Project Lithium Nexcell v2.5

Again, we are discussing the Sodium Ion Battery correct? Just to be clear. If you have evidence otherwise, from any customer I'd like to see it. Not the Tennessee backwoods engineer moonshine rants about functionality and workmanship.

 

I'm VERY happy with my Sodium Battery Pack! And Jack has been GREAT!
I highly recommend him and the Sodium battery.....

 

but... this is what the internet is all about man. you cant tell them they cant share their opinion that they gained from reading someone else's words on the internet...

 

From my perspective, Team Jack members appear disinterested in having a technical conversation. Instead of discussing my numerous engineering concerns, they respond with ad hominem attacks. This backwoods Tennessee engineer would love for someone to offer even an attempt at a technical response to any claim I've made to date. I invite constructive dialogue, but at this point I'm not certain that's possible on PriusChat. Anyone who wants to keep treating NexPower's designs as a black box is free to do so. Hope sodium works out, but alas, my engineering intuition tells me otherwise.

What about my words? My analysis? My concerns?

 

So responding originally with a link from the Insight Forums that basically renders whatever product you had going was a failure is now considered an ad hominem attack?Someone make this make sense please? lol I think it's more like letting the chips fall and karma run it's due course for all the slander you did against Nexpower.

 

I just went back and skimmed the thread linked in #25, but all I saw seemed to be that mudder's beta-test battery retrofit is being affected by Samsung SDI lithium cell issues that are also giving fits to Fiat-Chrysler, Ford, Volkswagen, and Audi. Looks like mudder is working to keep the LiBCM firmware up-to-date with mitigations announced by those other affected manufacturers, and meanwhile urging his beta-testers to continue taking the same safety precautions they already agreed to as beta-testers.

Certainly a hurdle, but a beta test is a better time for such a hurdle than production.

 

1: I offer two different lithium conversion Kits for the Honda Insight. I've only sold QTY50 Kits that use the recalled modules, versus QTY250 Kits that use non-recalled modules.
2: QTY20'000'000 cells were recalled by Samsung SDI. The recall impacts Ford, Audio, Chrysler, Volkswagen... not just little old me.
3: None of my Honda Insight products are 'failures'. This recall is a bump in the road.
4: As you can see in my insightcentral thread, I'm VERY public about the recall. Unlike some other players in the aftermarket industry, I make no attempt to hide dangerous issues from my customers.
5: Please continue Honda-specific discussion on the proper forum: insightcentral.net

Replacing one logical fallacy with another isn't the slam dunk you think it is. Supposing my product fails due to external factors (i.e. Samsung SDI, the battery supplier), how does that detract from the numerous valid engineering concerns I have with NexPower's products as designed?

As I mentioned previously, I'm open to discussing the technical merits of the numerous claims I've made against NexPower's products. Pick any claim from my list and we can discuss the merits.

Karma plays no part in engineering analysis. While you may personally wish for my failure, that doesn't change the fact that NexPower has released products with numerous safety issues. And if you don't agree with that statement, I welcome your counterpoints to my arguments.

 

Having worked with Jack for nearly five years, I've learned that he isn’t just an individual, he represents a collective effort within the Prius community. His work, including Dr. Prius App and helping people on here with battery solutions for getting close to a decade is built on an effort to support the needs of the community.

Where on Priuschat have you expressed that same regard when it comes to benefiting the community? Jack's extensive network with colleagues both nationally and internationally, brings together scientists, manufacturing experts, technical designers, lawyers, safety certifiers, and financial advisors.

When I first reached out to you, I had hoped you could be part of that network, as I believed both of you could benefit from each other’s expertise. As you once said, ‘Sounds like Jack has the same passion for this as I do.’

However, when Jack finally contacted you, the conversation ended before it could even begin. He described your response as rude and hostile, to the point where he decided he wanted nothing to do with you. I wasn’t present for that exchange, so I can’t speak to the details, but based on the tone/purpose of the videos you immediately released about his work, your intention is the exact opposite of community support and collaboration.

