Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

"CNW Marketing Research Inc." is a well-known and little-respected shill for Detroit.

 

and this confirms it:

 

Would it help to reference some of the most recent Toyota press releases where CNW study is addressed ?

Also, it would probably help to use the latest Consumer Reports' reliability ratings that place hybrid vehicles at the top of their classes for reliability. Heck, even the Escape hybrid does better than its gas-only counterpart (which ranked at the very bottom).

Cheers;

MSantos

 

http://www.andykerr.net/Energy/Kerr_Hybrid.pdf

The above article by Andy Kerr in Home Power magazine really convinced me to make my Prius purchase when I was running the numbers. Of course the numbers weren't everything, but I had to be armed and dangerous for those people who just can't fathom the economics. I've attached a copy of the spreadsheet. His article busts many of the myths about Hybrids.

 

WOW... talk about analyzing the angles. great spread sheet info. although, i think that gas will be rising much faster than his predicted rate. seems like the last 3 years, the price of gas has accelerated upwards. i think that trend will continue.

 

Here are some common myths that my coworker's neighbor quoted. Debunk these if you can. . .
- The hybrid battery will die after only 6 years.
- The hybrid battery will cost $6,000 to replace.



Toyota, who ought to know, says:

http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyvi...ll/battery.html

Q: Do the high-voltage batteries ever need to be checked or serviced by the owner or by a dealer?

GS: No, there is no scheduled maintenance for the batteries.

Q: How long do the high-voltage batteries last?

GS: We designed them to last for the life of the vehicle. We're aware of owners who have racked up a quarter-million miles without replacing the batteries.

Q: What would it cost to replace a complete battery pack?

GS: Less than $3000, plus labor.

Q: How long is the warranty?

GS: The high-voltage batteries are warranted for eight years or 100,000 miles, and under California regulations the battery warranty extends to 10 years or 150,000 miles.


(km) If the batteries are only good for six years, but they are warrantied for eight to ten years, then Toyota is going to be giving every owner a new replacement battery for free. Sounds like a sweet deal for the owner. Or it could be that they know what they are doing, and the batteries really do last as long as any other system on the car.

If you don't want to go the dealer route you can go to eBay and enter the search string:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?c...itSearch=Search

it will show you a variety of Prius traction batteries that have been pulled from wrecks. Currently there are seven available, all but one of them going for less than $ 700 US at this time. Figure another $ 200 for shipping. Figure another $500 for the install. I'm assuming $25/hour and twenty hours billable time for installation. This is a fairly long time, but I'm assuming the mechanic has never done this procedure before, and is taking it very slow and carefull. This gives me a total of around $ 1,400 US, which nowadays is about the cost of replacing a bumper.

 

DEBUNK THIS

I must admit, I'm not particulary soft for toyota and actually rather like GM. Correct me if im wrong, but even if the Prius' battery and MPG are really good, I heard just the sheer amount of pollution realeased to make the special batteries out weighs the positive.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Feb 9 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]387720[/snapback]</div>

I read it. Maybe I shouldn’t have said I am partial to GM because I think u might’ve already labeled me as someone who is against Toyota. I wasn’t sure and I remember hearing about it somewhere and I went to the article and read every bit. But if Toyota was so concerned about the environment, why not do a tiny bit a research? I’m sure there must’ve been a better alternative than something so evidently harmful? I don’t know a lot about batteries but I've heard li-ion or something was ready and could be used in cars. I'm just tired of the obvious misconceptions about American automakers. The quality isn’t that bad, even JD Powers agrees the quality is close if not on par with the Japanese. The top ten brands in quality included 5 American and 5 Japanese.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/amer..._cars/index.htm

