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Knocking sound, rod bearing or torque converter etc.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Ship_shape, Feb 11, 2024.

  1. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    I’m thoroughly convinced now that the clogged EGR system is the root cause of my knocking but I’d also like to start with the diagnosis test mentioned by several, of blocking the egr pipe with a thin steel blade.

    As I understand when the test is performed and the egr flow is stopped , the knock/rattle stops. I thought that the clogging and restriction of EGR pathways is causing the problem , if I artificially make it worse by completely blocking the egr flow, why does that eliminate the knock/rattle ?

    Is the knock/rattle/misfire caused mostly by ‘uneven’ flow and distribution of the combustible egr gases to the cylinders caused by uneven clogging/ buildup in the intake ports ?

    Is this problem self healing, ie if allowed to persist until the egr system were 100% blocked with carbon , then the knock/rattling would stop, as per the diagnostic blade-in-EGR-pipe test ?

    Also what’s the standard shop charge for this repair ? I can imagine that most commercial shops would just replace the parts: intake Mai fold $200 , egr valve $300 for a final cost of $1000 for this job.
     
    #21 Ship_shape, Feb 22, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2024
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    My 2 cents: it’s typically head gasket failure, caused by EGR clogging. Cleaning the EGR system is always good, but overdue, won’t “reverse” the head gasket failure.
     
  3. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Egr cooler replaced and egr valve for $1k installed - manifold extra. Still won't fix it. Head gasket.
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  4. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    I’m trying understand the sequence, cause-effect so as to best analyze my situation. Does this sound right:

    1) this 2010-2015 naturally passes oil and carbon thru the EGR system to the cylinders

    2) as engine ages and piston rings loosen up the amount of oil , water vapor and Carbon increases and cause
    a) increased pressure in the cylinder which stresses the head gasket and
    b) deposits of oil and carbon crud on the walls of all the egr and intake manifold components.

    3) the uneven buildup in the intake manifold in particular causes uneven combustion which causes the knocking (as well as extra ordinary pressure on the head gasket).

    4) the crud buildup in the cooler, egr valve and pipe slow down and cause condensation of the vapors that would otherwise quickly flow through to the combustion chamber and be burned .

    Does that sound right ?
     
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    No oil, just carbon (aka soot). It also deposits lots of carbon along the way, in the EGR cooler/valve/pipe, intake manifold EGR passages and intake ports in the cylinder head. Any oil you see is due to the PCV system.
    Coming into the EGR system? Just possibly more soot, though copious amounts of soot can collect without the engine consuming oil. So I'd say no, the piston rings are not the only reason the exhaust is sooty, that's just the nature of exhaust.

    And again, think it through: how do you picture oil making it through the combustion chambers, without burning? They don't call them "combustion" chambers for nothing.

    Sentence fragment. Again, just soot.

    You're getting warm. But speaking of warm, I think that uneven build-up of soot on the EGR passages in the intake manifold causes the cylinder head to get warmer, asymetrically, with cylinder one end heating up sooner. And that end is where the head gasket starts leaking coolant into the cylinders. And that coolant causes knocking sound, pistons struggling against coolant, crankshaft fighting the damper between engine and transaxle.

    Too, as soon as the EGR cooler gets a decent coating of soot, does this reduce it's reason for existing, namely cooling? Does the soot insulate the fins? I'm thinking it can't help.

    The "school of thought" proposing to not "fuss" with cleaning till the Techstream reported flow rates are significantly dropped doesn't seem to consider this: the gas may still be flowing "ok", but it's temp is higher?

    See previous.

    @ChapmanF should be along shortly to clean up after me.

    Disclaimer: the above may be a little over the top; I had coffee with my pancakes this morning. :coffee:
     
    #25 Mendel Leisk, Feb 22, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2024
  6. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Cliff notes version

    1) this 2010-2015 naturally passes oil and carbon thru the EGR system to the cylinders

    10-14 have screwed up rings that clog and fail to flex usually after 125k miles. This starts blowby and oil consumption with thick carbon everywhere.

    2) as engine ages and piston rings loosen up the amount of oil , water vapor and Carbon increases and cause
    a) increased pressure in the cylinder which stresses the head gasket and
    b) deposits of oil and carbon crud on the walls of all the egr and intake manifold componen
    ts.

    Rings stick not loosen

    3) the uneven buildup in the intake manifold in particular causes uneven combustion which causes the knocking (as well as extra ordinary pressure on the head gasket).

    Carbon build up causes pinging which is worse under load. Knock sensor adjusts but clean engine does not have knocking at first.

