnt. Frankly im not even sure i want to to be honest. Its such a biased look that focuses on the negetive, kind of like the rest of the media. (heres an experiment:ask an austrialian what he thinks of american cars and youll likely get a better response than what we have here.)
    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthr...killed+Electric
    Please dont discount it even its from a GM forum. All the quotes are authentic and I would tell you if there was bias, because I only believe in the truth, and a bias only colors your vision. But there is NO bias here folks. (at least in the article itself, i do not know bout the comments)

    The movie is aimed squarely at GM and its EV1 car, because it was the first ever electric car from an automotive company. The electric car failed for bad sales, it was a failed experiment. Even Toyota defends GM from the movie. GM was just a bigger target, admits the director. Now don't you ever dare use that movie against Gm or any other domestic automaker ever again.

    But I guess all this is for naught, because i guess ill find out in a few years.


    skurse-

    What you said is true. I'm not going to argue. The domestics do have the worst MPG avrage. This is one area where perception is actually closer to reality. Next, I will state the reasons why. the domestics were the first and most prolific in the truck and SUV markets. compare that with Honda's opposition of anything that isnt based on a car, and theres one reason. If you look at Chevy, the fuel economy is actually good. An example is the Impala, which is class leading, rivaled by the Avalon, which isnt as big, i think. DCX apparently, thinks itself too good for mpg, for at least dodge. Maybe the folks across the pond there developing Maybachs (which gets the worst mpg incidentally, yes worse than the Hummers) and Mercedes think that crosshair grille can defy the laws of physics and more specifically, aerodynamics. That, eloquently put, is just a big nice person grille. (though i must say i think the new tundra bulids some of its new 'toughness' off with a big intake, a la Dodge Ram.) The silverado's which is actually a bit disproportinal to the car imo, is good for aerodynamics and therefore fuel economy. (Ive been told it looks better in person but i think the Sierra looks better IMO again) Style is important, and it is a deciding factor for many, and should be one of Detroits allies in the future. The grille is just an example of what people want though, and is a big example when form surpasses function. I agree this has to be something to work on. (some though, more than others.)

    I also spot the victim of more media half truths. The Earth goes through normal cooling and heating phases, and i think i heard that some point in the seventies the fear was a global ice age. Though i agree that humans have a respnsibility to the enviroment, and we should do our part, this is a gross overcompensation by the media and the general public. Humans roughly cause about 1/20 of the air pollution right now (though some of these man made gases may be more toxic than some, as evidenced by the missing ozone.) Cows i think produce 1/5 purely through their asses. Should we kill all of them so their methane cant make that hole in the sky any bigger? Do your part but at least be informed.


    Steve O-
    I read the article about 5 times before using it in my post. What do thkn about Nissan? How about Mitsubishi? or Subaru? Theres about four more japanese brands taking up the bottom of the charts. Nissan consistantly rate lower than the domestics in quality, yet no one knows. This by itself is an example, weather consciously or not, that people group their cars by nationality. and Ford and Chevrolet are both above the industry average, how did you get 'really bad cars' out of that? Ford and Chevy rank 3 and 4 places, respectively below toyota in the graph. This proves you group these two together, though i cant say by country, but what else can it be? Chevy does make dependable cars. wait for the volt. It has better fuel econ then the prius. Its kinda like a hybrid between a hybrid and a fully electric car. Its also unfair to use the Prius because it is a specialized car that only a certain Honda can counter. GMs coming out with the next generation of hybrids though, if you're willing to wait. If not, and still want a domestic, take the Saturn Aura hybrid. Its a hybrid, makes good mpg, not a chevy but by the same company (GM). the prius was an experiment to rocket toyotas image even higher. It worked. I think Toyota was actually losing money for each prius it sold, but after a few generations, its quite possible they found some way to actually be profitable. GM or Ford didnt have that option, sorry.

