... dearest Luigi, marking his milestone in Obamacare history ~

Yet you continue to try reframe the story as a rich dude killing a poor one when either being a saint or devil before that day has no bearing.

 

We went to Sam too for our 2020 RAV4HV

 

Toyota Sam is great! The dealership only officially accepts deposits in person. I was not going to drive 3+ hours to use a credit card to put down a deposit.Sam stretched the system a bit and I finally got my car.As usual, hie feature demonstration during my first drive was great! He says that is his favorite part of the sale. My sons & I combined have bought from Sam & Miller Toyota for 20 years.
2005 Prius, 2008 Corolla LE (not Sam), 2010 Corolla,LE 2017 Prius Two, 2025 Camry XLE FWD. I actually took a bath trading in the 2008 Corolla when I got the Camry, I still have my 2000 Tundra pickup truck though.

 

I was trying to guess the OP's reasonings for the comparison to a rattlesnake bite. I don't know what the murder's motive was nor condone murder, regardless of the justification.

Murder is evil. But so is greed.

The difference is that murder is easier to prove and few ever do it. Greed is harder to prove and something we all have probably done at some point.

 

Bring a better plan than the ACA, “Obamacare” and it will be passed into law. I am sorry to hear the stories of poor health care here. I have my own, not as serious but Stanford Hospital was a disaster. The gave me wrong meds and wrong food for my recovery, a big spring was poking me in the back right after major back surgery , the nurses were all chattering with each other down the hall while people needed help. My room partner was an older man who had complex heart surgery. He had to tell them these meds are not for me, and also was brought food not ordered by the doctor. These bright overhead lights were on all night in our eyes, no one came when we pushed our buttons for help. When I left, I sat on the side of the bed after discharge for a half hour for my wheel chair ride to where my wife was waiting with the car. Finally I stood up and walked out, they said where are you going, I said home. The guy with the wheel chair was down the hall chatting on his cell phone. Nothing though as serious a those other stories here. Just regular major back surgery.
One thing is, it is the particular people you have the misfortune of interacting with. This shooter, an individual. I don’t look to make a story out of it. Why are we making up all these whodunnit stories. Just read it and know about it.

 

So cashing in on an IPO is.....what??
Evil?
Getting an MBA and working 12-hour days for 20 years so that your children can live a better life than YOU live is.....what?
Greed?
Evil?

Tread carefully!!!

One of the reasons that I credit FDR for saving our nation TWICE lies in the fact that he saw around the corner when it came to Communism. People do not realize it, but there was a great deal of antipathy towards capitalism in the US in the 1930s leading to a near-worship of people like Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow, John Dillinger and Lester Gills (Baby-Faced Nelson.)
Of course.....not much is mentioned of the lives that were destroyed by these 'heroes' and some apologists suggest even today that their 'take' in human lives (20? more?) may have been inflated 'a bit.'
I will leave THAT for the 'fact checkers.'

For ME?
Murdering ONE PERSON is not......'good.'


Like I said.....tread carefully.
Maybe 'greed' encompasses getting something (health care) for 'nothing'.......

 

Any sort of investment isn't greed in and of itself. Greed is when money and what it can buy becomes more important to you than other more important things and often gets in the way of those other more important things.

This is a very highly debatable topic. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I will say this. I've known plenty of people who worked 12 hour days for many years and ended up with terrible marital problems, even divorce, with the wife/ex-wife saying her husband never spent enough time with her and the children also complaining that Dad was never there for them when they needed him. Next thing you know the kids are all messed up emotionally and some even commit suicide.

And on that same note what is "living better than you?" After your family has food, water, a roof over their heads and clothing, what else does a family need to be happy? Economic success can help create a happy family, but it is by no means the only metric to having a happy family.

There's no perfect family recipe that will apply to every family and every family is different. You're right in that a person shouldn't be judged for working hard to make a better life for his or her children. And there a people that can pull off working 10, 12 or 14 hour days 6 or 7 days a week and still have enough energy to help, educate, play (aka, be a Dad or Mom) with their children. But there are those who just aren't physically and emotionally strong enough to work that hard and be an effective parent at the same time.

I once read a report of a country that the economy suddenly slowed down and many experts noted that children actually started doing much better emotionally. Their studies concluded that it was because parents were forced to work fewer hours and therefore were spending more time with their kids.

