Consumeraffairs.com again

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Jan 29 2007, 01:17 PM) [snapback]382315[/snapback]</div>

After Consumer Affairs botched their 'findings' that the Prius IS more economical than a full blow ICE of similar size (never mind the Baby seat debacle) . . . one would think they'd do their research a little better (did I just sound like the Geico cave man ? :lol: I think I just lost my apetite)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 29 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]382324[/snapback]</div>

Sigh. Reading such a news story with their "findings," while knowing what the real deal is as a Prius owner, never ceases to dismay me into thinking that if most "news reporting" is of this same caliber, then most news reporting is nothing better than a game of "telephone" gone bad.

 

oh no, my tires won't spin!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 29 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]382324[/snapback]</div>

The baby seat thing was Consumer Reports. I think Consumer Affairs is a different bunch of folks. Consumer Reports used to be somewhat useful and informative.

 

OK, I'm gonna be the one to bite.
I got my Prius last year at the end of our snow season (Feb 06). Since then, I've been keenly aware of the posts on the "problem" discussed in the article and have been fearful of being stranded on my way home from work. My commute to/from work has a couple of places, such as traversing the river canyon for instance, that far exceed the grades mentioned in that article. Fortunately, there's been no snow to speak of yet, but I know it's coming sooner or later.
When the snow/ice do get bad, there are usually a handfull of rear wheel drive vehicles stranded on the hills, but I can't recall ever seeing a front-wheel car getting stuck.
Anyway, a lot of finesse is required to ascend the hills and a lot of wheel spin is a big part of it. When I had a 4 wheel drive, it too would experience some side slipping. An experienced driver turns the wheel to meet it and keeps on going. No biggy.
Is Toyota saying that I shouldn't be driving a car at all in those conditions 'cause it's too dangerous?
COME ON TOYOTA, this is the real world! We have to live our lives without you having to do ALL the thinking for us!
Why isn't there a way to safely disable the Traction Control to allow you to at least get your car out of the patch of ice and be on our way?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 29 2007, 11:40 AM) [snapback]382324[/snapback]</div>

You're thinking of Consumer Reports, which is generally reputable. Consumer Affairs is a group trolling for people with complaints and ready to sue. If you visit their website their only feedback option is to complain about a product. (TonyPSchaefer and I used this feature last month to complain about their disreputable articles, I never got a call from their lawyer asking who to sue, I doubt Tony did either).

 

My buddy's 4wd suburban got stuck on a similarly steep driveway a few weeks ago. One of the wheels in the back and one in the front would spin, and the truck started to slide downhill. We ended up walking to the house (1/4 mile) and the next day he got out his tractor with tire chains to pull it up the hill. The next day after that the ice melted.

Wanting tires to spin is kind of a strange desire. It really only helps under certain conditions, most of which are rare.

Better tires might be in order (for the Prius and the Suburban).

Nate

 

Sorry to say anything negative about the Prius in this forum, but I agree with the complaint. My new car has a differential slip where it progressively reduces the power to the wheels - not shut it off abruptly as in the case of my former Prius. (I check back here once in a while to see if people are now reporting the problems I experienced that caused me to sell the car).

It's the same problem when applying the brakes. If the wheel loses traction, the regenerative drive disengages and the real brake is engaged. The time it takes to do this is too long and causes the car to lurch forward. Anyone driving in downtown Seattle hitting a man hole cover in the wet will know this.

I know you love your Priuses - but as with ALL cars, they're not perfect. Dismissing such issues is not going to help in applying pressure to Toyota to improve their product. If I recall, members of this forum dismissed the car stalling issue saying owners probably ran out of gas. But then the truth came out, it was an issue with the car.

And I really do not care much for people who dismiss this as a user issue. It's a car for heaven sake. You put your foot on the accelarator and the car should move forward - not stop abruptly. You put your foot on the brake, it should slow the car down - not make it lurch forward.

Never mind - summer is on the way and all the rattles in the car should reduce in volume

 

It's a fair complaint. It should be possible to make the traction control system limited slip, something which protects the drive system yet still allows the wheels to turn when commanded. Even so I would expect that some people who think of spinning drive wheels as a replacement for a snow shovel, snow tires, a light foot on the gas (*), or common sense and caution in treacherous situations would still be disappointed.

(*) It is not possible to stall the Prius engine, which means that going up a slippery surface even at 1 MPH is feasible; I do this on my driveway as needed. Of course this does not allow a Prius to dig itself out of snow or mud or escape oncoming traffic on gravel with jet propulsion.

 

I imagine it's disabled because Toyota figures they'll have far fewer complaints about the occasional trac issue than if they enabled trac disengagement and people started burning out their hybrid synergy drives.