Specifically, you've consistently conflated the significant safety requirements of your high-density lithium-ion cells with those of his low-density, less dangerous cells in ways that are both misleading and unfair. If your goal is to have an honest discussion about battery safety and technology, it should be based on facts, not misrepresentation.

 

I don't wish for anyone's failure in this industry, unless they are ACTUALLY not standing behind their failures...erm.."bumps in the road" as you call them. Jack has stood by everything and honored any issues. This is why it's called R&D. You or Jack winning, is a win for the Prius community as a whole, but sad to say your persona already lost the battle. At least Jack did the honorable thing in correcting his mistakes and admitting to them. Now he has a great product, that...no one can say so far has been bad at all. (Despite all the critics' moonshine malarky analysis').

 

And that's almost impossible with Jack, he's the most chill even mannered guy around with the patience of a Saint. I can't imagine how that conversation went..

 

True that... I've had problems with my behavior online, even got the same 30 day ban on PriusChat as Mudder got on here. That was a long time ago. I learned my lesson... But in all my years with Jack, he was supportive and kept working with me even though I've clearly been a real jerk sometimes. But I've learned from those mistakes and have ever since done my best to do better and respect the community more. Hope Mudder finds it in himself to do the same.

 

Okay, while we're still not discussing the technical merits of the claims I've made...
...for the first time on PriusChat I feel like we're actually having a constructive conversation. With any luck, we can continue a fruitful conversation.

Because I work best with facts, I first want to add additional context to the timeline you mentioned:

2023OCT26: A NexPower associate contacted me regarding using NexPower's LFP product with my existing Honda Insight BMS (and also asked if I was interested in using their LFP cells in my existing product). Over the next few days we had a back-and-forth dialogue regarding NexPower's existing BMS solution, including a conversation on how to prototype my existing product into a Prius. During this time I asked for more information on NexPower's existing BMS issues, and offered to review the schematic for possible improvements. NexPower was reluctant to provide said design files. As a compromise, I asked NexPower to send QTY1 blade for analysis. My thought here was that I could easily decipher the schematic by looking at the PCB. That way I wouldn't have access to the actual design files... only the end product that any customer could purchase.

2023OCT28: After learning more about the existing NexPower design's lack of SCADA BMS, I informed NexPower associate "If my assumption that y'all aren't using a BMS is true, I'm amazed y'all are selling thousands of LFP modules without any safety logic." I once again asked for schematics so I could provide guidance on shortcomings in the existing design. During this exchange, I was told that Jack didn't want to add a BMS to "keep things simple". My response was "...if Jack wants to forego adding a <BMS> to 'keep it simple', I'm not sure where my product comes into play with your system." At this point I clearly offered "Full disclosure: I plan to enter this space with my own LiBCM solution at some point."

2023OCT30: NexPower associate informed me: "As for safety logic, Jack started this approach of using Toyota's existing BMS 8 years ago and there's likely not a test he hasn't tried ... Thus far the existing Prius BMS has been sufficient for everything except overcharging..." This really confused me, because the primary purpose of a BMS is to prevent overcharging. The associate continued "The V2 circuit <Jack> designed he says is "revolutionary" and actually generates heat by way of using extra voltage to balance the cells. It's weird when you put the new circuits into well charged modules and the covers where the circuit board is heats up. We get people emailing about this because they get worried. But V2 refines the balance and temperature so well I saw a 4 mpg improvement on the freeway." I was confused why NexPower needed my BMS help if their V2 'BMS' circuitry was "revolutionary". NexPower associate answered that their existing design didn't allow grid charging, and asked whether my design could achieve that (it could). NexPower associate stated "if it worked we could sell your LBCM, which would allow us to do grid charging for Gen1 Hondas. And from that point, we might be able to develop an LBCM for other Hondas and then Toyotas and help you with selling them."

2023OCT31: I once again asked NexPower associate "Does the existing Prius BMS actually connect to each LFP cell? Or does it only connect every N cells in series? ... My concern here is that I don't think Jack's balancing circuit is properly implemented, as there doesn't appear to be any serial bus that would allow all the V2 modules to communicate with each other. I'm not trying to discredit Jack's work, but I'd really like to see a schematic so I can understand if there really is anything revolutionary about it. My guess is no, with respect."

