1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured Toyota chairman says people are finally seeing the reality about EVs

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Oct 25, 2023.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    4,959
    1,950
    0
    Location:
    Paramount CA
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Limited
    Toyota Chairman Says People Are Finally Seeing the Reality About EVs
    Akio Toyoda’s comments come amid cooling U.S. demand and a price war with China

    By River Davis
    Updated Oct. 25, 2023 11:38 am ET

    [​IMG]
    Toyota Motor’s FT-Se concept car at the Japan Mobility Show 2023 in Tokyo. PHOTO: FRANCK ROBICHON/SHUTTERSTOCK

    TOKYO—Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda, when asked about electric-vehicle challenges including a recent lull in U.S. demand, said the industry was coming to recognize that there isn’t a single answer to reducing carbon emissions.

    “People are finally seeing reality,” Toyoda said Wednesday, speaking in his capacity as the head of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.

    Toyoda, who stepped down this year as Toyota chief executive after nearly 14 years on the job, has long said the auto industry should hedge its bets by continuing to invest in hybrid gasoline-electric cars and other options beyond just electric vehicles.

    As EV sales momentum lags behind in the U.S. and more buyers gravitate to hybrids, he may be enjoying an “I told you so” moment.

    “There are many ways to climb the mountain that is achieving carbon neutrality,” Toyoda told a small group of reporters at the Japan Mobility Show, formerly the Tokyo Motor Show, which is opening this week for the first time in four years.

    From Tesla to Ford Motor, automakers in recent months have been issuing warnings about a sudden slowdown in consumer demand for EVs, which are generally more expensive than traditional gasoline-powered cars and need to be recharged regularly, posing challenges for some drivers.

    Higher interest rates are making them more unaffordable for many buyers, and despite increasing discounts on plug-in models, unsold inventory is starting to stack up at dealerships.

    The pullback in buyer interest is a worrisome sign for an industry that is sinking billions of dollars in new factories and battery-making facilities and is facing tougher regulations on tailpipe emissions globally.

    In the latest sign that car companies are walking back their plans, General Motors and Honda Motor said Wednesday that they are ditching a partnership forged a year-and-a-half ago aimed at developing a line of lower-priced EVs.

    [​IMG]
    Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda at the Japan Mobility Show. PHOTO: RIVER DAVIS/THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

    The automakers had expected to produce millions of cars fitted with GM’s Ultium batteries, a proprietary technology that the Detroit automaker has promoted as the mechanical backbone of its future EVs.

    GM executives have said developing more affordable EVs is critical to broadening their appeal, and scaling up their battery technology, including through partnerships with other automakers, is one way to help reduce costs.

    GM also this week abandoned a self-imposed target to build 400,000 EVs by mid-2024, citing growing uncertainty in the EV market and the need to ensure it can build these new models profitability.

    Japanese automakers, most prominently Toyota, have been more vocal than their Western peers about the challenges EVs face in the near term, including high costs, resource crunches and limited charging infrastructure.

    In China, the world’s largest car market by vehicle sales, Western and Japanese companies face a host of local challengers and an EV price war.

    While the early stages of the EV revolution shake out, Toyota and others have been leaning on hybrid vehicles as a bridging technology and studying the operations of front-runners including Tesla and China’s BYD. Toyota’s current CEO, Koji Sato, has said the carmaker will accelerate development of parts and manufacturing methods optimized for EVs.

    At the Tokyo event, Japanese automakers showcased an array of concept EVs, many of which aren’t due in showrooms until the latter half of the decade.

    Toyota displayed two EV concept cars due for release after 2026, as well as an electric pickup truck and a version of its Land Cruiser expected to launch within the next few years. Honda Motor’s joint venture with Sony showed off a prototype of its Afeela EV due to be delivered in 2026.

    The handful of foreign automakers at the show—including BYD, Mercedes-Benz and BMW—all showed electric models that consumers can buy today, at least in some countries.

    With their slower rollouts, Japanese brands await judgment on whether they failed to catch the wave in time or correctly read the general population’s readiness to make the EV shift.

    One favorable sign for Toyota: Its head of sales in North America said recently the market for hybrids is “smoking hot” and the company is trying to make as many of the vehicles as possible. Last month, Toyota had a little more than a week’s worth of Prius hybrids in stock, compared with more than two months’ supply of its electric SUV, the bZ4X.

    “I have continued to say what I see as reality,” said Toyoda. Someone needs to convey to the industry what will make car buyers most happy, he said, and “if regulations are created based on ideals, it is regular users who are the ones who suffer.”

    EV sales rose 49% globally in the first half of this year, down from the previous year’s 63% growth, according to market-research firm Canalys. Of all EVs, 55% were sold in China, where foreign automakers are increasingly being wedged out by local manufacturers.

    In the U.S., some dealers say the first wave of buyers willing to try an EV has passed and remaining buyers are deterred by high sticker prices and the limited range of many EV models.

    General Motors said last week it was delaying the opening of an electric pickup-truck factory in Michigan. The Wall Street Journal also reported that Ford Motor was considering cutting a work shift at the plant where it builds its electric F-150 Lightning pickup as demand for the truck falters.

