Water softener, yes or nay?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jan 31 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]383667[/snapback]</div>

It is all what you're used to. If you enjoy the feeling of "hardness" on your skin, then don't get a softener. That feeling of "forever soapy" is a wonderful feeling once you get used to it, and once you realize that you are actually feeling your skin without a layer of minerals on it. You might feel slippery, but the soap comes off just as fast. And you don't need as much of it. The slippery feel is what your skin is supposed to feel like!

Oh, and it keeps the rings from forming on all your appliances, and makes every one of them last longer. If you suffer from any sort of skin ailment (as I do) then a softener is just about mandatory.

Bottom line - if you're happy with the way your water is, don't fix it.

 

Hotels have a different kind of water softener. I don't know how it works, but it does not leave your skin feeling slippery. You get "squeaky-clean" in a hotel shower. Therefore, I do NOT believe that your skin is "supposed" to feel slippery.

I have a water softener. As noted above, its purpose is to protect the plumbing and appliances from mineral build-up. I get rid of the slippery feeling by rubbing myself all over with a wet washcloth after I soap and rinse.

The slippery feeling, far from being normal, is either the salts in the softened water, or a very light soap residue. The washcloth gets it off. That salt in the water cannot be good for you when you drink it, either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jan 31 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]383667[/snapback]</div>

As I live in an area where the mains water is hard I'm conscious of the problem as some appliances and fittings have to be descaled periodically. On the other hand hard water is said to be healthier to drink because it provides needed salts and reduces heart and circulation disease.

I've thought about getting a water softener installed but have resisted a type which is widely advertised here. It basically consists of a coil of wire which is wound around your main inlet for a few inches and is charged with a small amount of electricity. Does this simple idea really work? I did some research on the net a couple of years ago and although I found several 'scientific' papers which supported this method all were published by sellers and manufacturers. I could not find a single independent study based on proper research which showed that this really works.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Oxo @ Feb 1 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]383774[/snapback]</div>

Basically, no.

The best working kind of softener is the "ion exchange" type, in other words the kind that uses salt. You can choose to use traditional sodium chloride (NaCl) (table salt) in the softener, or you can use potassium chloride (KCl). The KCl choice is better since it doesn't kill plants and adds some potassium to your diet (many people are deficient in K, but almost no one suffers from a Na shortage). Drinking 8 glasses of water treated with KCl contains about as much K as a large banana.

 

We're on a well, and when we started out the water tests were borderline for 'needing' one, but we'd be fine without one.

We were fine, but started seeing a bit of 'rust' stains on the dishwasher and dishes so I found a deep discount on a high end softener at Sears, did the installation myself and the water is much nicer for everything all around now.

It doesn't seem to have high electricity requirements and we put about $50 in salt a year into it. It flushes itself out every few days so I guess that uses water from the planet that otherwise would stay in the ground.

I'm glad we put ours in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 1 2007, 01:53 AM) [snapback]383713[/snapback]</div>

Most people plumb their houses so that you don't drink the soft water. You usually run hard water to the drinking faucets and the outdoor spigots.

As for slime verses squeak, I can't say what sort of equipment is common in hotels, but they could be using a deionizing filter. A normal water softener uses an ion exchange process to swap sodium ions for calcium ions. The resulting soft water has just as much as many ions, they are just different ions. Sodium ions mostly mind their own business and stay out of the way, where calcium ions react with soap and neutralize it, plus they leave calcium deposits on plumbing fixtures. A deionzing filter also does this, but adds a second step where the converted ions are trapped and removed from the water. It's more expensive, so I'd be surprised that hotels do it, but perhaps limited deionzing might be cheaper or more cost effective. They could be using a reverse-osmosis unit, which reduces minerals by forcing water through a very fine membrane. That's a fairly cost effective system when done on a commercial scale.

Tom

 

I base my statement that hotels are using water softeners on the fact that I never see any mineral build-up. But it's not (generally) reverse osmosis because if it was it would taste good, which it seldom does.

An expensive unit would probably pay for itself in saved plumbing maintenance costs.

Are de-ionizing units available in sizes suitable for family homes?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Feb 1 2007, 11:42 AM) [snapback]383908[/snapback]</div>

Evan, you are correct that the salt is only used as a brine solution to recharge the softener. Sodium ions remain in the softener core, where they are traded as needed for calcium as water is used. So while you don't have salt in the softened water, you do have sodium ions, in direct proportion to the hardness of the water.

As a completely unrelated side comment, I get a kick out of suggestions made by spell checkers when they run into names. For efusco, my spell checker suggests fiasco.

Tom

 

I have a water softener too. As noted above I also have a well, its purpose is to protect the plumbing and appliances from mineral build-up also keeps the clothes from getting dingy or turning yellow.