I also responded to NexPower's high failure rate: "One or two failing packs per week is really high. Does Jack keep data regarding how each cell fails? I'd be interested to see what's causing such a high failure rate. For reference, in the past 28 months all LiBCMs out in the field combined have only detected a single failing NMC lithium cell. Assuming your installed cell count is around 30x higher than mine (QTY4000 packs versus QTY140), then if your failure rate was as low as mine, you would only see around one cell failure per month." I then offered to test NexPower's cell with my abusive cell gauntlet.

...

Over the next few weeks we had similar back and forth. During this time, I received neither schematics nor a test blade. To gain the missing technical information I needed to properly advise NexPower, I acquired a V2 pack on my own from a 3rd party.

Note that I was not charging anything for my time. In fact, I never charged NexPower even $1 for my consulting/advice.

...

2023DEC22: NexPower associate states:

2023DEC22: I replied:

2023DEC22: NexPower associate states:

2023DEC22: Jack and I texted briefly, and then had our first (and only) phone call, after which NexPower associate wrote:

2023DEC22: I replied:

2023DEC22: NexPower associate responded:

2023DEC25: I responded:

2023DEC27: I released this youtube video highlighting safety/design concerns I had with the V2.0 NexPower cell. This video was recorded to raise awareness regarding safety issues I observed with the existing NexPower design. After posting this video, I decided I had said my peace and didn't think about NexPower until a customer experienced a thermal event a few months later.

During this time I was made aware of several private statements Jack made to various people in the small aftermarket battery community. I disregarded these comments initially, but as more and more people mentioned them to me (in private) I did eventually send Jack a warning that "I will not hesitate to sue you if you continue to disparage my professional reputation in private." Sadly, Jack still hasn't stopped doing the same to anyone who will listen in private... but at this point I assume he's judgment proof; at most I'd get a warehouse full of sodium cells I'd then have to dispose of. Pass.

2024MAR12: @sworzeh released her "My Project Lithium Battery Caught Fire Yesterday" reddit and priuschat posts:

My Project Lithium Battery Caught Fire | PriusChat

Upon reading @sworzeh's posts, I posted on both of the above threads, offering my engineering insights into why NexPower's lacking safety elements could easily lead to at thermal event. The PriusChat community immediately vilified me... I don't see any reason to regurgitate that conversation here, as those of us still reading this are quite familiar.

During this time, I learned that since I had last spoken with NexPower, Jack's team had designed an enigmatic 'Signal Soother' product, which claimed to magically solve the V2 issues. Being a curious engineer, I wanted to see how the Signal Soother worked, but alas Jack wasn't interest in explaining what it actually did.

2024JUN11: I procured a Signal Soother from a 3rd party and was amazed to find that it intentionally bypassed what little safety elements existed when using LFP NexPower packs with the Prius. To raise an alarm to the community, over the next few days I released the following videos on why NexPower's products were dangerous:

During this time, the PriusChat community continued to vilify me for highlighting the numerous design/safety issues I had observed while analyzing NexPower's products. The community was adamant that NexPower's upcoming V3 design was going to resolve all these issues... so naturally my engineering curiosity lead me to want to verify those claims.

2024JUL30: I released the following video showing the numerous claims I had with a V3 prototype I procured from a 3rd party:

During this time, the PriusChat community continued attacking anything but the facts I uncovered and posted about in the following videos:

...

So there's more background information on my relationship with NexPower starting from day 1. Next I will discuss the points @PriusCamper and @V Sport Wagon raised.

 

In hopes that we can continue a fruitful conversion:

Help me make sense of the cognitive dissonance in your previous statement:

Just a few sentences later you continue to distance yourself from your latest statement:

So I'm glad to hear you don't wish for failure...
...so help me understand why you support "letting the chips fall and karma run its due course".

I (once again) agree that Jack is doing everything within his power to make his customers whole. I have never once stated anything to the contrary. I commend Jack's efforts to right his customers' wrongs with prior product shortcomings. I will also propose that I am standing behind my product, too. Overall, I don't think anyone is contesting both of our commitments to our own customers. I think we're on the same page here, but let me know if you disagree that I'm treating my customers well, too.

