1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Auto-stop systems

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by bwilson4web, Apr 28, 2010.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,665
    15,664
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus


    The best way to start a new subject is with a fresh thread. Let me help:
    From gasser thread.

    Auto-stop systems, both manual and automatic, have a long history:

    • Forced Auto Stop (FAS) - modifications to ordinary cars to kill the engine, popular with manual transmission cars that can be 'bump started.'
    • Belt Assisted S(??) (BAS) - popular in GM 'mild' hybrids, it was a heavy duty alternator modified to work as both an alternator and ~5 hp motor. There was still a standard 12 V. system with starter for cold starts. This typically 48 V system handled engine stop and start automatically.
    • Euro drivers - there were wide spread reports that during the past, high fuel periods, Europeans often stopped their engines at lights and restarted them when the light turned.
    The problem is idling fuel burn is pretty modest compared to 'inertial losses.' Inertial losses are the amount of energy needed to accelerate the car to any reasonable speed. At idle, the fuel burn is what it takes to overcome engine friction and the duration compared to the trip is all but insignificant. Sure there are extreme cases where it might help, mostly it is "green wash."

    BTW, neither the Honda IMA nor Toyota/Ford systems are just auto-stop systems. The Honda IMA substantially improves the low-end torque of their engine while the Toyota/Ford systems provide substantial, vehicle motive power. The auto-stop is trivial but not the primary reason for their excellent mileage. This is why auto-stop systems are "green wash" and IMHO, terribly misleading to the just this side of a fraud.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Apr 28, 2010
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,602
    4,136
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    When done properly, they have value. Time at idle often produces extra pollution as most engines do not cleanly burn the extra lean fuel mixtures. Small displacement engines often idle roughly as they age so removing idle noise is a premium feature.

    But to do things properly the cars need bigger alternators or motor/generators to smoothly start the engine. For those of us in warmer climates it also requires electric ac so we can remain cool when stopped, and a larger battery to power it. Electric ac has other efficiency benefits. While your at it, why not make that motor/generator large enough to add some start up torque.

    The only things required to jump from this well designed auto start/stop is electronic assist power steering and regenerative braking. So I would expect most cars with auto stop/start to be mild hybrids in the future.
     
    #2 austingreen, Apr 28, 2010
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,665
    15,664
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    You brought up another good point, start-up pollution. Unless part of the design, most vehicles are horrible emitters when first started. Their goal is to get the engine running and then they enable any variable, emissions systems. Imagine a street full of gassers and diesels not designed to auto-stop. When the light turns green, the drivers start the cars and a belch of sooty start-up smoke rich in hydrocarbons would be the likely result . . . not a happy thought.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Apr 28, 2010
  4. Woodsyofthwest

    Woodsyofthwest Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2023
    4
    0
    0
    Location:
    salt lake city
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Interesting! So "popping the clutch" was an additional, deliberate design? Cool.
    (I wonder if I don't understand the thrust of bwilson's point, as the terminology, primarily the word '"stop," seems imperfect. [How often do you get asked if you're a friend of Bill's?])

    Writing today to ask if it makes sense for us to turn off Priuses (stylization?), or other vehicles, at lights, under most circumstances?

    There are surely threads elsewhere, but do they have well-informed engineers speaking? (Plus i didn't find one.)
     
    #4 Woodsyofthwest, Aug 26, 2024
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,144
    50,057
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i always turn mine off at lights, saves a few electrons. it's like florescent lighting vs incandescent
     
    #5 bisco, Aug 26, 2024
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Auto-Stop is already built into your Prius, so no need to do anything at lights. Auto-Stop is only about halting the gasoline engine from twirling and burning fuel, not about shutting down the entire ignition and electrical systems.

    Just don't put your Prius in B, which defeats the built-in Auto-Stop.
     
    #6 fuzzy1, Aug 26, 2024
  7. MAX2

    MAX2 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2024
    371
    88
    10
    Location:
    Third Rock from the Sun
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Unfortunately, when you stop on the road and the lights go out, there is a chance that someone will rear-end your car without noticing your car's red brake lights.
     
    #7 MAX2, Aug 27, 2024
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,144
    50,057
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    don't the brake lights work with the car off?
     
    #8 bisco, Aug 27, 2024
  9. MAX2

    MAX2 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2024
    371
    88
    10
    Location:
    Third Rock from the Sun
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    They don't work on their own.
    Keep your foot on the brake.
     
    #9 MAX2, Aug 28, 2024
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,144
    50,057
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    right, same when the car is ready
     
    #10 bisco, Aug 28, 2024
  11. bbrages

    bbrages Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2023
    113
    26
    0
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    My Pilot has stop/start. It's not uncommon. I don't like it.
     
    #11 bbrages, Sep 4, 2024
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)