Exploring the Possibility of Lithium-Titanate (LTO) Batteries for Toyota Prius: Lessons Learned

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by jacktheripper, Dec 19, 2024 at 2:58 PM.

  1. jacktheripper

    jacktheripper Active Member

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    Over the years, many people have asked me about the feasibility of using lithium-titanate (LTO) batteries as a hybrid power source for the Toyota Prius. After much research, experimentation, and real-world testing, I want to share my findings here. Hopefully, this can save DIYers some time, effort, and money.

    As of 2024, LTO batteries are still among the strongest lithium chemistry variants available. They boast an impressive cycle life of over 10,000+ cycles and are designed to handle high charge and discharge currents—qualities that make them appealing on paper. However, there are some significant drawbacks you should know about before diving in:

    1. Cost
      LTO batteries are very expensive. If regular lithium batteries weren't pricey enough, adding titanium to the mix drives costs even higher. In 2023, I tried negotiating with some of the last remaining LTO manufacturers in China, but even bulk orders didn’t bring prices down to a reasonable level.

    2. Weight
      LTO packs are heavy. This is because LTO cells operate at a lower voltage range (1.8V–2.8V per cell), meaning you need more cells to power a hybrid system like the Prius. This added weight can impact the overall performance and efficiency of the vehicle.

    3. Charging and Discharging Characteristics
      LTO batteries have a very sharp charge/discharge curve. This means they can suddenly run out of power or reach full charge without much warning—a trait that doesn’t pair well with the Prius hybrid system. If you’ve followed my journey with the failed Project Lithium, you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about.
    upload_2024-12-19_10-55-31.png

    Back in 2019, when we were just starting to explore batteries and had little knowledge about them, we attempted to assemble an LTO pack. We used a total of 98 Toshiba 3Ah LTO cells, thinking their long cycle life would make up for the low capacity. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that this was not the case.

    The pack lasted only about an hour. The sharp charging curve, combined with the low capacity, didn’t give the Gen 2 Prius enough time to properly stop charging. As a result, most of the cells puffed up, rendering them unusable. After spending nearly $2,500 on materials, we had no choice but to scrap the project.

    Toshiba 3Ah LTO assembled and installed to a Gen2 Prius:
    upload_2024-12-19_11-4-36.png


    Fast forward to late 2022, we decided to revisit LTO technology while exploring alternatives to LiFePO4 chemistry. This time, we assembled three new LTO packs using two different LTO cells from Sheng Quan. Here are the models we used:
    • QT-32145H-6Ah
    • QT-32145H-10Ah
    10Ah LTO in a 7S configuration prior to assembly:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-23-14.png

    10Ah LTO in a 7S configuration with wire harness installed, prior to assembly:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-23-27.png

    10Ah LTO assembled and installed in a Gen3 Prius:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-24-20.png

    10Ah LTO assembled and installed in a Gen3 Prius:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-24-37.png

    10Ah with active balance board installed:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-25-17.png

    6Ah LTO assembled:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-24-1.png

    6Ah LTO assembled with a active balance board and installed in a Gen2 Prius:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-24-54.png

    Gen2 Prius with 6Ah LTO:
    upload_2024-12-19_10-30-49.png

    We initially ran all the LTO packs without a balance board. After a few months, we noticed the block voltages began to drift apart. To address this, we prototyped a custom active balance board designed to dissipate extra power base on neighboring cell's voltage. This immediately resolved the block voltage drift issue. We also design and implement a passive balance board at exactly 2.7v with the same result.

    • Gen2 Prius:
      The Gen2 Prius has been running on the LTO pack since then. As of today (12/19/2024), there have been no reported issues. However, drivers (one in Arizona and another in Brea, CA) have not observed any noticeable benefits, such as improved MPG. In some cases, the vehicle exhibits sluggish behavior during slow-speed cruising.

    • Gen3 Prius:
      The Gen3 Prius, equipped with a larger 10Ah LTO pack, faced challenges despite the higher capacity. The sharp discharge curve occasionally triggered an error code, particularly in slow-moving traffic. We observed a similar issue with our LiFePO4 variant during extremely cold mornings. Installing a "soother" device to smooth out the charge/discharge curve improved the situation. However, the Uber driver using this vehicle reported no tangible benefits from the LTO upgrade. Additionally, the taller size of the 10Ah LTO pack made the trunk space unusable, which was a significant drawback as it limited luggage storage for passengers. As a result, the driver upgraded to the V3 sodium-ion battery on July 11, 2024 and never want to go back to LTO.