    Though I appreciate all input, you clearly admit, rather grudgingly, i might add, that Buick and Cadillac, (forgot Lincoln?) are better in quality than toyota, which by the graph you said make 'damn good cars' what what would that make any of these brands I just named? Thats the transitive theory, which im learning about right now in geometry class) Mercury is only one rank below, missing toyota by one point. Then you go on to state that it doesnt matter because theyre ugly.(and let me remind you, styling is highly subjective) Congratulations though. You have not only proved yourself wrong in the same paragraph, but also acheived the conversational equivilant of punching yourself in the face, than saying UR MOM to counter.

    (I like the Prius's styling myself, as well as the xb and tc. Toyota itself seems to be moving in a different direction though, as shown by the new yaris, camry (to a lesser extent,) and the european auris.)


    Dr Ed-
    Let me start off by saying, I like your icon. Second, you are correct about japan leapfrogging us in technology, but for different reasons from what ive heard. Thirdly, very interesting, I havent heard any of this management phylosiphy of Dr. Edwards, which presumeably has a connection to your screename.

    I must admit though that your post casts a decidedly negative light on the domestics. I could be mistaken but im sensing dangerously high levels of bias radiating from the heart of this post. Bias is a dangerous thing my friend. It clouds your thinking and narrows it down to a very tight point of view. Being more objective allows you to view the big picture. Bias is, by definition, a lack of objectivity. Lack of objectivity, in turn, suggests ignorance on one side, and an orientation of feelings on the other. Feelings bring ego along, which urges you to win at any cost. This causes you to lose sight of the bigger goal in turn for a short term one. I believe this is one of the antagonists your Dr. Ed faces according to you. Bias also forces me, in turn to take everything you say with a grain of salt, having to try to seperate fact from feeling.

    I clicked on the link, but i found no connection to automobiles at all, sorry. I am also going to have to apoligize for not being there for those plywood floors either, unless those plywood floors were made after 1993. Also, is that tidbit about parts making ford more money than the actual car true? If so, I am really amazed. Again sorry, but that doesnt even look like t would help much in the short term, as people would just buy a new car as you say with all that money from replacement parts. Sorry for apologizing again, but this sounds like a desperate propaganda from an angry fanatic blindly defending his cause. No company would be that stupid(sorry). You want a rant? ill give you one.

    Did you know that the television was invented in America? Right in the heartland, Ohio. These and other electronics were brought to from the American firms who wanted to sell their products there. The Japanese government refused. In order to sell their products, They had to partner up with their own fledgeling companies much like China making foreign automakers team up with their own to design and make cars there. Thats why there are no foreign made vehicles there. Well the Japanese firms raised the price in their own country, so they could export the same electronics back to america except at dirt cheap prices. this forced the remaining American companies out of existance. Sony all the way to Panasonic line our Wal-Mart shelves now. There happy? The Fiero, to my knowledge was a mid engined sports car that did indeed have many problems, like you said. That said, the original still commands a respectable cult following now, which appreciate it for what it was anyways. This is one of those cars that are used to judge the entire American Auto industry with, like I said above. A niche sports car nonetheless. As for Chrysler's shareholders, what you are suggesting from them is either incredibly stupid behavior, especially of someone who managed to aquire all that wealth in the first place. Either that or it was Toyota execs from the future sabotaging a rival company that may have been the cause of their downfall in an alternate dimension.
    http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf
    go here. This respectable study is made by JD Powers. American cars are actually cheaper to maintain then their Asian and European rivals, both in the short term, long term, any term in between, and unshedualed repairs. That should about wrap it up. (PS I thought the Lumina had 5 star ratings for the front driver and 4 for the passenger?)