Toyota is hailed as the greenest company and a savior of the environment. I think Honda is by far the most worthy of this title. It has the best overall fuel economy, somewhat helped by the lack of a full size truck, had the first hybrid if I'm correct, though it might use the same infamous battery as the prius.
As I understand it, Toyotas trucks are among the worst in mpg especially when compared with GM, though Toyota has some of the best marketing minds in the business. Also, to those saying that buying a Camry or tundra is helping the US just because it’s built in America; remember that mostly just means assembled. A lot of parts come from Japan and also all the R&D among others. To believe that all this money just gets reinvested in the US economy is naive. I don’t have anything in particular against Toyota except for pretending to be what they're not.
And even now I think a well run diesel can out perform any prius in fuel economy. Diesels are actually cleaner than petrol run cars now and emit the least CO2 out of all. If you really wanted to preserve the environment you could’ve bought one a while ago or even the infamous EV1 which was the first ever electric car. And was run completely by electricity. The reason it was killed was not because of the huge American gas hogs but just the fact that demand was very low.
To finish this rant, I will state that Toyota itself has admitted to manipulating billions of dollars from the imbalance of the yen to the dollar and the artificial devolvement of the Japanese currency. All the American car companies, even Daimler Chrysler, suffer from huge legacy costs and an image of poor quality; perhaps deserved before, up even into the 90s. Japan willingly helps is companies while the US does nothing to protect their industry.
Ugh sorry for this long tangent but I must also share a tale of Japanese manipulation with you. Back n time, sometime after Japan recovered from WW2 we sent over numerous amounts of electronics expertise, for at that time we were still the leaders of that industry also. We set up companies and started selling products in Japan. Japan refused to let them sell under the American nameplates and forced them to sell through Japanese companies. The companies subsequently raised the prices of the products in Japan to sell at a much lower price in the US. The American companies couldn’t compete and bankrupted. Jus look at the electronics now and tell me what is left of the US electronics industry. Even today Japan places unfair tariffs on foreign cars in their country to provide a healthy monopoly for their own companies to thrive on. Just a look back. In the end Toyota is just another company as is GM or any other. As such, they are in it to make money and be successful. That's it. Image is just another game you can play to manipulate people. Very, very few are out there just to save the world, and not to just make money. Remember that.

 

You serious??

The Prius has a 100lb battery with some nickel in it. How much nickel do you think is in a normal car? I hate it when people try to do comparisons without knowing or stating facts. Like the H2 is greener than the Prius BS. How much enery does it take to produce a 6000LB truck compared to a 3000lb car?

Also how many GM/Ford models are actually made in the US now? And of those how much fo their content actually gets improted? The car industry is global and most components now gets made all over the world. Diamler Chrysler is now a German company in my mind anyway.

As to reliability, GM still has catching up to do. I agree that Toyota has been stagnent and probably wen down a peg or 2 in the last few years. However they are still ahead of GM or Ford in terms of overall quality by quite a margin. For me quality is 4-5 years down the line with 60-70k hard miles, not just initial fit and finish and small trim pieces. JD Powers is a flawed quality benchmark IMHO.

Agreed Honda is probably the green company, and only cause they don't sell any real trucks or SUVs. And they sell few of them.

Toyota trucks are no different in MPG compared to GM or Ford for the same size, perfromance and capaity truck.

As to the rest of your tangent, maybe go check all your "facts" before spewing stuff out on the internet. Your opinion does not equate to facts, sorry.

All the GM fanboys are getting pretty lame on Toyota boards. Maybe GM as a corporate need to get their act together and do somethign, rather than lame marketing and products for the main stream. That is why they are loosing market share against Toyota. Now with the new Tundra their last stronghold is under attack. When last did you drive a small or mid size GM sedan? Compare that to a Prius, Camry, Corolla. American manufacturer conseded the sedan market to foreign companies to move to the large and high profit margin SUVs and trucks. Now they are crying foul as those markets are under attack. It is time for them to make good products and people will buy them. Corvettes have no problem selling, but they are a niche market. Good products sell, bad ones dissappear in the long run. Simple as that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 9 2007, 08:46 PM) [snapback]387809[/snapback]</div>