Also, if you study our human history, you'd see that the natural family life for many millenniums consisted in children spending nearly all day with their parents. A typical family in pretty much any society before the industrial revolution would wake up have breakfast together. The children, sometimes only the boys, may or may not have gone to school for a few hours (depending on the culture), but after that or just after breakfast the boys would join their father in doing what their father did and the girls would do what their mother did. The great, great majority of working parents worked within walking distance of their homes. Families usually ate every meal together. And while there would be days where there was up to 12 hours or so of work, in most societies there were also lots of periods where secular work died down considerably, such as during winter months, allowing lots of time for playing with and educating their children. And in the evenings it was common for parents to spend time playing, educating, and telling their kids stories.

While I'm not saying that we need to abandon our modern societies for the dark ages, I think it's important to remember that it is natural for parents to be the ones who teach their kids everything they know. Sending kids to school and to after school activities can work, but you could consider it unnatural in an emotional sense. It is because of this that children are now much more prone to look up to their peers more than their parents and get their emotional needs from their peers much more than from their parents.

Yes, asking for anything, even basic necessities like food and shelter, to be free is technically greed.

But what about asking for a reasonable price? If the rich artificially inflated the price of food or housing to the point that a large percentage of full-time workers couldn't afford them, would it be "greed" on part of those workers to expect food or housing for all their hard work?

Basically, if food or housing became harder to obtain than in the dark ages, then we'd be going backwards, not progressing as a society.

Modern healthcare is a bit more difficult to put a number on. It is rather new in human history, a type of technology. As a result person may or may not consider it a basic necessity like food and shelter. If a person only works enough to buy just essentials like food and shelter, but also wants an iPhone, that person needs to work more, not ask for handouts. But with healthcare, do we want that to be within the reach of any full time employee like food and shelter should be, or do we want this to be way more expensive so the person has to work way more than they would have back in the dark ages?

 

Absolutely Concur!
Just remember,
Shooting somebody in the back is a specific, evil act.

Working hard so that your children can thrive used to NOT be so 'debatable.'
My own daughter was the first person in my family to obtain a college degree - and she gave up a gov'mint job for the privilege of teaching children in a Christian academy for less than a third of my blue-collar hourly wage.

Is she living a 'better' life than me?
I'd say so, and my grandchildren will probably ALL all have the opportunity to go to college IF THEY WANT TO without burdening themselves with 6-figures in debt.
Or NOT if they want to 'go into the trades' or in the military.....or (as my sweet natured oldest one might do) be a starving artist or go into the Peace Corps.
That's on THEM.
As for ME?
I was a D-minus high school student that leveraged a few lucky breaks into a middling military career, followed by two jobs in electronics.
People sometimes make their own 'luck' and they also conflate INSURANCE with HEALTH CARE.
I have what President Obama used to call a 'Cadillac Healthcare plan' (BCBS) - which is an interesting description if you consider that many people in this forum deride that GM product as being too expensive and not very reliable.
I pay something like $500 a month for the privilege of having a $2000 deducible AND the usual co-pays for treatment and GENERIC drugs....AND I also have Tricare - which pays for itself as a supplemental if you have a CFO that is assiduous at chasing paper.
I have no chronic healthcare problems except for the usual wear and tear issues.
I also cash-flow most of my medical diagnostics (PSA, Blood panels, wound treatment, etc.) I try (feebly) to maintain military physical fitness norms and a healthy lifestyle....etc...etc.

.....so I count myself as being lucky.
AND Successful by MY standards!
MY mileage.
AGAIN - yours might vary.

 

Government run healthcare has been a disaster in other countries. just look to Canada. Why would the US government be any more honest? They just minimize costs while misleading people much like the current private healthcare system, only with more restrictions.

 

You will get no argument from me on that point.
I was a recipient of 'socialized medicine' in the military.

The thing that makes my brain itch is that the supposed 'smart people' in this debate try to draw a straight line from money expended to outcome as measured in '$tatistical' lifespan as compared with other nations with other systems.

 

Actually, likely starting the 1920's or 30's there has been a major profit centered inter-related system involving agriculture (seed, chemicals, farming), food, drug manufacturers, medical, & insurance. Many times it is geared to keep people unhealthy without killing them outright to maximize profits. These industries also fund & control scientific safety studies and the government regulators supposed to regulate them. Of course, they support & control many of the lawmakers too. When tobacco became effectively banned, those companies bought up foor manufacturers & use their experience to make their products addictive.

 

My brush with socialized - Government run Healthcare while briefly stationed in England- would amplify your point.
Something certainly not desirable for our country.