We probably have different definitions of 'winning'. Here's mine:
Anyone who sells a safe product that improves the Prius experience is a "win for the Prius community as a whole". My initial interest in helping NexPower was to achieve my definition of 'winning'. Had our partnership worked out, I have no doubt NexPower would be 'winning' by my definition.

Alas, our relationship didn't work out, and so today most of the design/safety issues I identified with the V2 design remain present in the latest V3 design. Many Team Jack members appear to think any product NexPower ships - safe or not - is a "win for the Prius community". I fundamentally disagree that this latter definition is a "win for the Prius community", who suffers each time they're asked to get out their credit card for the latest and greatest (and/or another OEM NiMH pack).

I disagree with both assertions.
First, the V3 design fails to address the concerns I previously raised with the V2 design, and also has several new safety concerns that were not present on V2.
Second, Jack routinely fails to 'admit' when shortcomings exist in his products. While he did eventually concede that the V2.x & V1.x LFP NexPower products were insufficiently designed, to this day Jack continues to deny that my numerous safety/design claims regarding those products are true. You should see the cease and desist his legal team sent me, which states "<Jack> has informed us that you <sic> been frequently spreading malicious, false information about NexPower's products".

Further, in a now deleted video, Jack made numerous attempts to discredit actual shortcomings I identified in his products. Rather than address my concerns head on, Jack repeatedly disparaged my safety concerns and other feedback with a web of deceit that attempts to cast his inadequately designed products in a positive light.

For example, in that video Jack attempts to discredit my claim that "the V2.x & V3.x BMS circuits are functionally identical." To discredit my claim, Jack simply holds up a V2.x PCB next to a V3.x PCB, which appears more complex to a layperson. He offers no further explanation. However, the only reason the V3.x PCB appears 'improved' is that it contains the same circuit QTY35 times, whereas the V2.x PCB only contained the same circuit QTY5 times. This is a deceitful response, as it intentionally attempts to discredit my engineering analysis of the actual circuit. There are numerous similar instances where Jack attempts to pull the wool over unknowing customers' eyes.

My primary feedback to your statement is that Jack has a pattern of deceptive and deceitful comments going back at least a year. He is intentionally vague about how exactly his products are 'safe'. To whit, his numerous claims regarding how the Signal Soother worked, until I let out all the hot air by analyzing the actual (horribly unsafe) circuitry. And while he admits the Signal Soother was a bad idea in hindsight, he didn't do so until we as a community demanded it.

No, I do not agree that Jack is "honorable in correcting his mistakes and admitting to them." He has admitted to mistakes, yes, but only when backed into a corner with the facts I uncovered last year. And still to this day he will not publicly refute my V3 safety/design concerns, because he either can't technically defend his design, or else he chooses not to. Either way, he does this community a disservice by not addressing my concerns. In my opinion, I am doing this community's paying customers a service by sharing my safety concerns publicly. A reminder that I initially attempted to do so privately with Jack, but his pride prevented him from taking my advice... even if my discussion was terse, I gave Jack all the information he needed to make his product safe... and he didn't. To this day, NexPower's V3 design still lacks safety elements I outlined to him in private over a year ago. I offered him this advice for free, and even shared with him my open source BMS design which would give his product all those safety features his products needed... and what did he do with that information? Nothing, because he wanted to "keep things simple" (i.e. 'cheap').

So no, I disagree that Jack has corrected his mistakes or admitted to them.

I have laid out numerous shortcomings with the V3 design (see videos above). While my videos analyzed the V3 prototype, I subsequently verified that most design issues persist into the production V3 product. I am glad at least to see that a fuse exists on the production version (versus the 'old' V3 prototype I reviewed that was manufactured 2024MAY).

 

I suspect Jack misinterpreted my genuine alarm upon discovering precisely how dangerous his LFP products were. They posed an immediate safety danger to his customers. And I told him exactly that, with increasing force because he made several attempts to assure me his design was safe, when it absolutely was not. I suspect that once Jack realized he wasn't going to be able to charm me into accepting feigned safety, Jack simply decided that I wasn't going to fall into line, at which point his demeanor changed and we quickly parted ways.