    Well as an 8th grader i also hav to worry about homework so ill just have to address these concerns rather quickly.


    daniel-
    Toyota would have crushed all the EVs if not for a last minute save by someone. read above for information on 'Who Killed the Electric Car?'. Also above is 83% of all GM vehicles sold here is american made parts. Including SAAB. They are working on their cars now diligently. witness the Camry beating Saturn Aura. North American Car of the Year. btw, GODIVA, Saturn is a diffent machiene now, modeled on the sucessful european branch of GM known as Opel/Vauxhall. Refer to Legacy costs above in my responce to Tony Shaefer as to why the domestics focus on SUVs/Trucks. Also for the electric car. A little know fact is that the cost to make the prius was larger than the profit, at least at the beginning. GM and Ford didnt have that kind of pocket change. You see a very different face of the Domestics as on the inside, this danger and disadvantage was here a looongg time ago. note- GM doesnt have the tech or the money. The hybrid market has yet to grow large enought to show it can handle any more contenders profitably, and GM annonced with the Volt that it uses technology (like the battery) not fully developed yet. The car is ready and waiting. Ive also heard toyota has urged Japanese battery companies to close their doors to the domestics, forcing them to use their tech or fail, but it could be just a rumor i suspect.


    Bulldog-
    I don't want to sound like i'm just denying contradicting information but see Dr. Eds comment. I dont have much faith in CR way of testing. I believe fact will reflect in perception, eventually ,as perception as not yet caught up. A Niggle is all youll get in a modern GM car. If not, use the 100,000 mile warrenty GM put on EVERY ONE OF ITS CARS so it can come back and bite them in the nice person.


    Ewhanley-

    yes i went to a Toyota site before. One person wished my GM vehicle would blow up. Even if i dont drive, I think that is still kind of offensive, especially as that wasnt even the worst. Youre right. GM was/is cluttered by history and inefficiency. It was bloated and confused when there were new small steamlined companies like Toyota popping up. GM had 9 brands in the US until 2004. Oldsmobile, the oldest survivng american marque, even in the world after Mercedes and Peugot. Nationalism is nonsence, but i was referring to the grouping of domestics vs Japanese grouping people make in their mind. Japanese is seen as high quality. Nissan has much lower quality than the domestics, yet no one seems to notice. Why? Because of the way they see. I am just defending that other side that no one seems to. Look above for more stats. Also since we are the ones preaching free market its harder to intervene, even if EVERYONE else is. Europe and Asian companies help their Auto industries. Hell, a lot of the governments OWN their Industries,such as actually controlling a company to Chinas example. Japan is sneakier. They force tarrifs on foreign cars, even if theyre made inside the country. This adds unreasonable cost to every foreign vehicle, and it is also well documented that japan has messed with their currencies in the past. (look up Japanese Military Yen on Wiki) They are artificially devalueing their currency, or at least keepin it from rising with threats of intervention officialy so every exported vehicle make extra profit for their companies, which they share a bond with. I dont have a history with GM,(like family members inside or such) In fact I am Chinese. I dont have a die hard allegience. I am merely defending fact, to help spread truth. On a more personal level, maybe it was the underdog mentality for me, as well as cool cars from the past a later discovered. If the perception of toyota was different than the truth than i guess i would be on their 'side'. I just saw a huge misconception about an entire nationality of cars, (happening to be my nation) and i was amazed by the widespead ignorance. (I wish i couldve used a better word) Even domestic fans would state their allegiance by the power/looks of a car/brand and appearing not to care about efficiency or the like while actually knowing nothing about cars really.


    END

    Finally, I think quality has been shown to be suffeciently equal. If not, im sure the 100,000 mile warrenty on every GM car is there so can indeed bite them in the nice person soon, as that is truly how all domestic companies work. The last reasons I still see are resale value, which will improve with quality sooner or later, and a really fuel effiecient car like the Prius. ie Volt.
     
  13. bulldog

    bulldog Member

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    Not sure why you point to me as bias?? Maybe read your own posts again. You discard CR, but keep quoting JD Powers when it serves your purpose. That smacks of bias. Go through model by model basis (reason why I like CR as an example) adn also the types of issues reported. CR does it in detial, while I found JD Powers does not. That is much more meaningful for a purchasing decision than propganda material send out. As I stated previously both are based on surveys, thus you need to take all that data with a grain of salt. You can't hold one up to preach, while disregarding the other. What you are doing is only showing your bias and ultimately your ignorance in this space. A true scientific study is based on hard facts, not the collection of opinions and then only using what suites your purpose.