 

I was involved only early on in Canada when control started at the provincial (state) level. It was not too bad at that time but has gone downhill rapidly over the ensuing years.At that time we were able to get a doctor that accepted the government 80% of cost as the whole payment instead of charging patients the remaining 20% permitted. They now have long wait times, even for critical services. They now also contain costs by permitting assisted suicide & euthanasia.

 

Any research on this?
Has Medicare or the VA been a disaster in the US?

Is that worse than denying coverage until the person dies?

 

I also did four patrols out of Scotland back in the day - and those brief years led me to believe that our system of health care - warts and all - is much better for the individual, if not the collective.

AGAIN,
My mileage.

"research" on what exactly?
As far as the VA and Medicare, are they actually socialized medicine or is it government subsidized 'coverage?'

I can only speak for one of them, but for me neither one is really socialized medicine because it seems to me that BOTH will cover some things and not cover other things.
I guess in either case you cannot accuse dot.hhs.dot.gov or dot.va.dot.gov of being...."greedy" except that they take "contributions" from the public and distribute them inefficiently, at best.

Clearly a question posed by someone who has never been denied 'coverage' or treatment by the VA.....or Medicare/Medicaid.
At least in the US they do not ration healthcare, and until four years ago I also would have said that our government would not force people to take a less than one-year-old vaccine "for the good of the people...."

Besides?
WHO EXACTLY is denied medical coverage in a post-Obamacare US???
Was the lie about 'keeping your doctor' not the ONLY ONE?
Seems to me that at least some of the 'greedy' people out there want something 'for free'

 

I am seeing over $60/mo DECREASE in premiums for next year. It’s a great plan, not a junk plan. No copay at all. Very happy. The ACA caused all health plans to be better. None of this preexisting conditions, sorry Charley baloney like before ACA. Also called Obamacare. It was supposed to be a negative towards him, how that backfired. Lol as they say.

 

And notice many of the major medical insurance companies pulled out of many regions due to the high cost of meeting the requirements at reasonable premium levels. I just went through this with my wife for next year. Anthem, the least expensive major provider, was quite a bit more expensive and had lower ratings than a much smaller insurance company.

 

Our state experienced a similar situation a few years ago.

Insurers began pulling out of the market saying it was now impossible to provide medical coverage that met the new criteria at a price that was affordable to consumers. Cut rate Insurers with very bad reputations were the only ones providing Insurance

For our remaining child at home we ended up using a Christian Based Provider called Medi-Share - it is not really Medical Insurance in the traditional way but Catastrophic Medical Coverage if total cost exceeds $10,000 it will begin kicking in with graduated coverages.
It does provide some basic services like annual physicals free.

Things have gotten better once Obama's term ended and a new Administration took over.

 

Obamacare might be means tested, I do not know so I cannot compare it with my present COVERAGE/insurance/whatever.

I have a CFO for those things and she assures me that our plan is the best that people in my economic depth band can afford.
My brother has much better family coverage, but also has three times my salary.
A family friend whose net worth is an order of magnitude more than mine but is self employed has to make do with catastrophic insurance and cash-flowing 3-4 figure health expenses probably as a part of an HSA.....and one of the ACA plans?
Who knows?
I admit that I am necessarily ignorant about the ACA.
From what I can determine on the outside looking IN one has to have some kind of oracle, shaman, or naviguesser to penetrate the labyrinthine structure that makes up some parts of THAT government subsidized health care.

Is this 'assistance' free?
Are there commissions?
Performance incentives?

I WILL also say that my daily travels working for Big Bell take me through many of the neighborhoods that probably contain the homes of people that call themselves 'poor' or 'lower income.'
These neighborhoods are festooned with three kinds of signs this time of the year:
Left over political signs.
Payday Loan ads.
ACA signup ads.

THAT is a little.....um.....'curious' to me, personally.
That list is at least 66.667% driven by nothing short of something that looks, smells, and tastes TO ME like one group of people taking advantage of another.

YMMV....

 

The ACA requirements are so the person gets surgery, hospital stays, and other major expenses covered. Low cost plans, a person has to read and understand the fine print. The price is low for a reason, they don’t pay out. Without the ACA people were going bankrupt thinking a plan is a plan and they love it while nothing is happening to them health wise. The bandwagon of the ACA is a bad thing is long over. The elections were won by Obama, and they moved on to Benghazi, then Hillary’s emails, then Hunter Biden.