Again i thought i read somewhere about Lithium ion which is gunna be used in cars sooner or later amnyways. how much more trouble would that have been than use harmful nickel?
When did i say a H2 is greener than a prius? that thought has never crossed my mind. secondly, I dont have a problem with their trucks, its just that they advertise seeming so for the good of the enviroment yet twofacedly want all the money in the full size market as well. GM trucks have among the best mpg compared to other trucks. Toyota has around the worst. At least Honda has a commited ideal behind their reputation, unless they join in on the full size truck market. It has also admitted it has exploited the weak yen and strong dollar to maximize profits. Also, addressing th tarrifs,Ive heard Japan has hidden fees disguised as crash testing that are built in thousands per car. even importing cars into the US, like the Aveo, GM has to pay a thousand dollars per car to the UAW. Its all true. GM supports the domestic econmy by contributing billions in taxes and its cars' parts are still mostly (83%) american parts. All the money that goes into on a domestic is put into their bottom line in an american based company.
While ford still has some issues, overall GM has come leaps and bounds from a decade or two and i belive are almost level. Buick has consistantly rated above honda, toyota, and acura in quality for a while. If you dont trust JD Power and assosciates, I would like to know what you do trust, perhaps, consumer reports? i dont belive the way they test cars and quality is very good and i dont trust them when it comes to cars.
secondly, I cant say i have driven any GM car, or any car at all. I dont see that as particulary strange as most kids in 8th grade do not drive either. I admit the US auto industry has made some humongous and potentially fatal mistakes in the past, but hom much whould it benifit the world if the big 2.5 suddenly collapesed? The US economy cannot sustain another huge hit an we are already in hot water as it is. Now i'm not gunna preach about a moral duty to purchase domestic, as that would be an affront to this country and its very basis of freedom. The reason GM depended on its large SUVs and trucks is exactly because of the large profit margin. Simply put, GM or ford does not make any (or rather very very little)money from small to midsize cars. subtract any legacy costs, ie retirement pay and health benifits, it simply does not make economic sence. Japanese companies dont have to pay this because the japanese government takes over these costs. The largest reason to make cars were just to prevent the loss of share to competitors. Clearly, the theres efforts were not completely sucessful. Efforts have been underway for a while to restrructure and results are alredy coming to fruition. Witness not only the GM truck and CAR of the year. the North American Car of the year being the Saturn Aura, from GM, and the Chevy Silverado. Upcoming is the Chevy Malibu. Lookit up if you want more. From the commercials ive seen, apparently the ford fusion beat the camry and accord in a head to head comparison. Its up to you to decide that one though. If you want proof of Japanese intervention, here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cons...ronics_industry
find protectionism.
there is no american electronics industry article. Dell is the last largest electronics company that is American.
dont you find it the least suspisious that even though the television was invented in Ohio, United States, there is no vestige of an american television corperation? Its all Sony to Panasonic.
Dig deeper. I dont belive the government lending a hand is bad especially if everyone else is. Its an unfair disadvantage to our home team. Anyways, at least the North American Auto Award ought to hold some power. the fact is, some the products are competitive, but no ones looking. There is a huge gap between perception and actual product. GM now has a 100,000 mile warrenty to back itself up while toyota can charge a premium on higher percived value. Domestic Auto makers are cutting back on fleet sales which is proven to cause deteriorating quality and resale value.
Toyota is a very global company. Sharing platforms and the fact that it is reletively young leads to less clutter and confusion. The camry is sold all over the world under the toyota name, while domestics get stuck in regional ideas. for example, about every car in 3 car portfolio is made araound the world, whereas GM has about 7 brands just in NA. I promice you most of there cars are exclusive the the north american market, and infact if you mention say Buick in China relative to here, youll get images of VERY different cars. All 3 major domestic companies have been under restructuring for a while, as turning around a huge company is not easy, and ill be the first to admit toyota has a structure and streamlined company plan worth envying. GM sells different cars under Holden in Austrailia and if you go to Europe or say the Middle East youll find very little in common between parts and frames. North America has the privelage of having its own unique and more often than not, decontented cars. All the american companies are trying to form global companies but again have the habit of regional development. Im not even sure GM even has one car they sell around the world. The headquarters are still based in michigan, and thats where the money is reinvested. just look up ford-US and ford-EU if you want to see. even the same model like the focus, are completely different.
Going back to quality, again, its a perception problem. count how many old american cars there are as well as japanese. and remember, toyota has been in the truck buisness for a while, and chevy still has the longest lasting trucks. Also, Who is leading is recalls this year? I thought i heard toyota had quite a spill over some sludge or something. I also admit this reputation of Detroit's may be well based off of cars all through even the ninetys, but if no ones gunna notice new improved product, whats the point?I am actually suprised the american industry has survived for so long fighting against such a terrible image of poor quality, poor resale value, cheapness as well as paying the healthcare, family benifits and retirement salery of billions of americans and people around the world. Detroits gunna have to earn its rep back, but some people have to be able to at least give it a chance. Maybe you should do some reasearch as well. Just my two cents.

PS. I try really hard to reasearch a topic and not blindly copy and paste whatever i see so if im wrong just correct me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 9 2007, 09:51 PM) [snapback]387913[/snapback]</div>

I believe the initial myth you posted has been sufficiently debunked.