    I was looking forward to a well thought out argument backed by facts. Unfortunately your posts are long on opinion and very short on facts. You will not be able to convince anybody by this method, you are only exposing your own bias.

    Go through the CR data in detail, then go through all the JD Power data in detail. Then come back and tell me again if GM and Ford are in the same quality league as Toyota and Honda.

    Go to the CR link and read how they derive their info, then find out how exactly JDP derive their info. That is why one guy on thsi board is trying to capture data in a better way (truedelta). Both of them are less than ideal, but better than nothing. However quote all their info and not just reports that suite you. At least CR actually buys a lot of the cars and tests them, does JDP?

    Here is the latest JDP report, drill down to the segments.
    http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/rele....asp?ID=2006133

    Until you can come back with more fact and less opinion this conversation serves no further purpose to me. I hear enough opinions on a daily basis.
     
  14. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 12:12 AM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    I willingly admit Buicks and Caddys are fine cars, quality-wise. If I had a few billion dollars, I'd buy the Rolls Royce company just so I could market a model as being "the Cadillac of Rolls Royces". I also admit they get such horrible gas mileage that one has to be an idiot to even consider buying one. What do I think of Nissan, etc.? I think they suck, which is why I don't drive one.

    I want quality AND good gas mileage. My two choices are Toyota and Honda.

    In another thread, I explained I used to drive a Geo Metro. Damn fine car, great gas mileage. When that one died, I immediately went to my Metro dealer to get another one. By this time they were taken over by GM. Still, it looked the same and had the same name, but I took it for a test drive and it was HORRIBLE. EVERYTHING was replaced by cheap plastic, including the engine. Which is why I got a Toyota Echo instead.

    If GM made a car with good quality and great MPG, I'd buy it in a second. But they don't so I don't.
     
  15. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    This is also a long post. Too long apparently for the parser to handle the multiple quotes, so I'll break it into parts.
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 11:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    I'm not going to hold that against you. You've apparently given this more thought than a lot of adults who've bought and sold multiple cars. Altho you must admit you're coming at it with your own bias.

    However, you haven't lived thru the 80's, when the Big-3 suffered greatly because of the high price of oil ('79 oil embargo). That's when the Japanese car makers exploded on the scene, before that they were bit players in the marketplace, but they had the small thrifty cars that Americans suddenly wanted, and Detroit did not. We didn't hold Japanese cars in high esteem then (I think that's when the term 'econobox' was invented), but we bought their cars because it was the right kind of car for the time. Detroit learned their lesson the hard way (bailout of Chrysler comes to mind). Now it looks like they've forgotten it entirely, and are repeating that lesson. It's not up to the American people to overlook their lack of foresight. The age of SUVs is rapidly coming to an end, for a couple reasons, and they need to come to grips on that.