 

As a fair weather driver, perhaps someone could enlighten me. Is the point of spinning the tires in snow or mud to dig down to something more firm? Hopefully before you're buried up to the axle? I thought that was the purpose of sand or a nice piece of plywood.

 

The very best video I've ever seen showing the operation of a well-designed ABS, Traction Control, and Stability Control system:

http://stage6.divx.com/members/222398/videos/1044084

I highly doubt a Prius could have made it up the ice ramp. That's exactly the kind of situation where people complain about a Prius "shutting down".

By the way, Tiff Needell of Fifth Gear is an ex-Formula 1 driver from the '70s, so think first before you claim that the driver in the video is unskilled and that you could do better.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy @ Jan 29 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]382487[/snapback]</div>

If only the Prius worked that well. BTW, Tiff Needell was crap at F1.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Porridge @ Jan 29 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]382501[/snapback]</div>

You have to have a certain amount of ability just to get there - even as a paying driver. This was all long before I had an interest in the sport so I have no idea whether he brought money or not. But yeah, his F1 career was two races including a DNQ. IIRC, Bobby Rahal and Danny Sullivan's F1 careers were comparable, and both of those guys won the Indy 500 and one or more CART championships. Crap at F1 perhaps, but not crap as drivers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Porridge @ Jan 29 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]382501[/snapback]</div>

Can't see the video on my work computer, so I can't comment directly, but I'm sure Tiff Needell is still a better driver than 99.999% of Americans. Does Formula-1 skills translate to ice-handling skills however?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Jan 29 2007, 04:39 PM) [snapback]382486[/snapback]</div>

Sand (or ashes, or salt, or wood of some kind) is a good option, and definitely helps. However, that means you have to A) plan ahead, and B ) get out of the car and do something. We're not used to doing something like that anymore.

Spinning is generally not a good thing, since it can turn a snow base into ice, more often than it will dig down to something harder. In the old days, it was almost unavoidable, so you'd rock the car (go into reverse until it just started spinning or out of the rut, then go forward until it started spinning), so it was kind of part of the process. Also, with FWD, you can try to "walk it out" - turn the drive wheels back and forth and instead of spinning in one spot, creating ice, you are in a new spot and might find some traction. Key word is might. But if you can keep the tires moving, even if you aren't making much forward progress, there's the possibility you'll get to a better spot where you can then get some momentum and then get out. When the tires don't move, you can't even try to do that.

I'm not a tranny/generator expert, but it sure seems to me Toyota could have done this differently. OTOH, I've had the car almost a year in Chicago, and have yet to have any real problem. Of course, we also have essentially no hills here. But when we get some good snow for real, I want to try it out on a quiet hilly road nearby, get some experience with it. (It's snowing lightly today, but it's a cold dry snow, and that's not slippery enough). I didn't think to try it on hills with our early December snowstorm, just went around the block before the snowplows cleared it off completely, and had no problems with that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jan 29 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]382524[/snapback]</div>

I love my Prius, but indeed, there's room for improvement here, IMHO. The issue for me is the abruptness which wich the TC kicks in, and the large time-slice it uses. You pull out into traffic and the inside front wheel slips a tiny bit, and the car cuts abruptly into glide mode for what feels like an eternity but is probably only a second or less. Instead, it should monitor the situation every 1/20 second at least, like any good ABS does, and make minor corrections. If backing off a little bit for a tiny fraction of a second doesn't do the job, it should back off a little more and a little more. And yes, it should be willing to put up with a little bit of wheel slip to account for the occasional bit of road salt, or to let you keep momentum up a slightly slippery hill.

 

we had some snow and i have a steep driveway as well. i had one time that was posted here where i started to slip and eventually stopped half way up. but i just backed up. took a run at it and made it no probs.

but my driveway is short, a big hill might have issues on standard OEM tires, but if you are in a snow and ice area, you need to dress your car accordingly and that applies to ALL cars.

now will tires cure everything. probably not. pretty sure there were a few here with snow tires that had issues as well, but is that a Prius only issue??? doubtful. when we had our snowstorm it started just before kickoff of a monday night game that the Seattle Seahawks were playing in. the driving conditions after the game was pretty bad and there were over 150 vehicles that were abandoned on various freeways in the area simply because they could not, or didnt feel comfortable negotiating the hills in the area. i had the opportunity to drive these freeways in my Prius the next morning and had minimal issues (ya ok, average speed was 15 mph in places!!) while weaving in and out of tow trucks hauling, SUV's, 4 wheel drives and vehicles of nearly every description. although im sure there probably was a few out there, did not see any Priuses sitting on the roads.

btw, that being able to spin at will... well, need to look at why Toyota made that decision... also during the drive, saw nearly a dozen accidents being cleared away, other than one van, and a POS stationwagon, ALL were 4 wheel drive vehicles sitting in the ditches.