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Unnecessary (& rough) running ICE

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Fubar XIII, Jul 10, 2024.

  1. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    In the last two months my car has developed an ICE idle that is both rough and occurring when unwarranted.
    As we are used to, the ICE will start when the battery is low or when the throttle is depressed :)() enough or when speeds are high enough to warrant it. When it does so, it's still a smooth running engine and it kicks off as the software & conditions dictate. That's been well and good for over 285,000 miles and nearly 8 years.

    But now, a third condition has appeared, a rough "idle" that can actually be felt through the steering wheel & armrest as well as heard. It occurs intermittently, mostly at times when the ICE should be off (though occasionally when it is already running) such as when decelerating (approaching a red light/stop sign, foot off the throttle and more than 2 bars showing on the battery indicator) or when sitting at a complete stop where it sometimes kicks in and runs for several seconds (up to 30), again with a half full or more battery indicator. On more than one occasion it actually revved higher while at a complete stop or slowing towards one.

    There appears to be no commonality here other than it should not be running in those conditions nor has it ever been rough.
    Any thoughts, folks?
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    might be time for a health check of the hybrid battery
     
  3. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    At that mileage, I'd probably replace the entire ignition coil set and put some fuel injector cleaner in the tank. One or more bad or borderline coils would explain the intermittent rough idle. While swapping out the coils, I'd also look at the conditions of the spark plugs, since I'm there. There's lots of counterfeit parts out there.

    Hope this helps....

    Have you changed the ATF?
     
  4. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    I am approaching time to replace plugs. Hopefully, coils not needed. Fuel cleaner is on my list and hasn't been used in months, unusual for me. I'm putting nearly 1,000 miles/week on and haven't cleaned the tank yet this year. :eek::sick:
    It kind of feels like a odd sensor thing since it is so random. Most of the time the ICE runs smoothly as it always has but then this roughness overlays it occasionally under the weirdest situations.
    ATF has not been touched as it is sealed for life at the factory. I'm also nearing periodic maintenance on several areas, flushing the engine coolant & hybrid battery coolant among them. If plugs & cleaner don't do anything, I'll inquire at the dealership when I ask about PM @ 300k.

    Wait until I tell you how long the brakes lasted
     
  5. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    With the hv battery half full the hv battery should not be the immediate issue. If it was low it would cause the engine to run.

    A sticking open egr valve is a possibility. Normal egr valve status is closed at idle or low speeds but if the engine is trying to stall with an egr stuck open it will rev up as needed. An aftermarket egr or vacuum leak can cause similar problems. Sometimes a P0401 code will trip.

    You can monitor the map pressure and run an egr active test with Techstream.
     
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  6. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    I doubt it's a spark plug issue, since it's rare and intermittent. Seems more sticky mechanical or intermittent electronic hick-up.
    It took me 6 months to nail down an intermittent coil on my GMC. It started around 260K miles and I could feel the missing cylinder under load. No CEL or pending codes until it flat-out died. Really easy to troubleshoot when it doesn't fire at all.:D:LOL::ROFLMAO:

    FWIW: all fluids get changed every 100K miles on my cars. I consider it cheap maintenance insurance. No fluid last forever, especially since your pushing 300K. There's a drain and fill plug on the transmission/transaxle. Just thought you may want to dump out the metal filings at the bottom of the transmission.
     
  7. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    Stopped by one of the local dealerships yesterday. The info I got is NOT making me happy
    According to Golling Toyota in Warren, MI, the engine coolant, inverter coolant, and front differential fluid are all supposed to be replaced every 30,000 miles! And each service costs $270.
    My dealer in Bradenton, FL, told me 100,000 miles on coolant and that the tranny was sealed and was good for life.
    One of these is definitely off.
    A phone call to FL is going to be made. If they are wrong, all hell is going to rain down on them. If the local place is wrong, I will be doing a Karen impression there with the highest up the food chain person I can find. And then go somewhere else.
     
  8. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Good grief! There is a manual supplied with every Toyota that spells out the maintenance requirements. For a 2016 Prius major items in the US:
    IMG_5629.jpeg IMG_5630.jpeg IMG_5631.jpeg IMG_5633.jpeg IMG_5632.jpeg
     
  9. JohnPrius21

    JohnPrius21 Junior Member

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    Maybe try cleaning the throttle body and the mass airflow sensor.
     
  10. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    I actually read that entire 800 page manual - except the 15 pages in French - when I bought the car and have referenced it numerous times since. Haven't found it yet since the move, though (Oct. '23)

    Gotta love how the first item is to check the driver's floor mat. And third is check the wiper blades.
    And replacing the oil & filter, plus tire rotation & inspecting the air intake filter for the hybrid battery, is specified for every 5k miles in mine (I suspect you left those pages out)
    I replace plugs more often, about 80-100k.
    Had the engine & hybrid fluid replaced somewhere nearing 150k, if I recall correctly. Will attempt to confirm when I call FL dealer.

    I definitely appreciate the info, RJ. I'm going looking for that manual again. Going to beat the service tech with it. Maybe.
     
