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Featured Why repairing your BEV is so expensive—WSJ

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Dec 4, 2023.

  1. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    A doctor, I know, paid $15K to replace the battery pack on his first gen Tesla - peanuts to the $100K+ he spent to buy it.:notworthy::oops::rolleyes::sleep: As an early adopter; I think he still gets free (not so free) lifetime charges @ Tesla chargers.

    As far as appliances go; I usually just replace. I bought a used/refurbished Lady Kenmore washing machine. Top of the line, for less than $300. Used it for 15 years and replaced the plastic pump assembly, $25, once. I think the heavy bleaching of my clothes ate a hole in the seam of the plastic pump. I gave it away to some cousins, going to graduate school. It got replaced 8 years ago, with a Samsung front loader, supposedly saves water. Same used appliance outfit for less than $300; they were around $1K at the time. Wish I knew about the smell; if you don't leave the door open and allow it to dry out on it's own. If/when this one fails, I think I'm going back to a top loader.
     
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  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Anecdotal.
    Still , dovetailing into traction packs, found an intriguing chart showing cost to replace batteries.

    Screenshot_2023-12-06-07-46-10-29_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg

    We are talking warranty work typically and that's roughly 1%.
    Metrics is somewhat convoluted but it seems to indicate the more batteries under warranty that have to be replaced - the greater the manufacturer charges for the battery.

    Updated: Electric Car Battery Replacement Costs in 2023

    Thus older cars have more battery replacements - thus they cost less to replace - if i understand correctly (& don't mind getting schooled otherwise )
    Wish I could find new models cost & percentages of short block replacement under warranty for comparison.
    The article above links to another good read, that describes degradation & all the dynamics that affect that

    How Batteries Degrade in Electric Cars

    So - if a manufacturer is charging up the Wazoo per kWh (400/kWh example) in a small ev, you could have a huge pack that costs less to replace if/when it's per kWh is $125. Removability labor costs per hour then factor in. There are videos showing Model S packs that come out remarkably in just a few minutes.
    .
     
    #22 hill, Dec 6, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2023
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Found a bunch of ice comparisons to replace an engine. These prices of don't include shipping it to you which can run hundreds nor does it include the thousands for install;
    2019 Engine Replacement Costs | Labor Costs - Bridwell Automotive

    Seems prices are Sky High for both. So ..... The takeaway is you better shop around
    .
     
  4. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    May be. But how does a battery last 20 years, like a well cared for ICE engine?
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Right, like you wouldn't have had to do a valve job & numerous other maintenance things in that ¼million miles that most people would rack up on the same 20-year-old ice? Sorry but that many miles before replacement just doesn't wash.
    .
     
  6. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    How about a 50 year old BEV barn find?
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Ask Jay Leno as I understand he has an oldie that's seen 100 years.
    ;)
    .
     
  8. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    With ICE there are still a lot of good options. I know I can get a JDM engine with low miles for my 2006 Prius for as little as $1,200, possibily less. And the last time I checked what a new block cost for the Prius it wasn't much more than $2,000 or so IIRC. Picking larger luxurious engines isn't a fair comparison, because the person looking to replace an engine or battery is looking to save money and likely bought an economy car.

    Rebuilding an engine for a couple thousand is (was) also a possibility. With a 200,000 miles 15-year-old battery the wear parts that need to be replaced is essentially the entire battery. I highly disagree that rebuilt batteries are worth the time, effort or money. Although I will say that on modern cars they now make them impossible to rebuild by making paper thin cylinder linings.

    I was interested in rebuilding the battery on my Leaf with cylinderical cells and wanted to add some sort of cooling. But I realized it was a much bigger task than me rebuilding engines like I had before. That, and the greater danger or frying myself.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus.
    • 167 mi @80%, 63F
    • 209 mi ~= 167 / 80% projected 100% range
    • 240 mi new range
    • (209 - 240) / 240 ~= -13% battery degradation
    • 120,270 mi, 4.75 years old
    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. scona

    scona Active Member

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    My Kia Niro EV is just $100.00/ year more and it is a 6 year newer vehicle.
     