The rest of the discussion is getting seriously off topic for this thread. I would suggest that we take that discussion to an off topic area on this forum. I can go and quote you a number of figures and stats in regrds to CO2 for diesels vs hybrids, GM and Toyota domestic content, reliability surveys (as that is what it is, reported problems to the relevant body), American Companies in electronics (Dell is far from the largest), etc. SO why don't you clearly specificy the topics of discussion in another thread if you wish to continue it, just start one in Fred's House of pancakes and PM it to me. Please state you case clearly with figures and cite your references for all to see. That will make it much easier to have a grounded discussion instead of jumping around on a zilion topics.

Bottom line is consumers are buying the products that best suite their needs/wants. Unfortunately a number of American companies have lost touch with consumer needs/wants and also adapting quickly to changing needs and the future. I do see some promising signs, but won't hold my breath to see how they turn out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Dec 4 2006, 08:01 PM) [snapback]357778[/snapback]</div>

Yep. As a reminder for others, I posted a refutation of CNW's "study" crap and poked all sorts of holes in it at http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...mp;#entry272611.

I don't have the time or energy to do it again on their revised figures. They were so far off the first time and from the impressions I get this time around, they're still BS.

 

A lady with an SUV parked next to me at the grocery store and asked me some questions about my Prius.

I'll take the easiest myths.

"Where do you plug it in?"

You don't. Proof? You find me anywhere on my car where I can plug it in and I will.

"Wow, it's bigger than I thought." (The compact car, Corolla myth.)

It's the Moebius car. Bigger on the inside than it looks. Seriously. I think it's an optical illusion of photos when there is no point of reference. It's not the size of a VW beetle but maybe the shape gives that impression. She was quite surprised at how much room there was inside, as she watched me load bag after bag of groceries in the back without lowering the rear seats. Then slide the cover over the whole lot and close the hatch. And it still seats five.

Sorry, I have no links or documentation. But you're free to come look at my car and sit inside.

BTW she also asked me how long the batteries will last? I said I don't know. They're warranteed for 10 years. 12? 15? not sure. She never did ask the how much to replace question. I guess it was moot by that point.

And I added how smooth the transmission was. Too bad her SUV was so shiney and new. I'll bet she was kicking herself she didn't look into a Prius before she bought that big honkin' pile of metal. Especially since gas has gone up and up in this past week and we're warned it's going to continue to go up. Let it go up to $3.50+ a gallon again. I'll just laugh.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Feb 10 2007, 06:15 AM) [snapback]387985[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry about the wicked long messages but i dont want to flood the chat and i want to answer all the points someone has made.
propping up a dying company? I'm not sure thats thats the right attitude. First there needs to be a level playing ground or else that is just a mockery of free trade. As for using the the yen's imbalence to the dollar to make extra money,('Exploiting the yen's weakness, Toyota has boosted exports by 17% to the U.S. from its factories in Toyota City, Japan.' )

http://www.businessweek.com/1997/14/b35211.htm
Even in the capitalistic world we live today you have to remember that money is coming from somewhere, possibly at the expence of our own government. Though the japanese government allows a 'free floating yen', they threaten intervention if the yen substantially raises. this is not the first example of asian or even japanese currency manipulation. wiki it up, or look up Japanese Military Yen. from a weak yen and strong dollar, japanese companies can pull even more money out of every sale. I have also heard that the prius was in fact losing toyota's money, and was just a brilliant marketing scheme. I think after a certain threshold and cheap mass production, it eventually could have become/is profitable. GM says it will not try to make any product that is not financially viable and could lose money, which is a very possible thing ina growing but still small market of hybrids. There might not even be enough room yet for both yet another hybrid and be financially sucessful.

Again rememebr things take a while to get the beurocrasy of a company, especially one as big and some might even say bloated one as General Motors. and now when they do come out with a more than decent car, people dont care. is: the Aura, winner of the North American Car of the Year. (over the camry i might add.) Though i understand perception cant change overnight, there may be a very dark future in store for the domestics as well as the US economy if not. the perception of quality just isnt there. again, out of the top 11 quality brands, 5 were american, 5 were japanese. They have what you want, how you want it(with double scoops of quality), but people just arnt looking. Tis a sad day for the americans when the people dont even belive in their own products.

(PS Where should i post this as i think it no longer fits in this thread? -EDIT actually im not even sure it fits in this site as im no longer really talking about the prius, just the car industry as a whole. [I also see the prius as an effective stop gap now to wean america off its fuel obsession. Congrats to Toyota to finally getting a sucsessful hybrid out to market. {though i can still give you ten unfair reasons why} still, credit to where credit is due ]Thanx again for enlightening me about the prius, that was my only quarrel (for the car))

 

Start a thread in the Fred's house of pancakes section if you wish to discuss it with this forum of people. Aslo please cover one topic in athread to make it easier to read through.

