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How to improve the heat dissipation of high-voltage batteries

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by james wang 20, Oct 26, 2024.

  1. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    Hello everyone, I have a problem with the third generation high-voltage battery of my Prius. The fault code thrown means that the battery pack needs to be replaced. I am testing the capacity to replace the weaker unit. In the process, I found that all the units with problems appeared. In the middle part, I don’t know if it is a coincidence, so I thought that if a resistor of a certain value is connected in parallel to the three temperature probes, so that the ECU mistakenly thinks that the battery temperature is high and increases the fan speed, it may be possible to improve the heat dissipation problem of the battery unit. , this resistance value cannot be too high that it has no effect, nor is it too low that the ECU thinks the temperature is too high and throws a fault code. The resistance value needs to be selected during testing. Do you think it is feasible? Or have any suggestions, thank you.
     
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    two notes:

    1. if your observation was recent and your battery is still original, then you're seeing some commonly-reported issues for a battery near the end of its service life.

    2. Cleaning the battery cooling fan and associated ductwork delays the onset of these problems. Doing more of that works very well, and is a lot simpler than altering the temperature sensing mechanism.
     
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  3. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    If you replace the battery, you’ll be good for another 10 years without doing anything else to your battery again. What you are thinking to prolong the battery won’t be necessary once you replace it, that thought was something you missed out on a few years ago
     
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  4. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    Run your AC; Set you cabin temperature to 72F or 22C - that'll ensure a 22C breeze through your battery pack. Also keep your battery pack intake vent clear - NO bags, paper, blankets near the intake.

    Hope this helps...
     
  5. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Dr. Prius App and Hybrid Assisstant and one other method allows you to boost fan speed and yes the pack runs hotter in the middle than on the sides, which shortens module lifespan, second only to the modules on the end of the pack that has to deal with electricity first entering and final exiting of the pack.

    But more to the point, you probably have a module with a bad cell that will likely test normal as far as capacity/internal resistance, but if you point a simple thermal camera at the pack you'll see that hot cell that's soon to fail and needs to be replaced.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there's a thread here somewhere, where a guy fabbed some ductwork to get more air to the center of the pack.
     
  7. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    Thank you very much for your suggestions. This is not an original battery, and I don’t seem to have any original new batteries for sale here. If we count this time, I have repaired the battery pack for the third time, but with good luck, I can always find battery cells that are in good condition. During the inspection, I mainly tested the cell capacity. Last time, they were selected after almost 2ah. I have been using it for more than 2 years, and except for the obvious change in the internal resistance and capacity of one piece, everything else is pretty good. The second-hand batteries I purchased this time have relatively large capacities, so I raised the standard to 3.5ah. The way I measure it is to charge 5a to about 8.6v, some can reach 8.7v. If the voltage does not rise for a long time, it will be considered to be fully charged. Use a homemade 14a constant current source and fan for discharging. The discharge cut-off voltage is 6.4v, and if the time exceeds 15 minutes, it means that the capacity will not be less than 3.5ah. I hope it can be maintained as long as possible this time.
    After several practices, the bad unit is basically located in the middle, and the temperature probe is a thermistor with a positive temperature coefficient. The resistance is about 10k at 37 degrees Celsius. I want to test it by connecting a 30k or 25k resistor in parallel first. If the battery The actual temperature is 37 degrees, and the OBD display is 42 degrees. The fan should be able to rotate at this time. Keeping the fan working diligently may lower the temperature of the battery and extend its life.
    After this repair, the hybrid system fault light will light up again at some time in the future. If the owner of the car has not changed at that time, I may consider using lithium titanate batteries or sodium-ion batteries. Their voltage range spans It is as widespread as nickel metal hydride and can easily reach 20ah. If the capacity is large, the current of 50a is not difficult for these lithium batteries. You must know that even for a 10c battery with a capacity of 20ah, the standard current is 200a. If it works at low In the load area, heat and life can be guaranteed, and there is no need to design a specially designed heat dissipation solution. If you have time, they are very cheap, but you need to purchase additional insulating partitions, pole connectors, suitably sized and sturdy boxes, cables, and protectors. The amount of work is considerable, and the performance and longevity should be no problem.
     
  8. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    You want the Nexcell Sodium-ion battery.
    It's a huge improvement over the standard pack, and a
    noticable improvement over the lithium pack.

    If you run duct work from the side ac vent to the intake of the hybrid
    fan ducts you can blow nice cold air right into the hybrid cooling fan.

    What are the codes?

    You should check to see if the air intake is clogged, and if the fan is clogged.
    Toytota's system knows how much air to move over the battery. Adding resisters
    isn't needed.

     
  9. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    You can't fix a cell in the pack that is running hot, nor can you test the modules to find the bad cell because hot cells don't behave much differently than all the other cells, until they finally fail. You might have more than one too, because a pack that runs hot tends to cause more cells to run hot.