I already posted the followup I had with his NexPower representative immediately following that call, but I want to repost this small portion again to link it all together:

Given the above, that means Jack got off the call, contacted his NexPower representative, told him he knew I was correct, but that he couldn't work with me... and then, knowing the correct technical solution that would make his product safe... Jack still chose to do nothing. Over a year ago. Can you see my frustration each time I reviewed his latest product revision, finding that none of my proposed safety improvements were implemented. Still. Still! Each and every time, putting his customers' lives at risk. And then he had the gall to threaten legal action. Are you kidding me?

 

And yet I was a jerk to Jack one time, and he wrote me off entirely? IMO, this reveals something obvious: Jack didn't choose to not work with me because I was a jerk while jumping up and down telling him someone was going to get hurt using his products... but rather he cut off contact because he knew he couldn't paper over my concerns with falsehoods.

My persona in this community is driven by the responses I've received from it. Go look at my QTY7296 posts over on insightcentral.net and see how I behave in an environment that doesn't vilify messengers who raise verifiable safety concerns. For a recent example, take a look at this post, wherein community member @AfterEffect first brought up the Samsung SDI recall @V Sport Wagon is so excited to see bring me my due karma.

How did I respond to that post?
Did I tear @AfterEffect down and discredit his claim? No.
Did I sic a bunch of sycophants on @AfterEffect to attack his character? No.
Did I send @AfterEffect a cease and desist? No. Good God no.
I did none of these things, but even if I had, insightcentral's moderators would have immediately mediated (something this forum is sorely lacking).

Instead of steamrolling @AfterEffect into silence, I immediately responded "Well that's no fun." And then I spent the next few weeks publicly disclosing my findings based on the scant information Samsung makes public. I then publicly analyzed the data, came to some conclusions, and am now writing a firmware update whose goal is to identify the failure mode before it becomes problematic. All out in public, for all the world to see, including @V Sport Wagon, because that's what you do when you aren't attempting to pull the wool over your customers and community.

I commend @AfterEffect for alerting me to this valid safety issue.

And that's why I'm so disappointed that Jack continues to disparage my professional reputation in private...
...and sic his sycophants on me, the backwoods Tennessee engineer, raising safety concerns that he refuses to address...
...and then has the gall to engage the legal system to silence my irrefutable (or at least thus far uncontested) safety concerns...
...and even threatens legal action against his own customers when they attempt to help raise safety concerns.

Those are the reasons why I've once again spent the past several hours responding to this community's statements, knowing that they will likely fall on deaf ears. I want this community to discuss the merits, not attack each passing messenger bearing bad news.

 

"It's not what you do, but HOW you do it"...spending more time trying to destroy someone's character and doing damage control on your own musings when someone calls you out for malarky, rather than actual R&D shows the community your character flaws. "My persona is based on the responses given to it" well if that isn't an admission of guilt to having some kind of character flaw and alter evil intentioned shadow personality then I don't know what is. Even sounds like AI wrote that statement for you because even IT knows who you are.

Damage control and character assassination (on anyone who replies) reflects more on you than anyone else bud. Everyone that reads this knows you are mad there's a better product that made it to market successfully, faster than anything you had in mind. The natural order in this case with a mentally unstable bloke (yes a couple credentialed psychiatrists who own Prius have read through this case) have determined based on speech,response pattern, gaslit and mirroring "flipped script" ramblings...the analysis is that you could likely come back with a cluster B or worse personality type disorder.

For your own sake, this instability should be addressed for the safety of yourself, your family and others. It's not an ad-hominem (though you will say it is), just general concern from the community that you are unable to process loss and disappointment in your professional life which could lead to self harm or destruction.

*Been dealing with Jack personally and professionally for 3 years or more now and have seen the process and product in person and tested all versions of Lithium and Sodium in real time, so I know this is a jealous smear campaign. The public at large also knows this when they read these rediculous threads. Otherwise, I have no dog in the fight, so trying to attack me is like swinging frail arms at a ghost. Have fun with that.