    Also, you need to remember your audience here at PriusChat. We want an efficient vehicle that is practical, well-priced and reliable. That trumps brand loyalty for many of us, probably most of us. This is the first Toyota I've owned. I've always been a bit of a Ford fan, but they don't have the kind of vehicle I want. I'm not even a big fan of the Prius shape, but the rest of the car is so much what I want, I was willing to overlook that. I've waited decades for a car that got better than 40 mpg (without diesel). My 1987 Nissan Sentra approached that.
    That may be true, altho I'm not sure where you got the 83% figure from. (And I got a little confused as to the point of the outsourcing sentences). All I know is if I want to buy a car with good mileage, I might look at the Pontiac Vibe, but that's a twin of the Toyota Matrix, so who get's the money there? The Chevy Aveo is simply a rebranded Daewoo built in S.Korea. Maybe a big American vehicle is more likely to be all-American? Well, the Ford Explorer is built on a Mazda platform with a Mazda Duratec engine. So just looking at vehicles by brand name is not a guarantee of who made it, where it was made, or where the wages and profits go. It's better to look at it model by model.
    Are you saying the Japanese do not reinvest in our country? Every Japanese company has American factories (the Camry is being made on an extra line in the Subaru factory in Kentucky, because Toyota's American manufacturing plants are maxed out). Many foreign car companies have design studios in California (which is where the Prius had some initial design work done). Toyota is expanding their engineering base in Detroit, hiring workers being laid off by the Big-3.
    Yes. those are nice cars. Still not ones I would buy for myself however. The Malibu was supposed to have a hybrid option starting in 2007, but I haven't heard anything official on this lately, so it doesn't look like that's happening. GM's hybrid option only adds 25% to the fuel efficiency anyway, not approx. 75% like Toyota can do.
    Holy smokes! Did they say that? What about the billion+ dollars they spent on hydrogen fuel-cell technology? What kind of money-making prospects did that bring in for them? I lost my shirt in the fuel-cell stocks (figuratively, I only invested money I could afford to lose), because I thought no way would big car companies spend that much money on fuel-cell technology if it was really over a decade away like so many people were saying. Well, it turns out the outside experts were right, and GM and Ford were wrong. I still don't know why they did it.
    Dig deeper, this has happened to all car companies. Think of how hard Ford tried to blame their SUV roll-over problem on Goodyear (they had a case there, but SUVs are prone to roll-overs, and they could have admitted at least partial complicitly rather than being drug by their noses into it).
    Well, this is a whole 'nother thread, but I'll give it a paragraph: The Earth does have normal cooling and heating, but we're knocking it up a couple degrees. CO2 levels have increased 50%, higher than they've been in the last 1/2 million years, and we've done it in the blink of an eye, geologically speaking. We're still in the normal temperature range, but it's been going up and natural events won't stop it. You have the most to lose, since you'll be living in it longer than most of us. The "global cooling" was something that the media briefly played around with (Time magazine, etc.) due to a short-term trend, not the serious science journals. Global warming was a serious concern even then. Soylent Green was made in the 70's and is based on a future affected by global warming, just as an easy reference to the point that the idea was around even then.
    Not sure what you mean that humans cause 1/20th of air pollution. Do you mean global-warming gases? Otherwise it's much higher than that. We also raise the cows that give off methane (which largely could be collected from the manure piles and used as a fuel for electricity production, if we wanted to - some ethanol plants are doing just that). But also we cut down tropical forests (carbon sinks) to raise cattle, and in the states we raise cattle on feedlots where we have to truck in (using petroleum) corn to feed them which is raised using petroleum-based herbicides and fertilizers. So we're definitely responsible for the cow's emissions and then some. Okay, that's two paragraphs.

    For an added reason for efficiency, beyond the above GWG concerns and health effects such as increased asthma rates, you might want to read up on peak oil. You will be living that as well at some point in your adult life, guaranteed (unless a sizable fraction dies from a pandemic first, or global warming convinces the world to impose very strict limits on fossil fuel usage).