Lastly you might want to update your profile as in one of your posts it reads you are in 8th grade and do not own a car, thus you can't own a 2007 Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 10 2007, 09:44 PM) [snapback]388262[/snapback]</div>

sorry i thought i did. ill be sure to, thanx.

(Im sorry it was irresponseble of me to continue i guess. thanx for the help though, the battery thing was really my only quarrel against the car, and otherwise i think the prius is a good car, and could help in getting america off its gas obsession. (I am especially embarrased though, as missing such an obvious and intuitve name as "Fred's house of pancakes".)

Edit- hi me again, i looked and i dont really have a choice. i have to pick either a prius or hybrid or non hybrid owner. It says if you dont own a prius select 'N/A 'in the trim level choice. I thought that way id cause the least misconceptions about me owning a car. So for now i think ill have to leave it. If you could tell me a better way it would be appreciated. sorry for the confusion.

Edit.- hi. guess who. i updated my sig so i hope this kinda of thing wont happen again. (i pretty much just copy and pasted what i said to you.) haha.

 

- With so few hybrids on the road, it's just not worth it.

I'm afraid I'm going to have some trouble sticking closely to the rules for posting in regards to this item. There are no facts in this statement, so it is difficult to find any counter facts. It is a somewhat curious excercise in logic, and logic is the only way I see to respond to it.

Let me see if I can tease out the underlying assumptions in this statement and bring them out where we can look at them.

- With so few hybrids on the road

States that there are few hybrids on the road. Regardless of whether they mean absolute or relative numbers, this statement is correct. They are fairly new in the North American market. Every type of car and truck has small numbers during its first years of production, so this is correct and unremarkable. Given that any new product will have initial flaws, I feel it is actually preferable to start off with modest production runs. If the technology proves of value it should grow in numbers.

- it's just not worth it.

Suggests that hybrids may have a value. Does not specify what that value is. I would speculate that the value is:

* Better milage?

* Lower pollution?

* Other?

Regardless of which of these you prefer the suggestion is that it is something personally or socially worthwhile, but that one individual can only produce in small amounts. I see this as normal, not as an odd problem. There are lots of things that I personally cannot do all by myself. I cannot rebuild the gulf coast singlehandedly, I personally cannot plan out the upcoming Mars mission, and I will openly admit that I had no direct hand in coming up with the new cancer vaccines. I have no problem with this. My contributions to these things are small, but I am one of millions, and collectively our effort is sufficient to the needs of the situation.

Why should my car be any different? I'm doing my share.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 9 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]387762[/snapback]</div>

And lithium isn't harmful to produce?

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=135056

Suggest you do some fact checking, sonny boy. Oh, and explain to me why despite the FACT the vast majority of INCO's Sudbury output, at least until 1992, went to the U.S., the the U.S. isn't cleaning up the moonscape around Sudbury. Or dealing with the cancer clusters. The "solution" of building the Super Stack to shower acid rain all over southern Ontario sure worked well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 9 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]387762[/snapback]</div>

I already covered this in response to the troll "Malorn" in his "smoke and mirrors" postings. Compare a Toyota to a Chevy, which has almost exactly the same EPA fuel economy, then compare which EPA Tier 2 Bin the vehicle belongs to . Depending on EPA Tier 2 Bin rating, most domestics pollute worse than Toyota pickups. That is, the domestics are ranked in a Tier 2 Bin that allows them to pollute MORE.

And I'm no fan of pickups anyway. Quite frankly I hope Toyota stops making them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 9 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]387762[/snapback]</div>

Two words: bull and s***.

Look to the source:

http://www.acea.be/air_quality

Note that the "tighter" emissions still allow a passenger car diesel in the EU to put out almost twice as much PM as a petrol motor. Similar for NOx and let's also compare the CO2

http://www.acea.be/co2_emissions

Diesel passenger car makers are having a "difficult" time figuring out how to meet those emissions. That's why you can't buy a VW tdi car in California or any state with CA emisssions.

Look up the Prius CO2 emissions at

http://www.toyota.co.uk/vs2/pdf/PS2_63_spec.pdf

It's rated at 104 g/km.

In the EU the Yaris can be had with a diesel motor. It's CO2 emissions are 119 g/km

http://www.toyota.co.uk/vs2/pdf/YA3_63_spec.pdf

VW has similar issues with CO2

http://www.vw.co.uk/new_cars/jetta/engines