    4) the crud buildup in the cooler, egr valve and pipe slow down and cause condensation of the vapors that would otherwise quickly flow through to the combustion chamber and be burned .

    Redundant and not a big issue.

    Issues:

    A. Bad ring design
    B. 10k mile oil changes stretch to 15k
    C. Bad egr design with intake before cat
    D. Oil burning and thick carbon by 175k sometimes 125k
    E. Bad cylinder cooling design
    F. Uneven cylinder cooling
    G. Large thermal cycling with engine idling or stop and go
    H. Narrow head gasket width between cylinder and not enough black sealant coating
    I. Likely bad water pump speed control software not updated on most 10-14 ecus.
    J. Same ecu update improved egr valve logic

    *All changed in gen4 and B becomes a non factor*

    Once a very small coolant leak starts, a plug gets fouled overnight by cooling system pressure.

    Engine starts and misfire causes transaxle damper to slip causing ‘rod’ mechanical noise typically misdiagnosed by mechanics unless familiar with Prius hg symptoms.

    Engine burns off fouling coolant and runs fine. Early on the hg leak is sealed quickly as the engine runs and warms up. Maybe does not repeat for days or weeks.

    Gets progressively worse leak such that late stage it happens every day and then every engine off on at lights etc. Coolant drops noticeably.

    Turn off the lights the party is over.
     
    #26 rjparker, Feb 22, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2024
  7. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    Omg, Thank goodness I only paid $600 for the car ! I guess I’ll start with a compression test and check for coolant in the cylinders. Maybe I can coax some more miles out of this engine. TBD.

    Whatever the outcome, I’m glad I came across this issue because I also own a 2012 plugin with 52k miles , there is time yet to do the required EGR cleaning.
     
  8. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    Today, shaking/rattling Prius status.

    1. - swapped in 4 known good ignition coils . No change.

    2. - swapped in 4 new Toyota Denso iridium spark plugs. Rattle gone, except a tiny bit on startup.

    3. -Swapped back in the original 4 ignition coils . Rattle still gone , same as 2.

    4.— Cleared codes and drove around for 15 minutes. No new codes but 4 codes remain and marked ‘permanent’:

    P0301 —cyl1 misfire
    P0351 — ignition coil A primary/secondary
    P0352 — ignition coil B primary/secondary
    P0354 — ignition coil D primary/secondary

    Preliminary Conclusion , plugs were bad.

    Next steps:
    - clean the EGR system
    - do a compression test on the 4 cylinders
     
  9. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    "Preliminary Conclusion , plugs were bad."
    That's funny! :rolleyes:

    Next step:
    Replace head gasket.....

    Do a pressure text, I'd bet you'd find coolant leaking into the #1 and #2 cylinders...
     
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  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The P0301 does just broadly indicate a misfire for any of the possible reasons, but the P035x codes do suggest there was something to do with the ignition system.
     
  11. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    Hey, I’m just reporting the facts, installing new plugs definitely restored the 2010 Prius (167k miles) to ‘normal’ , there is now none of that violent rattle at startup that disappears as rpm’s climb.

    Before I put things back together on my 2012 w 57k miles , I should have installed that bad set of plugs just to see if they cause the same misfire and rattle. Maybe I’ll do that just for the heck of it.

    There is a post somewhere here on PC where the person emphasizes to not spend any money or time on a situation where misfiring is involved without first replacing the plugs and possibly coils. It’s too early to rule out a Hg but those new plugs sure make a big difference.
     
    #31 Ship_shape, Feb 26, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
  12. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    New plugs often burns off the coolant fast for a week or two.
     
    Brian1954 likes this.
  13. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    Today I borrowed a Milwaukee bore scope and looked at the four pistons after they sat overnight. They all looked dry , no evidence of shiny wet surfaces. I had to take pictures of the image on the borescope screen. After that I started it and it started and ran smooth.

    Tomorrow , I should be able to complete the compression test, had to order a tester that would fit the Prius.

    IMG_8120.jpeg IMG_8123.jpeg IMG_8126.jpeg IMG_8129.jpeg
     
    #33 Ship_shape, Feb 27, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
  14. Ship_shape

    Ship_shape Junior Member

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    Bought the $16 gauge set from Amazon and did a compression test on the warm engine today. All cylinders were very close to 75 psi. Probably the gauge isn’t accurate but the fact that all cys are the same is promising.

    IMG_8157.jpeg IMG_8158.jpeg IMG_8159.jpeg IMG_8160.jpeg