    Part II of reply.
    Yes, we are waiting for the Volt. We've been waiting a long time for some good news to come from Chevy, and we'll buy it if they make it practical, economical and reliable. (Yes, some may not buy it just because it comes from GM, but those people are very limited in number, certainly not the average American consumer).
    Why is it unfair to use the Prius as an example??
    That's the whole point! GM or another American company could have made something like that much sooner had they put the effort into it. Clinton had a program that he enrolled the American companies in, called the Partnership for Next Generation Vehicle (PNGV). The goal was to produce a vehicle capable of 80 mpg, could hold a family of four, and could be economically produced. Our U.S. government put millions of tax dollars into this research. Toyota got worried, tried to enter this program but was denied, so they went ahead and made their own hybrid, as did Honda. Bush came into office, disbanded PNGV in favor of his fuel-cell pie-in-the-sky program that will never produce an economically-viable vehicle, and the Big-3 tried to forget everything they learned about high-mpg cars.
    That hits close to home. I worked at Zenith for a number of years. They sued several overseas (Japanese and Korean) companies for illegally dumping TV sets at below-cost to gain market share. Eventually the remains of the company was bought by the South Korean conglomerate LG (Lucky Goldstar, to the old-timers here), and there's a very small R&D center still existing in the far north suburbs of Chicago. But Zenith also made plenty of mistakes and went thru a succession of CEOs who tried various tactics to turn things around. They almost made their niche in cable set-top boxes, owned something like 80% of the U.S. market at one point, then abandoned it because they thought digital was next and they had to be ready. Turned out they came in too soon and the market (and the product) wasn't ready yet. They have other stories like that. But what's the point? The point is, some companies acted illegally, and Zenith made several costly mistakes. I don't think the foreign car companies are acting illegally by selling well-made cars at a good price that still brings them a profit. That's just called capitalism.
    But they did. They were both bigger than Toyota, they had government funding much of the R&D. And as mentioned above, GM spent over a billion dollars chasing a fool's dream with the hydrogen fuel-cell. Toyota now makes a profit on their hybrids, otherwise they wouldn't be so eager to expand it to all their product lines, as they have stated is their goal. I don't think they're in it for the good of mankind.
    Completely agree. But you've been trying hard to disprove just that, IMO. I know there's no love lost from the Chinese regarding Japan, I hope that's not your motivation.
    You've definitely got a point there. But remember the U.S. bailed out Chrysler from bankruptcy, and that took a lot of dollars. We've done some R&D projects to help our companies, but like our other industries, they're supposed to compete on the basis of capitalism. Not rely on some misguided approach of patriotism.

    Bottom line - in the absence of a good American car with the qualities I want, I choose to send my money (at least partly) to Japan instead of OPEC.
     
  16. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 12:12 AM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    When I bought my SC2 coupe Saturn was an autonomous department, independent of GM.

    When I went to shop for a car in 2004 it had been assimilated and was being run by GM. You may call it modeled on Opel/Vauxhall and also call it successful. I'm telling you that as a customer they had nothing I was interested in. And I didn't care for the design, size or function of any of the cars nor the quality of the Ion I test drove.

    BTW you'll make a great Republican when you grow up.
     
  17. porkfriedrice

    porkfriedrice New Member

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    Dear Steve O-

    As I understand it, Geo was always part of GM, It was created by GM and ended by GM. All models were shared with Japanese Automakers. The Metro, specifically I belive, was shared with the Suzuki Swift at the time.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_%28automobile%29#Metro

    As of right now, I believe GM does have a car to meet your specifications, but it depends. Im sorry but theres only so much information i can extrapolate (is that right? vocab homework extra cred!) from 'great mpg' If you mean Prius type, then youre right, you cant buy it if they dont sell it. GM tried to shoot ahead of the curve with the Volt incorperating future tech. That also means you have to wait till that techs ready, so I think thatll be 2010 i heard from somewhere. (officially 2011 but that was to fool the compitition, dont tell anyone.)
    Hope your Toyota- made Prius can survive that long. Yno, those toyotas, cant depend on them at all nowadays.

    (PS- Also, a plastic engine? Thad make for an interesting drive.)

    Dear Bulldog-


    Glad you checked back. I believe that was Dr. Ed i was talking about, Its clearly labeled. It was also Dr. Ed whao said that bit about Consumer Reports before I did, so its not like im just making stuff up againt CR. I would never do that sort of thing. If there is one thing I hate, its the media when they twist truths and leave out facts to form a half truth that midsleads people, all ultamately for ratings. I agree neither is perfect, but I think, again, this is opinion here not fact, that CR is even less accurate. I dont know how JDPowers collects data, but I dont think you can buy a copy off the bookshelf so its probaly different. There are jsut too many variables in Consumer Reports, which is exactly what it is. Consumers Reporting to otehr consumers. too open to personal bias. You can prety much call anything against you bias, but that wouldnt be true. I am really glad to hear about the trueDelta thing though, I think that is really important and should catch on. From now on ill try to post more links on where I found my data. And I really do try to separate my opinion from fact. look for 'i think's and whatnots to identify them. I think Ford and GM are in the same league as Toyota and Honda, answering your question. Maybe even in the same ballpark, just behind a couple of innings and catching up quick. Perception, though is still a couple of seasons behind.
     