    Conclusion:

    While the long cycle life of LTO batteries is a clear advantage, the sharp charge/discharge curve poses a major issue, often triggering error codes in specific situations (e.g., extreme cold and low state of charge). This makes LTO an impractical choice for a consumer-ready solution.

    Additionally, the high price of LTO cells further reduces their viability for large-scale or cost-sensitive projects. These challenges are among the reasons NexPower has moved away from LiFePO4 chemistry in favor of more suitable alternatives - Sodium-ion chemistry.

    I hope this information helps anyone considering LTO batteries for their project.


    Jack C.
    Dr. Prius App
     

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    #1 jacktheripper, Dec 19, 2024 at 2:58 PM
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2024 at 3:08 PM
  2. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Thanks for the writeup Jack. I'm looking forward to delivery of my order in a couple of days. I wanted to go for a full \72 volt set so I could compare with a bank from the prime. But I have other things I want to use the modules with too. Much like what I hope to be able to order in salt next. ;)
     
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  3. jacktheripper

    jacktheripper Active Member

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    yep, I believe salt battery with affordable price tag and great durability is the way to go, many expensive lesson learnt to get us this far !!!

     
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  4. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Lto is one of the least efficent type of lithium batteries but have the longest lifespan with proper bms. They have a very narrow range band of charge you can use, but they’re excellent for supplying short burst of massive amperage power like a capacitor for car stereo. To rely on the battery to supply long peak duration, this chemistry won’t be up for the task.
     
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  5. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    And I thought I spent a lot on my old hybrid so far with multiple packs and grid charging equipment.
    I'm only trying to keep up with the nexcell projects as they mature while learning about how the stuff I have works too.
    DrPrius has helped me so much it's almost beyond words. Getting so many of the battery systems pids working across the supported models ( and within a year of the Prime release ), made it a perfect fit for me to get as near to new ( extended beyond the cars gauges ) data points from the car, I would otherwise have never seen.
     
  6. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    The Sodium battery is great! We've had a few days here in the low 40's and I didn't
    lose any mpg. I think I actually got more. 49-52 mpg. I'm VERY happy with it!
     
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  7. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Well, I did get this LifePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate battery for my lawn mower.
    It's 4 x 3.5 x 2.75 inches and doesn't weigh anything. I would say it's just the plastic
    case, but it did charge to and is holding at 13.3 volts.
     

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  8. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    that size will fit in my Kawasaki EX500, Suzuki Bandit GSF600S and Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat. :)
    And might last longer than the tiny lead acid batteries I'm keeping inside on float charging over the winters.
     
  9. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    I only bought this one because I figured it would keep the charge longer for the
    electric start mower for my friend. She can't pull the cord to start her mower hard
    enough to start it.
    But I'm sorry I got it because amazon took about 10 days to get it here. I bought a regular
    battery for the specific mower for 1/2 the price and they delivered it in 3 days.
    I'll probably send it back because I have no use for it.

    But I might wire it in to one of my UPS's so when the power goes out it will hold the charge longer....
     
    #9 ASRDogman, Dec 22, 2024 at 8:35 AM
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2024 at 5:41 PM
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  10. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    no worries - I've also broken apart and re soldered a couple of extra Ni MH stick pairs from my 06 civic hybrid and fit them in the bikes. I'm not that great at soldering and my home made bus bars were crafted from way to heavy #8 solid copper - soldered to the steel cell connectors. I tried to wrap the packs tight enough, but the vibration while installed eventually broke a connection, usually the longest bus bar. But it was a fun and learning experience.
    If knowing how long these tiny lead acid batteries typically last in motorcycles if left in the cold unused in northern winters, looking for alternatives methods to start and run my bikes has it's own benefits.
     
  11. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    Thank you so much for sharing such a valuable experience. I admit that I once had the idea of using LTO to transform my high-voltage battery, but now it seems that it is an unrealistic idea. I very much agree that the characteristic curve of LTO is too steep and is not suitable for Prius's strategy of detecting battery power, so it is not suitable for modifying its high-voltage battery. Fortunately, because of your reminder, I stopped the stupid attempt in time. I also wish your career will grow steadily.
    upload_2024-12-24_19-19-47.png
     
  12. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Now for the $64,000 question, does the pack have a bms?