  11. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Go to Toyota.com and download like I did. Remember Canada and other countries will have different schedules which could be the miscommunication. However it’s well known many dealers push services early and will sell unnecessary services as well.
     
  12. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    Coolant change is excessive but understandable in Warren, MI - where they get hard freezes in the winter. FYI: Once the first coolant change is performed, subsequent coolant changes are at 50K mile intervals - per OEM manual.

    ATF fluid changes @ 30K miles is for automatic transmission in trucks and SUV that tows something on a regular basis. On a sedan that doesn't tow anything 60K-90K miles is the normal change interval. I think some of the early CVT's required 30K mile change intervals.

    Whenever someone tells me something is lifetime - the follow-up questions is:
    1. Who's lifetime ? Mine or a house fly????(n) Back in my high school days, any American car with over 100K miles on it was destined for the junk yard. IMHO; whenever an OEM states lifetime, they really mean "end of warranty period".
    2. Do you have it in writing somewhere? I need to look at that.

    Bottom line, It's your car, maintain it as you see fit.....
     
    #12 BiomedO1, Jul 14, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2024
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  13. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    Oh, you ain't kidding there, boyo! And it isn't just the dealerships, many of those chain repair places will do it too. I once saw an older guy, in his 70s, pay almost $70 to have his windshield wipers replaced when he came in to pick up his car after being serviced. $17.95 per wiper and $29.95 for putting them on, plus tax, of course. But they threw out the old ones for nothing. I buy mine online, about $3.50 each, average for all three. Takes about 30 seconds to do. Ringling was right, a sucker born every minute.
    Just another in a long list of reasons to be an informed person, whether it's car repair or voting or buying a house, do your due diligence or suffer for your stupidity.
     
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  14. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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  15. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    I contacted the service people in FL. I was told that, after 2014, CVTs are sealed at the factory and do not require any normal maintenance.
    I do not have that in writing, however. I still have not found the manual, because I haven't had time to look. Tomorrow morning/afternoon is pretty wide open and now I have a second item to find.

    Update: The "rough idle" has decreased in occurrence and duration but is still present. I've run three tanks of fuel system cleaner through it since the OP. BTW: It is not like a cylinder has dropped, not a dead/misfiring spark plug, more like something is slightly out of balance when it happens. Sorry if I was unclear previously. It also is not increasing the rpm anymore when it occurs. I am beginning to suspect a dirty sensor or some similar thing.
     
  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Egr sticking open occasionally. It is designed to be closed at idle. It can also be tested by monitoring the map sensor while forcing the egr open and closed with Techstream.
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    As previously mentioned, you can download the (PDF format) Toyota USA publication Warranty and Maintenance Booklet. There’s at least two sources; one being the Toyota Tech Info website, under the “manuals” tab. It is a very awkward format though, being event-by-event it’s impossible to see frequencies/patterns. I’ve made a spreadsheet format summary, with service rows and miles/months columns (attached).

    “I was told’s” from service writers are not a reliable. Toyota USA says nothing about a transaxle fluid change. They also say nothing about “sealed at the factory”. There are in-fact two removable bolts on the transaxle, for fill and drain. There is also a transaxle fluid change instruction in the repair manual (attached).
     

    Attached Files:

    #17 Mendel Leisk, Aug 4, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
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  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Looking through the transaxle fluid change instruction (posted above), it seems incredibly verbose/repetetive. I could have culled the “adjustment” and “inspection” sections. Anyway, towards the end, the basics of “replacement” are in there.

    I have seen another Toyota document, where they stress to only refill with freshly opened bottles (of Toyota ATF WS). In other words, don’t save left-over fluid for next time.
     
    #18 Mendel Leisk, Aug 5, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2024
  19. Fubar XIII

    Fubar XIII Member

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    A wee bit of a follow-up.
    The unnecessary revving almost always is before the engine warms fully.
    On the 300k mile PM work, I have spoken to more people and another dealership (Matick) and gotten some other useful info, I feel.

    The transmission. It is sealed and cannot have the level checked but it can and should be serviced every 100k (Yikes!)
    The hybrid battery/inverter coolant & engine coolant are due at 100k, not 150k (we knew that)
    The non-functioning TPMS sensor has to be replaced but is powered by battery. $170 each. Not going to bother, I know how to use a tire pressure gage and expect the other 3 will follow soon enough.
    The work at the 2nd dealership (we have 8 in Metro Detroit) is significantly less expensive than the 1st one referenced (Golling). The coolants are $80 less each ($190 vs $270). The tranny is $310 vs $500. It pays to shop around, 2nd opinions are great. The estimate from 2nd dealer is under $700, the 1st was over $1850.
    Going to make an appointment for the end of the month.
     
  20. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    Forgive me, I'm a bit confused....
    If the transmission is sealed and the level can't be checked, What's the service??? Stare at it for $310???
    It takes slightly less than 4 quarts of ATF, around $75. Remove the fill plug then the drain plug. Replace the drain plug and refill - CHECKING THE LEVEL, then replacing the fill plug. Less than an hour labor, so it should cost maybe $225-250. What is dealer labor rates now-a-days?