The slippery feeling, is a side effect to some /not all softening systems I have the Salt/charcoal filter units that automaticly back flushes once a week . no salty water no slippery soapy residue.

Note I originally had city water & sewer, untill it backed up into the house... Now I ghave a well /septic.!

When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of being slippery afer a water softened shower, Oooohhhh ahhhhh... :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 1 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]383898[/snapback]</div>

Another thought is that most hotels are on city water. Municipal water systems often treat water for hardness and other impurities. In the case of hardness, they use a precipitation system, where chemicals such as sodium carbonate are added to large ponds of water and allowed to sit. The chemicals cause the calcium to precipitate out, after which the water is drawn from the pond and used.

Completely deionized water is never used for normal domestic water applications as it is highly corrosive. It will pull metal out of pipes and plumbing fixtures. It is used in laboratory applications, to dilute chemicals, for rinsing where water spots are a problem, and in boilers where it is recirculated and rapidly reaches equilibrium.

For an entire family home, you would be better off with a pumped reverse osmosis unit. The pumped units differ from the normal little drinking water systems by using a high pressure pump to force water through a membrane. There are considerable costs involved, which is why ion exchange water softeners are commonly used.

Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 1 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]383898[/snapback]</div>

Hotels also have a person go in and clean the room everyday.

A true de-ionizer would be a bad idea for the whole house. It will pit and weaken stainless steel over time. So copper and steel probably won't do much better. Labs, and other places with central di water, use plastic plumbing for it. I've also heard it'll eventually take the enamel off your teeth.

I guess there are selective de-ionizers to take out specific stuff. I don't see how they would be cost competitive with a standard softener. Actually the system here at work pre-softens the water before di-ionizing it.

The only people who have to worry about drinking softened water are those on sodium restricted diets.

Washing with softened water also requires less soap. Something like 20% less.

edit: Gbee beat me to it on the post, but to add a commemnt on reverse osmosis. It also wastes water. The minerals taken out are just super concentrated in some of the water and dumped down the drain. It'll produce X amount of purified water from X+Y source water. The small units I've looked at for aquariums waste up to 25% of the water going in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 31 2007, 11:21 PM) [snapback]383673[/snapback]</div>

Also on a well here and have the following (in order from ground to tap):

- Pellet chlorinator on the well stack
- Neutralizer to lower the acidity and reduces turbidity
- Iron-buster removal unit
- Ion (Pottasium Chloride) softener (hose bibs come from this point)
- Carbon filtration unit (for the household)
- Faucet filtration unit (only on the kitchen sink)

And after all that it's ALMOST good enough to drink!

We use it to wash and bathe but still cannot drink the water in our house :-(

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 1 2007, 02:53 AM) [snapback]383713[/snapback]</div>

Seems we were in a real nice hotel not too long ago that told us their system was reverse osmosis.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShellyT @ Feb 1 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]383939[/snapback]</div>

That's why the pumped units are much better for large scale use. The little ones use line pressure to force the water through the membrane, and require a constant purge to remove the sludge as it builds up. The pumped units also use some water to back-flush the filter, but only occasionally and with much less water, much like ion exchange units when they recharge.

Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rand Reed @ Feb 1 2007, 12:33 PM) [snapback]383942[/snapback]</div>

Sheeesh! You'd think it would be easier and cheaper to fuse water out of pure energy. :blink:

Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 31 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]383713[/snapback]</div>

This is such a subjective term that we probably shouldn't even be using it. My skin doesn't feel "slippery" with soft water - it feels clean. Compared to washing in hard water, I guess my skin feels like it still has some natural oils in it, which some may feel as "slippery."

Again, it may be the term. But google around, and you'll find that without mineral deposits on your skin, your skin WILL feel more slippery. If it is "normal" to not have mineral deposits on your skin is left up to debate.

There is so little salt in salt-softened water that it is hardly worth mentioning. And soft water is no worse at rinsing soap off of of skin as hard water is. So if it is soap you're feeling, that soap would still be there if you had rinsed in hard water. The hard water just hides the slippery feeling of the soap. In other words, it is much easier to leave soap on your skin by rinsing with hard water - because you don't notice it.

You'd have to drink a gallon (or more - can't recall off the top of my head) of the soft water to get as much salt as you'd find in a single slice of white bread.

Not meaning to argue. Just pointing out some of the stuff that I learned when I studied softeners a while back when it was time to replace my dead one. (seems like we're butting heads these days! - sorry!)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jan 31 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]383667[/snapback]</div>

I got kinda lost in the discussion, but the short answer is get one if you need it - that is, have your water tested first and then ask what the recommendations are.