  11. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The industry-standard life expectancy for EV batteries is 800 cycles, although LFP-cathode batteries lasting for much longer. Is yours NCM- or LFC-cathode?

    800 cycles × 300 miles = 240,000 miles = 24 years @ 10,000 miles a year

    So, the useful life of a BEV battery should be longer than the useful life of the entire car for most people.
     
    #31 Gokhan, Dec 8, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2023
  12. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    The average miles per year for most people is more than 15,000 miles, IIRC. But still, that would mean you would get 16 years out of it, assuming the battery lasts the industry standard. That would be more than the average life of the average vehicle (around 12 years and 200,000 miles).

    But I still feel there is some uncertainty, at least for me. 240,000 is not guaranteed. It's possible, maybe even probable. But at the end of the day, if a $15,000 (or more) battery needs replacement on a car with over 10 years or 100,000 miles on it, that would probably mean it's the end of the line even if it's only 100,001 miles or 120,000 miles, or 11 years, etc.

    On the other hand, cars in general are becoming a pain like this anyway. Like my friend who got a less-than-100,000 mile 5-year-old car (Ford Escort) and the transmission died 3 months later and cost $9,000 to replace. Thinking of the what-ifs is kind of scary. Older cars are easier and cheaper to work on and there's a whole lot more history about what's good and bad about them to help make an informed decision. You have no guarantee that your Tesla will still be running in 12 years. You might have a situation of a $15,000 or so repair bill on a car worth half that that you might as well as take to the dump. Or you could still have plenty of life left in it in a car still worth a decent value if you were to sell it or it got stolen or totaled.

    An old 1990's or earier vehicle you also don't have the guarantee. But it doesn't take much to understand what makes them tick, and what it would cost to fix it if it did die. The costs are more certain, something many have done time and time again.
     
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I believe it is listed as Nickel, Manganese, and Cobalt (NMC.)

    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    But how many cycles are expected when you don't fully cycle the battery. Say, you normally cycle it from 25% to 75% and only rarely fully cycle it?

    Mike
     
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  15. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Exact number will vary with the chemistry, architecture, and manufacturer. Nevertheless, deep-discharge cycles are harder. Moreover, DC fast charging is super hard on the battery, and it should only be used when it is necessary. With DC fast charging in half hour or faster (2C-rate or higher), I believe you only get about 50–100 deep cycles of life. I would only use it during road trips. Or perhaps limit it to 2-hour (C/2-rate) charging at the fastest.

    So, yes, despite all the hype, BEV-battery technology is still far from being mature. It will probably take ten–fifteen years from now to mature.
     
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  16. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    If that were actually true, wouldn't there be numerous Tesla owners complaining that their batteries failed after just 15K - 30K miles? (300 mile range multiplied by 50 to 100 cycles at a Supercharger). If just 1% of owners only have charging access at fast chargers, that would be about 40 or 50 thousand owners (assuming about 4 or 5M sold so far)

    Mike
     
  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    This is for Tesla NCA-cathode batteries:

    Fast-charging damages electric-car batteries | UC Riverside news

    Again, it will depend on the cell chemistry, architecture, and manufacturer. Also, there is DC-fast-charging, and there is DC-fast charging. 1-hour charges (less than 1C-rate) probably don't affect the cycle life that much, but frequent 15-minute charges (close to 4C-rate) could be detrimental to cycle life.
     
    #37 Gokhan, Dec 11, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2023
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    CAUTION: EVreporter.com

    LTO - Lithium Titanate (LTO) Cells

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. sylvaing

    sylvaing Senior Member

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    #39 sylvaing, Dec 11, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2023
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    So much nonsense in this thread. The fact is that most ev’s go way beyond the average car lifecycle with little battery degradation.
     
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