    Meanwhile, hybrid sales have taken off in the U.S., growing at a faster clip than the broader U.S. car market. That uptick has also prompted other automakers, like Ford and Nissan Motor, to shift more resources to promoting their hybrids and plug-in hybrid offerings.

    Toyoda said the concept vehicles at the Japan show were the product of Japanese automakers taking time to work with battery makers and think about what is possible in EVs. He said the Japanese industry’s strength in the EV era will come from practical car making “over a long period of time and from experiences of failure.”

    Write to River Davis at [email protected]
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    wow, toyota still spewing nonsense. who do they think is listening?
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Since enthusiasts are still stuck focusing on the "EV market", why does it matter?

    It was quite obvious the over-promise-under-deliver automaker would retain its reputation. It was also obvious that foundational automaker would fall into the enthusiast trap. At some point, reality would set in and the priorities Toyota has... rebuild from what the pandemic had taken and fortify a solid source of profit to weather the transition... while at the same time establish, then refine designs appealing to the masses.

    Dismissal from the impatient and distraction from the poorly informed don't make any difference.
     
  4. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    For the US market, I read this as a fight between production and distribution.

    China isn't saddled with a dealer network actively sabotaging EV sales the way the USA is.

    That'll have some interesting consequences once they eventually get some USA distribution.
     
  5. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    4,959
    1,950
    0
    Location:
    Paramount CA
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Limited
    Didn't you just buy a brand-new Camry Hybrid, @bisco? ;)
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    agreed, what does it matter? and yet, toyota keeps talking out of both sides of their mouth. you can bring other auto makers into the conversation if you want, but that's just a distraction from the subject at hand.

    i did, and was interested inthe new prime, and also the bz4x.

    but none of that has anything to do with what you posted.

    so true. i have had nothing but a bad experience with the chevy dealer i am buying my bolt from. they resent the ev push by gm, and it is obvious that they don't want to sell ev's.

    otoh, i had a very similar experience buying our new hycam recently. dealers are just bad. period.
     
    #6 bisco, Oct 26, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2023
    hill, austingreen and Trollbait like this.
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The EV market was hot for several years. Their sales were growing while the rest of the market was dropping. I would think some slow down EV sales is not surprising. Has their market share dropped, leveled off, or is it still growing?
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    idk about market share, but weren't q3 tesla sales up, year over year?
     
  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Agreed. They've all become powerful enough (each, or within "auto groups") to fight off legal and regulatory challenges and do their own political lobbying at least at State levels.

    It's really no wonder that Tesla is so successful. It's not the energy source, it's not the greenie points. It's not the luxury features.

    It's the fact you don't have to go to a dealer.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    and they make a great car at an amazing price
     
  11. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Well I kind of disagree with you on that. I still read about waaaay too many build quality and repairability problems to call them "great cars" and the most amazing thing I see in their prices is how high they've been.

    ...but that doesn't take away from the prior point:

    I see people willing to put up with crappy builds and sky-high prices, just to avoid dealers.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i take all that with a grain of internet salt. i know a lot of people around here with teslas, and they have zero issues.
    and in their chatrooms, you see the same stuff as toyota.

    wall street is too invested in tesla, for and against, i ignore the noise.
    our test drive was very impressive compared to our new hycam, and at 39k - 11k tax creit here in ma, 7k cheaper.
     
  13. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Looking into dealer vs. non-dealer distribution, I have to think that automakers who use dealers are going get creamed once there are a few more brands available factory-direct.

    I suppose that's a billionaires vs. multi-millionaires sort of battle. At least I can afford some popcorn. :whistle:
     
  14. John321

    John321 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2018
    1,285
    1,275
    0
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    In a way this alternate method of car buying is available to the buyer right now.
    Car buying services and Car Brokers to a degree take the Dealer out of the picture and puts the buyer in a position of power.

    To sell a car with a Buying Service or Broker the Car Dealer must agree to put all shenanigans and monkey shines off the table and abide by the Services rules.

    Many people will argue this but having bought a car through Edmonds New Car Buying Service we had 3 Dealers competing with each other to gain our business and submitting legally binding offers on the vehicle we wanted. Admittedly this was in 2019 not 2023.

    There are alternatives to participating in monkey shines with a Car Dealership.

    The Best Car-Buying Services in 2023 (clark.com)

    How To Use A Car Broker To Buy Your Next Vehicle (jdpower.com)

    Car-Buying Services: What To Know - NerdWallet
     
    #14 John321, Oct 26, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2023
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    unfortunately, buying services don't work as well when demand outstrips supply, as i found out this summer.
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Reminder of Tesla's purpose... to accelerate the expansion of sustainable and renewable energy.

    In other words, an advantage for the business may not necessarily translate to an advantage for a particular product-line... like vehicles.
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,132
    50,049
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    it may not, but it may. as people recognize the growing tesla charging infrastructure, it may (and has) influence their buying decisions
     
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    That sounds nice, but honestly I think they just want to sell a lot of batteries.
     
  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,340
    3,596
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The point for Toyota to realize, forget about climate change, there is relatively large anti-BigOil sentiments is USA. I am personally OK with Toyota hybrids, but a good many here feel hybrids/Toyota are unethical due to use of gasoline, even though less, still allows US BigOil to exist.