  18. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    I think you need to work on your own bias and your own research skills. Try using the Big 6.

    Consumer Reports.

    "Consumer Reports® and ConsumerReports.org® are published by Consumers Union, an expert, independent nonprofit organization whose mission is to work for a fair, just, and safe marketplace for all consumers and to empower consumers to protect themselves. To achieve this mission, we test, inform, and protect. To maintain our independence and impartiality, CU accepts no outside advertising, no free test samples, and has no agenda other than the interests of consumers. CU supports itself through the sale of our information products and services, individual contributions, and a few noncommercial grants. Consumers Union is governed by a board of 18 directors, who are elected by CU members and meet three times a year. CU's President, James Guest, oversees a staff of more than 450.

    How we test

    Our National Testing and Research Center, in Yonkers, N.Y., is the largest nonprofit educational and consumer product testing center in the world. We buy all the products we use as test samples. We receive no special treatment. We accept no free samples. If a manufacturer sends us a free product, we return it.

    More than 100 testing experts work in seven major technical departments--appliances, auto test, baby & child, electronics, foods, health & family, and recreation & home improvement, while more than 25 research experts work in three departments--product acquisition, product information, and statistics & quality management. In addition, we have more than 150 anonymous shoppers throughout the country. We test cars and trucks at our fully equipped auto-test facility in East Haddam, Conn. We also survey our millions of readers to bring you information on the reliability of hundreds of auto models and of major products such as appliances and electronic gear. Reader-survey data also help us rate insurance and other consumer services.

    How we inform

    Consumer Reports magazine alone has about 4 million subscribers. We reach millions more consumers through ConsumerReports.org, our CR Money Adviser newsletter, our health newsletter and Web site www.consumerreportsonhealth.org , radio programs, television programs, auto price services, and New Car Buying Kit. For more information, see Our products.

    How we protect

    Your safety is a priority. Our research and testing uncovered dangers that led to the Flammable Fabrics Act, the Child Protection and Toy Safety Act, and many product recalls, government standards, and regulations. Check Recalls on this site to learn of hazardous consumer products. All product safety-related reports are free to all site visitors.

    Consumers Union operates three Advocacy offices--in Washington, D.C., Austin, Texas, and San Francisco--that work on consumers' behalf on such issues as health care, food safety, financial services, and product safety. They testify before Federal and state legislative and regulatory bodies, petition government agencies, and file lawsuits on behalf of consumers. The Consumer Policy Institute, at CU's Yonkers, N.Y., headquarters, conducts research and education projects on issues of importance to consumers such as biotechnology, food safety and labeling, recycling, and sustainable consumption. For more information, see ConsumersUnion.org and in Spanish, PoderdelConsumidor.org ."

    J. D. Powers

    J. D. Power works off consumer surveys. It's a marketing company.

    "Established in 1968, J.D. Power and Associates is a global marketing information firm that conducts independent and unbiased surveys of customer satisfaction, product quality and buyer behavior. Today, the firm’s services include industry-wide syndicated studies; proprietary (commissioned) tracking studies; media studies; forecasting; and training services, as well as business operations analyses, and consultancies on customer satisfaction trends. On April 1, 2005, J.D. Power and Associates became a business unit of the McGraw-Hill Companies.
    J.D. Power and Associates is best known for its work in the automotive industry. However, in recent years, the firm has expanded to serve a number of other industries including telecommunications, travel and hotels, marine, utilities, healthcare, homebuilder, consumer electronics and financial services.

    The firm has also expanded internationally, bringing the language of customer satisfaction to consumers and businesses in India, Japan, Taiwan, China, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, South Africa, Canada, Mexico, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and France.

    J.D. Power and Associates includes more than 750 professional analysts, statisticians, economists, consultants, experts in demographics and consumer behavior, and administrative support personnel. Headquartered in Westlake Village, California, a suburb north of Los Angeles, the firm has five U.S. offices and international locations serving Canada, the United Kingdom/Europe and the Asia Pacific region. J.D. Power III is the founder and Stephen C. Goodall is the president"

    I'll take Consumer Reports over J. D. Powers any day.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 12 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]388786[/snapback]</div>
    In California the Prius hybrid system is warranteed for 10 years or 150,000 miles.