    The only way you're going to find this likely 1 cell out of 168 cells is to put a thermal imaging camera on it and see that it's way brighter than all the others. Most people who do home inspections own a thermal camera, or at the very least an inexpensive Seek Thermal camera that plugs into the USB port of your phone.
     
  10. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    Thank you for your reminder. I admit that I haven't thought of using a thermal imager to find damaged cells. I will buy one. A normal battery will also generate heat when working. The internal resistance of the battery multiplied by the current is its heat power. The drying of the electrolyte will increase the internal resistance, and heat will accelerate this process. The decrease in the capacity of the battery will make it easy to be filled. If it is already full and continues to be charged, a lot of heat will be generated. At this time, the charging power is completely converted into heat. High heat will aggravate the vicious cycle, so maintaining normal temperature is very important for all rechargeable batteries. Please forgive my unclear English description. The code is a fault code, which is what I want to express.
     
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    The heat signature of a healthy pack looks way more clean than an unhealthy pack. As for modules low on electrolyte, my suggestion has always been to use a scale to weigh them because the dehydrated ones, usually are the same ones that have vented from running too hot will be lighter.
     
  12. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    It's good to weigh in on the cell, I don't own it yet, probably I will buy it. With the tools I currently have, I have to do it the clumsy way of testing capacity, it's a waste of time, the only advantage is that it reflects the battery status very intuitively。
    Thank you very much for your reply. Can you tell me how many grams a cell in normal condition weighs?
     
  13. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    The goal with a battery pack is to match modules of similar age and use patterns and thus similar weight.
     
  14. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    It is difficult to find cells of the same batch, architecture, and factory year. When choosing cells, I prefer the second generation battery cells, which have a slightly lower voltage than the third generation, perhaps using different plate materials. The third generation cells are at 7.4v for a long time when discharged, while the second generation is 7.2v. Under the same current, the output power of the second generation will be a little smaller, but it is more solid, so I will give priority to the second generation cells, but finding it is already a difficult thing for now.
     
  15. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    WHY are you using cells that are at LEAST 15 years old? 14 at the youngest?
    Are you just doing it to have something to do? Because you are using a lot of time replacing
    and replacing and replacing old cells with old cells... and used at that.
     
  16. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    You should learn to be polite to others, whether they are rich or poor. It is good to buy new batteries, but not everyone will choose new ones compared to the price. Besides, who knows how many years the new battery has been sitting in the warehouse. Life is about constantly trying to learn. There is nothing wrong with taking time to do what you like. If you don't like my question, why not keep silent? Meaningless speeches and emotions have no practical effect.
     
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  17. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    It seems the op is trying to say people in Fiji often can’t afford to import new cells. As a result reusing old cells keeps the cars running. Which is fine as long as they can get parts in a dwindling supply situation.

    New cells from Toyota are in fact new due to demand and will last ten to fifteen years. The aftermarket lithium cells proved to be unreliable and dangerous so that company moved to a different chemistry hoping to stay in business.

    I suspect modifying the thermistors to make the fan run harder is technically possible but may cause codes when a normal temperature can never be achieved.
     
    #17 rjparker, Oct 28, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2024
  18. james wang 20

    james wang 20 Junior Member

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    You are a keen observer? That's great. I would very much like to speak for the people of Fiji, but frustratingly, I can't speak for anyone else. I'm just asking my own questions. I love where I live, but the economy is bad and there are few companies that offer repairs, so my options are limited. Scarcity makes things more expensive, and I don't want to invest too much money in my second-hand car. I'm glad you told me that Toyota batteries are new and not long-term stocks. I agree very much and admit that I misunderstood before. Regarding your answer that replacing the sensor may cause code errors, I will seriously consider it, perhaps replacing the parallel resistor with a thermistor of a certain resistance value, or abandoning this plan and finding ways to improve the air duct flow. Although you didn't say much, I can see that your precise, concise and implicit answer solves most of my problems. Thank you very much.
     
  19. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    You should learn to not be so sensitive, whether you are rich or poor.
    You're buying old used batteries. Again and again and again.
    Even new batteries sitting for years weakens them.
    Please feel free to play wack a mole all you want.

    And if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions, and you should stay silent.
    My meaningful statements have no emotions that you refuse to except.
    It's your time and money to waste.


    You should learn to be polite to others, whether they are rich or poor. It is good to buy new batteries, but not everyone will choose new ones compared to the price. Besides, who knows how many years the new battery has been sitting in the warehouse. Life is about constantly trying to learn. There is nothing wrong with taking time to do what you like. If you don't like my question, why not keep silent? Meaningless speeches and emotions have no practical effect.
     
  20. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Toyota has a robust system to mark the manufacturing dates on the modules as well as the assembled replacement packs.

    I agree with the rest of your post, but it is not difficult to reliably determine item freshness with Toyota batteries.

    Link to a thread on reading date codes