    There is a cab in Canada that has over 250,000 miles on it.

    Are you this sloppy with your homework?
     
  19. Sufferin' Prius Envy

    Sufferin' Prius Envy Platinum Member

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    Dang! I was hoping the original post was the first sign that Danny reinstated the [you] code.
    No such luck. My SPE handle really is the third word. :(

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]388786[/snapback]</div>
    We promise not to mention the GM Volt as some type of testimony toward GM's engineering prowess until GM actually starts mass production. Until then, the GM Volt is nothing more than vaporware.

    GM shot ahead of the curve with the EV1 . . . then they just shot the EV1s. :rolleyes:
     
  20. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    Every product ever produced is more expensive to make at the beginning than its purchase price. Let's say you invest $10,000 to design a toaster, and your first production run of 100 toasters sells for $25 each. You lose money. But you haven't really "lost" money. You've invested in R&D, which will pay off if your toaster is a commercial success. You took a risk that people will like your new design.

    Toyota invested a lot of money in R&D to develop its hybrid design, so that "at first" it appeared to a non-economist to "lose" money. In fact, it took a risk. Now it's making a nice profit on the Prius, even though the sticker price has not increased more than inflation.

    And, by the way, this was not a "little know[n] fact." If you'd been here on Prius Chat in 2004 you'd have seen long threads discussing the question at great length.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    And yet they have the money to throw away on a dead-end technology like hydrogen fuel cells. Note that fuel cells do nothing to solve the energy crisis, because hydrogen is just a carrier of energy, not a source. If you have electricity to make hydrogen, you can run cars directly from electricity, and you don't need hydrogen or expensive fuel cells; if you have hydrogen, you can burn it in a heat engine (internal or external combustion) and you don't need fuel cells.

    Fuel cells themselves are outrageously expensive. GM is promoting them precisely to forestall realistic technologies.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    Very convenient: Just like fuel cells, GM announces a car that cannot be built. Companies like Tesla and Tango are building EVs now, but because of their small size and small capitalization, they can only make small quantities and therefore can only enter the high-performance specialty market. GM, with its economy of scale, could mass-produce the Volt now if it wanted to. It would have around a 250-mile range on a 5-hour charge, or a 200-mile range on a 2-hour charge and would cost more than an econobox, but the market is there, since this range would satisfy many families as their city car.

    But GM does not want to sell an EV, what GM really wants to do is announce to the world that EV technology is not ready yet. "We have the car, and we'll sell it as soon as the technology is available." But that's a lie. The technology is here today.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]388745[/snapback]</div>
    Not sure what you mean by this.

    Elsewhere in your post you ask why Americans won't consider American cars. But this is because your horizon is limited by your age. My first car was American-made and it was junk from the day I drove it off the lot, and the service was lousy, and it took forever to get parts for it. It often left me stranded in rural North Dakota (where I lived at the time) and repair times were so long that I was without transportation for long periods. You see, like you, I favored American companies when I was young. But the American companies let me down. They claim to have changed. Wife-beaters make the same claim. A man who hits his wife once will hit her again. The American companies have abused their customers, and you cannot blame those customers if we mistrust their claims to have changed.

    My second car was Japanese, and it never once left me stranded. When things needed replacement on regular maintenance schedule, the repairs were done quickly as parts were quickly available.

    Once burned, twice shy.

    But I repeat what I said earlier: I'm looking forward, and I want an EV. First one to the gate gets my business. GM has the technology to build that car, and I will buy a GM if they are first with the car I want. I'm not prejudiced against them. I'm just angry they won't build the car I want. In 2004 I wanted a hybrid and there was no American hybrid. Just three hybrids were on the market, from two companies, both Japanese. GM could have built a hybrid. GM did and does have the money for R&D. They chose not to, and they still choose not to.